Anti-grappling.

[Hanzou]

Its laughable that you believe any technique being good or bad is anything other then an opinion. Did it work? Yep video shows it clearly worked.

So you think any technique performed on a (overly) compliant partner works? :uhohh:

You must be a big fan of George Dillman. :lol:

Would it work in real life who knows it could.

It wouldn't. Its already been explained numerous times by several people other than me why that's the case.

 

[K-man]

So you think any technique performed on a (overly) compliant partner works? :uhohh:

You must be a big fan of George Dillman. :lol:

It wouldn't. Its already been explained numerous times by several people other than me why that's the case.

I am a big fan of George Dillman. His work was groundbreaking 30 years ago. He has produced some really good videos helping people to understand kata and he did a lot of police training back then. That doesn't mean all of his stuff is relevant or in some cases even valid, but to put Dillman himself down after what he has contributed demonstrates your lack of appreciation for pioneers of the martial arts. Again you post an offensive comment for no reason at all. Is it a lack of maturity or are you just that sort of person that has to belittle people?

 

[ballen0351]

So you think any technique performed on a (overly) compliant partner works? :uhohh:

You must be a big fan of George Dillman. :lol:

Again you don't know that. Would it work on an experienced grappler probably not. Would it work on a nOT so experienced person it sure could. I've seen some crazy stuff happen. The only absolute in fighting is there is no absolute. If it was alway the better techniques that won then we wouldn't have upsets in fighting

It wouldn't. Its already been explained numerous times by several people other than me why that's the case.

Yep everyone gave their OPINIONS still isn't a fact it couldn't work matter how hard you pray to the tap out gods

 

[Steve]

Tony really did a nice job of detailing the issues with the technique. But, I'm lost. Are you guys suggesting that Hayes technique, as demonstrated, is one you would recommend? Are you suggesting that he is teaching techniques from a position of authority? Should he be? Do you think that people who are not grapplers, the likely audience of his instruction, are competent to distinguish between good technique and bad?

Ultimately, the point drop bear made is a salient one:

This whole thread is designed towards a greater understanding of what is wrong. More specifically people who can't grapple teaching people to anti grapple.

Emphasis mine. This is the crux of the entire situation. The students don't have to be or aspire to be expert grapplers. But, if the instructor is teaching grappling, he should know what the heck he's talking about. And if he doesn't, he should say so.

And by definition (the one we all agree on), anti-grappling is really just a subset of grappling.

 

[ballen0351]

Tony really did a nice job of detailing the issues with the technique. But, I'm lost. Are you guys suggesting that Hayes technique, as demonstrated, is one you would recommend?

I dont think anyone said it was good, or the prefered method. Even he said it was more of a last resort after other things have failed. Im just saying its not a "Fact" that its crap. Its not a"fact" it would never be effective and could "Never" work.

Are you suggesting that he is teaching techniques from a position of authority? Should he be?

Reading his bio he seems to believe he is. So "should" he be? I have no Idea it may not be grappling in the style you know but it may be perfectly acceptable for his style

Do you think that people who are not grapplers, the likely audience of his instruction, are competent to distinguish between good technique and bad?

your taking abig leap thinking people in his audience dont know whats good or not. We are basing our judgement off of a small you tube clip not the entire class. Perhaps his form or posture or hand placement is off because hes busy talking while teaching, or maybe he was just having an off day, or maybe he just doesn't care and wants $. I dont know enough about him or the class

Ultimately, the point drop bear made is a salient one:
Emphasis mine. This is the crux of the entire situation. The students don't have to be or aspire to be expert grapplers. But, if the instructor is teaching grappling, he should know what the heck he's talking about. And if he doesn't, he should say so.
.

Reading some of the info on Hayes since I dont know much about him but it looks like he believes hes an expert in his style and in the grappling thats within his style. His style is different then yours. Grappling is a huge broad thing. BJJ grappling is different then Judo grappling which is different then Goju grappling which is different then Hapkido, wrestling, ect so whos to say he doesnt know what hes talking about? I never once heard him say he was teaching anything other then his ownstyle

 

[Hanzou]

So we tried the Toshindo technique in class today, and its actually worse than I anticipated it to be. I had a three stripe white belt get into guard, and I told him to attempt to counter whatever I do. I performed the technique, and he was in mount before I even hit the mat. He hit mount even faster than I thought he would!

I showed the video to my instructor (a three stripe black belt), and he said it was literally one of the worst guard pass attempts he's ever seen.

My instructor then tried to perform the technique on another white belt who had no idea what we were doing, and again, the white belt almost instantly shot into mounted position.

We had a pretty good laugh about the whole thing.

