Anti-grappling.

[RTKDCMB]

You are teaching ninjers not grapplers.

Is a Ninjer, .someone who Ninge's?

 

[drop bear]

So how would you know if the technique worked or not?



Developing a skillful guard without training that is capable of neutralizing a trained opponent isn't possible.



Draculino doesn't give out online belts;





Factually pointing out flawed techniques designed to (supposedly) dismantle one of the foundations of my art is considered trolling now?

Constructive criticism doesn't have to only be constructive to the person showing the technique. If you have legitimate corrections and improvements (and I am sure you do) and you want people to take you seriously then rubbishing and belittling them is not the way to do it.

You think you get a better result by being easily offended and lecturing people? Especially in defence of somone who is teaching bad stuff.

Like anything the issue is nuanced rather than black and white. There is a level you can go before it just becomes a pile on for no good reason.

 

[drop bear]

Is a Ninjer, .someone who Ninge's?

Yep they ninge when they should be wraslin.

 

[Hanzou]

Constructive criticism doesn't have to only be constructive to the person showing the technique. If you have legitimate corrections and improvements (and I am sure you do) and you want people to take you seriously then rubbishing and belittling them is not the way to do it.

Sorry, but stuff like this;

Is beyond constructive criticism. Its simply bad. You don't see it because you're not knowledgeable about the guard position, but Hayes is displaying a fundamental lack of knowledge here about the position he's attempting to counter.

Even experienced martial artists like yourself and Kman couldn't recognize the problems in that video. Do you think his students can? They Ooo'd and Aah'd about it. They have absolutely no clue about the ridiculousness that they've just been taught. So now you have these ninja thinking that they can stop a grappler, and they're going to get demolished. I have a big problem with that, because its simply irresponsible.

 

[punisher73]

Sorry, but stuff like this;

Is beyond constructive criticism. Its simply bad. You don't see it because you're not knowledgeable about the guard position, but Hayes is displaying a fundamental lack of knowledge here about the position he's attempting to counter.

Even experienced martial artists like yourself and Kman couldn't recognize the problems in that video. Do you think his students can? They Ooo'd and Aah'd about it. They have absolutely no clue about the ridiculousness that they've just been taught. So now you have these ninja thinking that they can stop a grappler, and they're going to get demolished. I have a big problem with that, because its simply irresponsible.

I haven't read through the whole 37 pages of this, but this is correct.

Hayes has not established any posture whatsoever to start to counter his opponent's guard. There is a reason why grapplers train lots in the guard position. Hayes is leaving himself open to many sweeps and other counters, not including the guy in the guard attempting a triangle/armbar because of his poor posture and leaning in.

I remember looking at a book at the bookstore about pressure point fighting vs. a grappler. One of the techniques they showed was when you are mounted, hit the attacker with a heel palm to the chest and then slide a spearhand into the notch at the base of the throat. Sounds good in theory, unless you understand a basic armbar from the mount. You have just handed your attacker an easy gift to give you a broken arm.

With that being said. If Hayes (or anyone else) is giving techniques for an untrained person who just happens to land in that position and has no clue what they are doing and they admit as much, then the techniques might work. I have sparred with people before and it has gone to the ground and you end up in that position, but it wasn't a planned strategic defense on their part and it was easily passed, so it does happen. I just don't like techniques created and shown against an attack/strategy when the person showing doesn't have a full knowledge of it either.

Even if you love your art and what you do. Spend 6 months to a year learning a ground system so you do understand at least HOW the tactics and techniques are applied.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sorry, but stuff like this;

Is beyond constructive criticism. Its simply bad. You don't see it because you're not knowledgeable about the guard position, but Hayes is displaying a fundamental lack of knowledge here about the position he's attempting to counter.

Even experienced martial artists like yourself and Kman couldn't recognize the problems in that video. Do you think his students can? They Ooo'd and Aah'd about it. They have absolutely no clue about the ridiculousness that they've just been taught. So now you have these ninja thinking that they can stop a grappler, and they're going to get demolished. I have a big problem with that, because its simply irresponsible.

You know that I haven't said one word about the technique shown in the video right?

