Anti-grappling.

[Hanzou]

I would also like to note that I am also not bashing Hayes or Toshindo, simply the technique shown here. I am actually a fan of Hayes, and used to read his books when I was younger.

However, I think its important to remember that it is an instructor's responsibility to teach sound and reliable techniques to their students. Concocted half-baked techniques and not researching them properly is pretty irresponsible, and should be criticized accordingly. Not pressure-testing them against resisting partners is also irresponsible and ridiculous, because I seriously doubt that Hayes would have a hard time finding a Bjj person who wouldn't love to train with him.

There's nothing wrong with innovation, and applying your own spin on stuff, but make sure your technique is sound before you publish a video about it and make yourself (and your art) look silly.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

What Tony said.......

The big issue with Steve Hayes demo is that he doesn't control the hips and break open the guard before he moves into it. In a nut shell that is the major flaw with the technique. Break open the guard and you can attempt this but....... I do not like it that much as there are other ways to get an easier lock like a heel hook while staying upright and facing my oppoonent, etc.

 

[Danny T]

Well this is where there is some disagreement as to how the technique was shown by Hayes and shown by the ninjas. Hayes moved off line and turned to his left rolling back and on to his side. I agree he should move off line more and stayed postured up. On the turn his foot should be in on the opponent's chest to prevent the sit up. There are several fine tuning aspects but the gross motion is the same. Should he be instructing this to a bunch of students as being an authority? No. I have taught many things, still do, that I didn't completely understand but continued to work on it, refined it, and made it better and useable. So has everyone else who is an instructor, even some very high level authorities. When I do I preface it with this is something I learned and am still working on to understand it.

Was at a Pedro Sauer seminar earlier this year where Professor Sauer was attempting to show a pass that he had been exposed to by one of his higher level Black Belts (was used successfully is several competitions he was in). After showing the pass a couple of times his student broke in saying something alone lines of; 'you need to push forward on his ankle first, move off center..., then complete the pass.'

My stating this is to show even high level instructors make mistakes during instructions and when rolling. Instead of just finding fault and belittling give information that would make the technique proper. Why is the criticization always vs instructors/instructions of other styles/systems but never vs those of the same systems the critic is from when it happens as well. We should be building up the martial arts and those who keep it alive rather than degrading. GJJ/BJJ is great and has some bad instructors as well.

As students we should question everything and work to prove it, for ourselves. But to constantly find fault, criticize, and belittle helps no one.

 

[Hanzou]

Why is the criticization always vs instructors/instructions of other styles/systems but never vs those of the same systems the critic is from when it happens as well. We should be building up the martial arts and those who keep it alive rather than degrading. GJJ/BJJ is great and has some bad instructors as well.

As students we should question everything and work to prove it, for ourselves. But to constantly find fault, criticize, and belittle helps no one.

Why shouldn't we criticize, find fault, and belittle that which deserves those things? If you're going to attack the guard position by essentially saying that its a joke and its relatively easy to escape from/counter (when you know little about it), you're going to get called out for your mistake. Plain and simple.

The REAL tragedy in all of this is that Hayes could have produced a pretty cool technique if he had actually brought in a grappler to train this technique with. Imagine what Hayes could do if he brought in a Bjj black belt to help him develop Toshindo ground techniques?

Both Toshindo and Bjj would benefit from that sharing of knowledge.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why shouldn't we criticize, find fault, and belittle that which deserves those things?

There's a difference between constructive criticism of a technique or method and rubbishing them. One is helpful, the other is not.

 

[Hanzou]

There's a difference between constructive criticism of a technique or method and rubbishing them. One is helpful, the other is not.

Except the video is coming from a position of authority, so constructive criticism is pointless. Toshindo isn't going to change that technique because of criticism, they think it works fine against someone putting you in the guard. Constructive criticism is what happens when you're putting together that technique, and refining it into a sound product. We're way passed that point now, so all we can do now is point out how wrong it is.-

 

[drop bear]

There's a difference between constructive criticism of a technique or method and rubbishing them. One is helpful, the other is not.