 

[ballen0351]

So we tried the Toshindo technique in class today, and its actually worse than I anticipated it to be. I had a three stripe white belt get into guard, and I told him to attempt to counter whatever I do. I performed the technique, and he was in mount before I even hit the mat. He hit mount even faster than I thought he would!

I showed the video to my instructor (a three stripe black belt), and he said it was literally one of the worst guard pass attempts he's ever seen.

My instructor then tried to perform the technique on another white belt who had no idea what we were doing, and again, the white belt almost instantly shot into mounted position.

We had a pretty good laugh about the whole thing.

Style bashing is against the rules here. Also how much training in Toshindo do you have? If all you have is the 3 min YouTube clip that's hardly enough to judge a technique

 

[Hanzou]

Style bashing is against the rules here. Also how much training in Toshindo do you have?

Where did I bash the style? I'm pointing out a faulty technique whose purpose is to counter my style of grappling. Also leg locks are hardly exclusive to Toshinden.

If all you have is the 3 min YouTube clip that's hardly enough to judge a technique

And yet almost every grappler who responded to this thread is in agreement that the technique is flawed.

It even got the Martial Fail of the week;

Martial Arts Fail of the Week: How A Ninja Passes the Guard | Cagepotato

 

[ballen0351]

Where did I bash the style? I'm pointing out a faulty technique whose purpose is to counter my style of grappling. Also leg locks are hardly exclusive to Toshinden.



And yet almost every grappler who responded to this thread is in agreement that the technique is flawed.

It even got the Martial Fail of the week;

Martial Arts Fail of the Week: How A Ninja Passes the Guard | Cagepotato

Oh well if every internet bad *** in the world agrees it's the fail of the week it must be true. Who am I to argue with a site called cage potato. Lol

I didn't know the Guard was "your" style of grappling

 

[Hanzou]

Again you don't know that.

I don't know what? That the partner was over compliant? You can tell he was in the opening of the video where he winces from a knee to the butt in an overally exaggerated fashion.



Oh how I wish someone would plant there hands on the mat like that for me.....:lol:

Would it work on an experienced grappler probably not. Would it work on a nOT so experienced person it sure could. I've seen some crazy stuff happen. The only absolute in fighting is there is no absolute. If it was alway the better techniques that won then we wouldn't have upsets in fighting

What would be your definition of a "not so experienced grappler"? I had a white belt with about three months worth of training completely counter this technique on my instructor. A person with no grappling experience is highly unlikely to get you in a hold that would require you to counter him with a sophisticated leg lock. The argument that these techniques are designed for unskilled grapplers is complete nonsense, and its only made when these "anti-grappling" techniques from non-grapplers are proven to be ineffective.

Yep everyone gave their OPINIONS still isn't a fact it couldn't work matter how hard you pray to the tap out gods

I think my instructor said it best: The only way that guard pass would work is if you fell asleep and purposely let the guy roll your legs into a leg lock.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I dont think anyone said it was good, or the prefered method. Even he said it was more of a last resort after other things have failed.

As I mentioned, I'm more concerned that his "first resorts" before he moved on to the technique in question were seriously, seriously flawed.

I have no Idea it may not be grappling in the style you know but it may be perfectly acceptable for his style

Well, it's his style that he invented, so by definition anything he shows is "perfectly acceptable for his style." He could decree that the proper way to defeat a puncher is to repeatedly bash your own nose into the other guys fist and that would become the official "correct" Toshindo method. That wouldn't make it any good. For the record, Steve's primary background is in the Bujinkan, but the ground methods he is showing are not derived from the Bujinkan arts. It's his own stuff that he made up himself.

Grappling is a huge broad thing. BJJ grappling is different then Judo grappling which is different then Goju grappling which is different then Hapkido, wrestling, ect so whos to say he doesnt know what hes talking about? I never once heard him say he was teaching anything other then his ownstyle

BJJ is my primary focus these days, but from my perspective grappling is grappling. Different arts focus on different aspects of the whole based on the context they are training for, but to me they are just different facets of the same enormous beautiful gem. I have trained with practitioners of Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Tai Chi, Danzan Ryu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali, JKD, Muay Thai, Aikido, Jukado, Toshindo, Systema, MMA, Karate, and more, and learned from all of them. (I've also spent time studying video of other grappling arts that I haven't had the chance to study in person.) If something works, it works. I have no problem giving credit to other styles even when they are focusing on a different aspect of grappling than I am. I am saying that, based on my experience grappling hundreds of people with a huge variety of body types, experience and styles, the stuff Steve is showing in this video is barely one step above "pummel the other guys fist with your nose."

I think this is a shame. As I've said, Steve Hayes is a talented guy with excellent teaching skills. If he took the time to understand the basics of ground grappling, he would do a great job of teaching it.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't know what?