 

[ballen0351]

So how would you know if the technique worked or not?

Because I've been around long enough to know anything is possible. Will it work every time no. But clearly in the video it worked so.....

Developing a skillful guard without training that is capable of neutralizing a trained opponent isn't possible.

I disagree and have spoken to an attempted rape victim that had zero self defense training that used a very effective guard to keep a rapist from completing the rape and she was able to claw that crap out of his face at the same time to make friends easy identification.

Draculino doesn't give out online belts;

Right that's extra I read.

Factually pointing out flawed techniques designed to (supposedly) dismantle one of the foundations of my art is considered trolling now?

No calling them names and talking about the great laugh you had at the expense of another's style then to bring up other martial artists like Dillman to further make jokes is trolling. You were asked several times for a technical discussion on the technique buy you just started making Ninja jokes

 

[ballen0351]

Because he thread is about anti grappling and the video was posted for discussion. Seems like a very reasonable reason. Why do you care so much about what I care about?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

No I mean why do you care what he teaches? You want to discuss the technique that's great that's why we are here but why do you care what he teaches in his style to his students?

 

[ballen0351]

It is not that big a leap. If the teacher does not have the basic tools to teach. Why would the student?

Teach what? Tokindo well since its his invention he can teach whatever he wants. If he were teaching it and calling it BJJ then yeah you would have a point because at best its poor BJJ but thats not what hes doing

You are trying to suggest that stylistic difference is the same as works/doesn't work. I believe that is a misconception. I mean if you were to go learn a grappling style and had to choose wrestling,judo,bjj. There is an argument that you should choose for a stylistic reason. But they all have been made to work.

No Im saying you cant say one way or another if this technique would work in real life. Has anyone tried it in real life? If someone tried it 20 times in real life would it fail 20 times? You cant answer that. You can guess but thats it.

Very few bjjers will turn around and discount a top wrestlers advice because it is not their thing.

Hes not a BJJer

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I could put up dozens of videos that I believe show that people think they know what they don't. That is when we should be able to have our colleagues here explain how it could be done better, not just say it is a joke.

Okay, since a few people have said something along these lines ...

Let's take a look at the video you posted which you perceived as showing "fundamentally the same" technique and I perceived as fundamentally different. Dave in this video is doing a number of things which make his technique work much better:

1) He starts out with good base, posture, and hand position that will make him difficult to sweep or submit.
2) He controls the hips of the person on bottom. (very important)
3) He uses that hip control to break open the guard before he tries to apply the leg lock. (also important) The standing up to do so is just one option. What counts is that he gets the legs open. He is able to break the guard as easily as he does primarily because of his size, but he's backing up that size with technique. At this point the correct response for the player on the bottom is to retract his legs and place his feet on his opponent's hips. By leaving his legs where they are he makes them targets. The rest of the technique is taking advantage of this mistake by the bottom person.
4) He continues to control the hips of the bottom person as he puts one knee down and tilts his opponent to one side. This is a nice detail which should enhance his chances of completing the stepover.
5) When he steps over, he doesn't fall to his back and invite his opponent to mount him. He uses his back arm to post and stay upright. This is a crucial difference between this version and Hayes's version.
6) At the end, he faces towards his opponent instead of away. This is the innovation he was talking about, and it looks like a good one that should increase his control and pressure on the leg-lock.

Overall, it was a solid demonstration and I would be very respectful when stepping on the mat with this gentleman.

Note - if you and your training partner are not familiar and comfortable with leg locks you should be very careful with this one or skip it entirely. There is some potential for accidental knee injury if you don't know what you are doing.

This technique originates in catch wrestling. It's not super high-percentage against a skilled guard player because a experienced person will know to retract their legs as soon as the guard is broken. It is a legitimate move to take advantage of an opponent's mistake.

Your second example is not nearly as well done as the first. The instructor doesn't control the hips or break the guard before turning over. He's basically relying on superior strength and an unskilled opponent who doesn't react to counter him in any way. What he does do correctly is to post an arm to stay upright rather than falling to his back as Hayes does.

I hope this breakdown helps.