The moral outrage that he is charging people for that and potentially sending people out in to the world that would try that?

Therefore rubbishing them with a clear reasoning might be the better choice in the long run. We can't train in an echo chamber it will stunt our growth.

I will quite often try stuff and often it is pretty stupid. The people who care whether my martial arts is good will be sure to tell me. It is not the worst thing to try and fail. But seriously you should know if you are failing.

 

[Danny T]

Except the video is coming from a position of authority, so constructive criticism is pointless. Toshindo isn't going to change that technique because of criticism, they think it works fine against someone putting you in the guard. Constructive criticism is what happens when you're putting together that technique, and refining it into a sound product. We're way passed that point now, so all we can do now is point out how wrong it is.-

By this definition then when in the instance I wrote about Professor Sauer, the person of authority in his association, presented the technique his student should have criticized and belittled it rather than helped him refine it. Professor Sauer probably should have waited to present the technique until he had it down but didn't. Rather than belittle the technique or Professor Sauer the person who had a greater understanding of the it gave information to correct it or to make it better and usable by all. That is what you Sir don't do. You just criticize and present no information to allow for a greater understanding of what is wrong, why it is wrong and what would make it proper technique.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

By this definition then when in the instance I wrote about Professor Sauer, the person of authority in his association, presented the technique his student should have criticized and belittled it rather than helped him refine it. Professor Sauer probably should have waited to present the technique until he had it down but didn't. Rather than belittle the technique or Professor Sauer the person who had a greater understanding of the it gave information to correct it or to make it better and usable by all. That is what you Sir don't do. You just criticize and present no information to allow for a greater understanding of what is wrong, why it is wrong and what would make it proper technique.

I can see a few differences in the situations here.

1) Professor Sauer is skilled and knowledgeable enough that I'm sure his original version of the technique had some useful validity to it, even if it was improved by the refinements his student offered. Steve Hayes is skilled and knowledgeable in some areas, but everything he showed in that clip would get you in big trouble against even a blue belt in BJJ (or any other half-way experienced ground grappler).

2) Professor Sauer offered the technique knowing his student was there to correct any details he was missing and he was open to publically accepting that correction. Steve Hayes offered his technique without anyone to correct him on it. I've always gotten along fine with Steve, but I really doubt that if I were to write and tell him everything that needed fixing with his demonstration he would cheerfully pass on the correction to his students.

3) I wouldn't even worry about the demonstration if it was just one technique that I didn't agree with. Sometimes a skilled practitioner can make something work that I can't and make me reconsider my opinion on the move. The problem is that the whole of the demonstration makes it clear that he doesn't understand even the most fundamental aspects of the topic he's covering. That's just unnecessary. Steve is both smart and talented. If spent the time to actually learn the basics of groundfighting instead of assuming an expertise he doesn't have, he would probably pick them up much faster than most students do and he would certainly do an excellent job of being able to teach them.

 

[drop bear]

By this definition then when in the instance I wrote about Professor Sauer, the person of authority in his association, presented the technique his student should have criticized and belittled it rather than helped him refine it. Professor Sauer probably should have waited to present the technique until he had it down but didn't. Rather than belittle the technique or Professor Sauer the person who had a greater understanding of the it gave information to correct it or to make it better and usable by all. That is what you Sir don't do. You just criticize and present no information to allow for a greater understanding of what is wrong, why it is wrong and what would make it proper technique.

Pulling up a senior instructor at all could be seen as criticizing and belittling. This whole thread is designed towards a greater understanding of what is wrong. More specifically people who can't grapple teaching people to anti grapple.

 

[K-man]

Why shouldn't we criticize, find fault, and belittle that which deserves those things? If you're going to attack the guard position by essentially saying that its a joke and its relatively easy to escape from/counter (when you know little about it), you're going to get called out for your mistake. Plain and simple.