That it will or won't work in real life

That the partner was over compliant? You can tell he was in the opening of the video where he winces from a knee to the butt in an overally exaggerated fashion.

Yep that's how demos work. It's hard to explain and perform a technique to a class of your partner is resisting. However since all we have is a 3 min short clip and we were not in the class to see what else happened

What would be your definition of a "not so experienced grappler"?

Lol ummmm someone that doesn't train in grappling. I didn't think it was that tough to figure out

I had a white belt with about three months worth of training completely counter this technique on my instructor. A person with no grappling experience is highly unlikely to get you in a hold that would require you to counter him with a sophisticated leg lock. The argument that these techniques are designed for unskilled grapplers is complete nonsense, and its only made when these "anti-grappling" techniques from non-grapplers are proven to be ineffective.

You do understand BJJ is not the only way right? I mean I know anyone can spend 25 bucks a month to watch your schools internet BJJ classes and be a skillef BJJ persin but there are other ways to grapple. You enjoy BJJ that great but it's not the only way.

I think my instructor said it best: The only way that guard pass would work is if you fell asleep and purposely let the guy roll your legs into a leg lock.

Well that's great your instructor is smart enough to watch a 3 min YouTube clip then talk crap behind someone's back that's not present to defend himself on a technique your instructor knows nothing about. Sounds like a swell guy

 

[ballen0351]

As I mentioned, I'm more concerned that his "first resorts" before he moved on to the technique in question were seriously, seriously flawed.

Well since he really didn't give much info on the 1st resort other then punching or knees but no real detail it's hard to make that determination really. Unless there is a video someplace where he goes into more detail that you saw. I didn't I took it as a broad generalization of strikes as his main go to.

Well, it's his style that he invented, so by definition anything he shows is "perfectly acceptable for his style." He could decree that the proper way to defeat a puncher is to repeatedly bash your own nose into the other guys fist and that would become the official "correct" Toshindo method. That wouldn't make it any good. For the record, Steve's primary background is in the Bujinkan, but the ground methods he is showing are not derived from the Bujinkan arts. It's his own stuff that he made up himself.

Who are you or I to tell someone else what they can and can't teach and what's good or not. If I don't like what's being shown I'll move on to soemplace else but I'm not going to get on the internet and talk trash about him or his style (not saying that's what your doing). Fact is most people will train their entire life and never need their martial.arts no matter what style it is so if people are happy training and find value in it then great.

BJJ is my primary focus these days,but from my perspective grappling is grappling. Different arts focus on different aspects of the whole based on the context they are training for, but to me they are just different facets of the same enormous beautiful gem. I have trained with practitioners of Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Tai Chi, Danzan Ryu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Kali, JKD, Muay Thai, Aikido, Jukado, Toshindo, Systema, MMA, Karate, and more, and learned from all of them. (I've also spent time studying video of other grappling arts that I haven't had the chance to study in person.) If something works, it works. I have no problem giving credit to other styles even when they are focusing on a different aspect of grappling than I am. I am saying that, based on my experience grappling hundreds of people with a huge variety of body types, experience and styles, the stuff Steve is showing in this video is barely one step above "pummel the other guys fist with your nose."

Yes grappling is grappling and again you may not like the technique but that doesn't mean it won't work. I once went to a call where a woman beat an armed robber with a canned ham. Is it the best technique nope but it worked. Would his technique be the best? Nope but it's also not the main focus of his style either so comparing his grappling to BJJ of course his will look less refined and less polished and even rudimentary but that doesn't mean it won't ever work.

I think this is a shame. As I've said, Steve Hayes is a talented guy with excellent teaching skills. If he took the time to understand the basics of ground grappling, he would do a great job of teaching it.

All the more reason to think there may be more to it then we saw in a 3 min clip. If he's that good of a teacher after all

 

[Hanzou]

Yep that's how demos work. It's hard to explain and perform a technique to a class of your partner is resisting. However since all we have is a 3 min short clip and we were not in the class to see what else happened

Seriously?

I hate to break it to you, but that technique doesn't work either. Also, Hayes is in prime position to get his shoulder snapped. If you would like to know how, just ask.

Lol ummmm someone that doesn't train in grappling. I didn't think it was that tough to figure out

Someone who doesn't train in grappling isn't going to put you in a guard strong enough to require a sophisticated grappling move to get out of.

You do understand BJJ is not the only way right? I mean I know anyone can spend 25 bucks a month to watch your schools internet BJJ classes and be a skillef BJJ persin but there are other ways to grapple. You enjoy BJJ that great but it's not the only way.