 

[ballen0351]

I haven't read through the whole 37 pages of this, but this is correct.

Hayes has not established any posture whatsoever to start to counter his opponent's guard. There is a reason why grapplers train lots in the guard position. Hayes is leaving himself open to many sweeps and other counters, not including the guy in the guard attempting a triangle/armbar because of his poor posture and leaning in.

I remember looking at a book at the bookstore about pressure point fighting vs. a grappler. One of the techniques they showed was when you are mounted, hit the attacker with a heel palm to the chest and then slide a spearhand into the notch at the base of the throat. Sounds good in theory, unless you understand a basic armbar from the mount. You have just handed your attacker an easy gift to give you a broken arm.

With that being said. If Hayes (or anyone else) is giving techniques for an untrained person who just happens to land in that position and has no clue what they are doing and they admit as much, then the techniques might work. I have sparred with people before and it has gone to the ground and you end up in that position, but it wasn't a planned strategic defense on their part and it was easily passed, so it does happen. I just don't like techniques created and shown against an attack/strategy when the person showing doesn't have a full knowledge of it either.

Even if you love your art and what you do. Spend 6 months to a year learning a ground system so you do understand at least HOW the tactics and techniques are applied.

Where you in the class? Perhaps his posture is off because hes trying to talk to the camera. Perhaps his hand placements are off because hes raising his body to look at the other students to make eye contact like a good instructor. Im not saying your wrong just that you make alot of assumption off a short clip

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, but stuff like this;

Is beyond constructive criticism. Its simply bad. You don't see it because you're not knowledgeable about the guard position, but Hayes is displaying a fundamental lack of knowledge here about the position he's attempting to counter.

Even experienced martial artists like yourself and Kman couldn't recognize the problems in that video. Do you think his students can? They Ooo'd and Aah'd about it. They have absolutely no clue about the ridiculousness that they've just been taught. So now you have these ninja thinking that they can stop a grappler, and they're going to get demolished. I have a big problem with that, because its simply irresponsible.

And before k man finds it yes there is a real guard break that looks like that.

But it definatley ain't that.

 

[drop bear]

Where you in the class? Perhaps his posture is off because hes trying to talk to the camera. Perhaps his hand placements are off because hes raising his body to look at the other students to make eye contact like a good instructor. Im not saying your wrong just that you make alot of assumption off a short clip

Occam's razor. It is more likely he is crap than he was put off multiple times by the humidity of the mats or something.

 

[drop bear]

Teach what? Tokindo well since its his invention he can teach whatever he wants. If he were teaching it and calling it BJJ then yeah you would have a point because at best its poor BJJ but thats not what hes doing

No Im saying you cant say one way or another if this technique would work in real life. Has anyone tried it in real life? If someone tried it 20 times in real life would it fail 20 times? You cant answer that. You can guess but thats it.

Hes not a BJJer

OK then tokino has sub standard grappling I have no issue with that if he wants to teach sub standard grappling he should go right ahead. And if hanzou wants to teach people what substandard grappling he can as well and hanzou can call that anti grappling.


A theoretical debate? Will it work? I guess we will just never know.

Wait.

No.

I can try it. I can even try it 20 times. So I guess we will know. I am not even sure where you were going with that argument.

 

[ballen0351]

No we still won't know of it works if you try it 20 times. Just because you can't get it to work doesn't mean somebody else can't get it to work

 

[drop bear]

No we still won't know of it works if you try it 20 times. Just because you can't get it to work doesn't mean somebody else can't get it to work

Then the onus would be on them to get it to work. Not on me.

 

[ballen0351]

Then the onus would be on them to get it to work. Not on me.

No the onus is on you to go to him and actually learn the technique not just watch a 3 min YouTube clip and assume you know it now

 

[drop bear]

No the onus is on you to go to him and actually learn the technique not just watch a 3 min YouTube clip and assume you know it now

Pretty sure that is what he did. I learn grappling from guys who can grapple.

 

[ballen0351]

Pretty sure that is what he did.

Who did?

 

[drop bear]

Who did?

Serphen haynes. More likely than the sun was in his eyes or that I am just not learning grappling correctly.