The REAL tragedy in all of this is that Hayes could have produced a pretty cool technique if he had actually brought in a grappler to train this technique with. Imagine what Hayes could do if he brought in a Bjj black belt to help him develop Toshindo ground techniques?

Both Toshindo and Bjj would benefit from that sharing of knowledge.

Criticise by all means. Constructive criticism will help all of us. Belittling has no place on MT or anywhere else for that matter. Good forums don't allow it because it is divisive and destructive.

The irony is that although you might know something about grappling, and it is up to others who grapple to decide how much you know, you know very little about other styles yet you make the same comments about them and continue with the same comments even when people with first hand knowledge seek to inform you of your misunderstanding.

We are here to expand and share our knowledge, not to read belittling comments. If I wanted to do that I would join Bullshido.

 

[drop bear]

Criticise by all means. Constructive criticism will help all of us. Belittling has no place on MT or anywhere else for that matter. Good forums don't allow it because it is divisive and destructive.

The irony is that although you might know something about grappling, and it is up to others who grapple to decide how much you know, you know very little about other styles yet you make the same comments about them and continue with the same comments even when people with first hand knowledge seek to inform you of your misunderstanding.

We are here to expand and share our knowledge, not to read belittling comments. If I wanted to do that I would join Bullshido.

Yet we all post belittling comments.

 

[Hanzou]

Criticise by all means. Constructive criticism will help all of us. Belittling has no place on MT or anywhere else for that matter. Good forums don't allow it because it is divisive and destructive.

How exactly is pointing out that the technique is fundamentally flawed, and that Hayes doesn't understand the guard position "belittling"?

Those would be called the facts.

 

[ballen0351]

How exactly is pointing out that the technique is fundamentally flawed, and that Hayes doesn't understand the guard position "belittling"?

Those would be called the facts.

No thats an opinion. Im sure Hayes disagrees with your assessment.

 

[Hanzou]

No thats an opinion. Im sure Hayes disagrees with your assessment.

It's not an opinion. Anyone with any knowledge of the guard, or grappling in general have already pointed out the factual issues with that technique.

It's laughable that you think otherwise.

 

[K-man]

How exactly is pointing out that the technique is fundamentally flawed, and that Hayes doesn't understand the guard position "belittling"?

Those would be called the facts.

I don't feel the need to go over your thousand or so posts to give examples. Pointing out that someone doesn't understand a technique is fine, showing how that technique could be improved or made to work would be commendable, but adding comments like 'ludicrous', 'laughable', 'joke', 'half baked', 'stupid' etc reduce the value of your comment considerably and are offensive to many.

 

[ballen0351]

It's not an opinion. Anyone with any knowledge of the guard, or grappling in general have already pointed out the factual issues with that technique.

It's laughable that you think otherwise.

Its laughable that you believe any technique being good or bad is anything other then an opinion. Did it work? Yep video shows it clearly worked. Would it work in real life who knows it could. Would the technique you do in your OPINION work in real life? It may it may not. If its not 100% then its not a "Fact" If I break a pencil its a fact the pencil is broken. Its not a fact that the way I broke it was the best way

 

[K-man]

It's not an opinion. Anyone with any knowledge of the guard, or grappling in general have already pointed out the factual issues with that technique.

It's laughable that you think otherwise.

As I said, offensive!

 

[K-man]

Its laughable that you believe any technique being good or bad is anything other then an opinion. Did it work? Yep video shows it clearly worked. Would it work in real life who knows it could. Would the technique in your OPINION work in real life? It may it may not. If its not 100% then its not a "Fact" If I break a pencil its a fact the pencil is broken. Its not a fact that the way I broke it was the best way

Ah yes, you might have broken the pencil but it's anecdotal. Please post a video.

 

[ballen0351]

Ah yes, you might have broken the pencil but it's anecdotal. Please post a video.

Thats right I forgot on this forum many believe if its not on youtube it never happened