What? :uhoh:

Well that's great your instructor is smart enough to watch a 3 min YouTube clip then talk crap behind someone's back that's not present to defend himself on a technique your instructor knows nothing about. Sounds like a swell guy

My instructor knows the guard. He knows what can counter the guard and what can't counter the guard. Sorry, but that technique can't counter the guard.

 

[Steve]

I dont think anyone said it was good, or the prefered method. Even he said it was more of a last resort after other things have failed. Im just saying its not a "Fact" that its crap. Its not a"fact" it would never be effective and could "Never" work.

Reading his bio he seems to believe he is. So "should" he be? I have no Idea it may not be grappling in the style you know but it may be perfectly acceptable for his style

your taking abig leap thinking people in his audience dont know whats good or not. We are basing our judgement off of a small you tube clip not the entire class. Perhaps his form or posture or hand placement is off because hes busy talking while teaching, or maybe he was just having an off day, or maybe he just doesn't care and wants $. I dont know enough about him or the class

Reading some of the info on Hayes since I dont know much about him but it looks like he believes hes an expert in his style and in the grappling thats within his style. His style is different then yours. Grappling is a huge broad thing. BJJ grappling is different then Judo grappling which is different then Goju grappling which is different then Hapkido, wrestling, ect so whos to say he doesnt know what hes talking about? I never once heard him say he was teaching anything other then his ownstyle

All of this is fine. But the technique is flawed and many people have pointed out why. You seem to agree. So why the gyrations to rationalize it? I don't know the guy and am not commenting on more than what I've seen. There seems to two conversations going on. One about the grappling, which we all seem to agree is poor. And another about how we shouldn't point out how poor the grappling is because it's a little mean.


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[ballen0351]

Seriously?

I hate to break it to you, but that technique doesn't work either. Also, Hayes is in prime position to get his shoulder snapped. If you would like to know how, just ask.

Again that's your OPINION...........

Someone who doesn't train in grappling isn't going to put you in a guard strong enough to require a sophisticated grappling move to get out of.

How do you know? You seem to know everything about fighting. You make alot of assumptions.

What? :uhoh:

Yeah that was a jumbled mess. Posting from my phone sometimes letters run together. I'm trying to say BJJ isn't the only way. Then was commentng on your schools internet based training. For just 25 bucks a month I guess I can be an expert like you.

My instructor knows the guard. He knows what can counter the guard and what can't counter the guard. Sorry, but that technique can't counter the guard.

And he would be wrong since it clearly can counter the guard. It's right there on youtube

 

[Steve]

It is also my opinion. Yes. And others as well.


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[ballen0351]

All of this is fine. But the technique is flawed and many people have pointed out why. You seem to agree. So why the gyrations to rationalize it? I don't know the guy and am not commenting on more than what I've seen. There seems to two conversations going on. One about the grappling, which we all seem to agree is poor. And another about how we shouldn't point out how poor the grappling is because it's a little mean.


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Nothing to do with being "mean" Everything to do with its none of our business what other styles teach. If we don't like it fine don't do it. Most people that walk into a gym to train will never need it so why do you care what someone else is teaching and what makes you an expert to say what will and won't work from a 3 min clip? (That's a generic you not you personally) if you want to discuss the problems with a technique that's fine from a technical standpoint. But to then say yeah we had a good laugh at this styles founder over this or its ok to bash something if we don't agree well I disagree. It's not OK. I don't train in that style and don't know Hayes but I also think it's pretty childish to bad mouth the guy on the forums when you only see 3 min of a YouTube clip. If someone was actually at the class or seminar and has first hand knowledge that's one thing but to base it off a short YouTube clip well that's another.

I'm also not rationalizing the technique. I just disagree that it's a "fact" it couldn't never work. There is no "never" and "always" in self-defense. I also think some of you are taking this too seriously. This is a hobby for most people so who cares what Hayes teaches. If his guys like it so be it.

 

[ballen0351]

It is also my opinion. Yes. And others as well.


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That's correct but it's far from a fact

 

[Hanzou]

Again that's your OPINION...........

Get a partner and try that move sometime.

How do you know? You seem to know everything about fighting. You make alot of assumptions.

So you actually believe that an untrained person can magically perform an effective guard that a person can't punch their way out of? Please tell me you're joking.

Yeah that was a jumbled mess. Posting from my phone sometimes letters run together. I'm trying to say BJJ isn't the only way. Then was commentng on your schools internet based training. For just 25 bucks a month I guess I can be an expert like you.

I was saying "what" because that response had nothing to do with what I said.

Also only one branch of Bjj does online belts. Most of us aren't affiliated with that branch. Also you can only get to Blue belt. Blue belts in Bjj are hardly "experts".

And he would be wrong since it clearly can counter the guard. It's right there on youtube

Now you're just trolling. Congratulations.