Anti-grappling.

[Hong Kong Pooey]

A group of Kung Fu practitioners discuss how to stop the takedown, with mixed results;

Thanks, quite good that I thought.

When you say mixed results, I presume you mean some good and some bad ideas/demos. Which were the poorer aspects from your POV?

Obviously pulling the knife was the best one, but not too realistic for a lot of us law abiding citizens!

 

[jezr74]

I have to say it helps reading up on the grappling terms, in particular Hooks - getting control of the legs, Sweep - reversing your position.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A group of Kung Fu practitioners discuss how to stop the takedown, with mixed results;

There is a such think as "too late to do anything". The "fire-men's carry" is another example.

There are 3 stages to deal with a throw:

1. prevent it from happening - you don't have to be a good grappler.
2. deal with it when it happens - you have to be an average grappler.
3. take advantage when it happens - you have to be a good grappler.

For example, when your opponent shoots at your double legs, you can

- spin left leg back,
- use right over hook to hook under his left shoulder,
- use right leg to lift/spring his left leg, and
- throw him down toward your left.

In order to do so, you have to be very good in your own grappling skill.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps we should add a little bit of honesty.

really? That's the play? You're honest and I'm not?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[K-man]

really? That's the play? You're honest and I'm not?

Let's just say your post was laced with hyperbole and poetic licence.

 

[drop bear]

Wrestling over hook. To stand up. For a single leg defence.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hXffSBIyj-Q

 

[Hanzou]

Thanks, quite good that I thought.

When you say mixed results, I presume you mean some good and some bad ideas/demos. Which were the poorer aspects from your POV?

Obviously pulling the knife was the best one, but not too realistic for a lot of us law abiding citizens!

The main bad ideas is the over-reliance on attempting to stop a takedown with forearms, elbows, or hand techniques in general. Can they work? Sure they can, but usually it requires you to be significantly stronger than the person attempting the takedown, and it requires pretty good timing in general. This degrades those concepts into the low percentage category. I think there was one part early in the video where Izzo was demonstrating a takedown in slow-motion, and his partner was able to place his forearm underneath his head and push upwards, thus supposedly causing Izzo's entire upper body to arch upwards?

Absolute nonsense.

The demonstrations were also pretty unrealistic. For example, they don't take into account chain grappling. Chain Grappling is when someone switches the takedown/throw on you and immediately goes to an alternate takedown/throw. You may think that only expert grapplers can do this, but I've seen situations where someone is going for a tackle, the person blocks them or stops them, and then the person immediately wraps them up and body slams them. It's not as uncommon as people think.

They also still have this bizarre concept that someone is going to take you down with some sloppy DLT variation every single time. I still argue that the clinch takedown is the most common takedown in fighting, and I have yet to see any of these anti-grappling videos tackle it. Bjj alone has several clinch-based takedowns because they're so easy and practical to do on someone.

This is why Brian's earlier post is right on the money. If you're going to do this stuff, get an expert grappler on there to show you how a grappler would do things. Hell, even get grapplers from each style to show you how they do things. There's no reason why Izzo couldn't get a Judoka, a Wrestler, a Sambo guy, a Jiujiteiro, and/or other grapplers together to do this with him. If you're not a grappler, you can't imitate how a grappler thinks or moves no matter how hard you try, so you end up just wasting your time.

 

[drop bear]

Double under hooks defence.

Forearm in throat.
Wizzer.
Re guard.

 

[Hanzou]

Toshindo guard pass;

Yet another example of attempting to counter something you don't understand.

I think the part that got me the most was where the students OO'd and Ahh'd at that technique. I wonder what happens when they realize it doesn't work. :lol:

 

[K-man]

Toshindo guard pass;

Yet another example of attempting to counter something you don't understand.

I think the part that got me the most was where the students OO'd and Ahh'd at that technique. I wonder what happens when they realize it doesn't work. :lol:

OK, you don't like it. Instead of rubbishing it perhaps you could explain the pitfalls of such a technique.

 

[Danny T]

Toshindo guard pass;
Yet another example of attempting to counter something you don't understand.

I think the part that got me the most was where the students OO'd and Ahh'd at that technique. I wonder what happens when they realize it doesn't work. :lol:

I find this interesting.
Just two weeks ago I was at a seminar with Rodrigo Menderios (BJJ Revolution), Carlson Gracie Team and we were working this guard pass to an ankle lock. We also worked a couple of counters to it also.

Now Hayes' hand position on the ground and posture is questionable and I disagree with the set up but non the less we worked this pass at a highly respectable BJJ instructors seminar.

 

[Hanzou]

OK, you don't like it. Instead of rubbishing it perhaps you could explain the pitfalls of such a technique.

Howabout I let some Ninjas explain it for me?

 

[Hanzou]

I find this interesting.
Just two weeks ago I was at a seminar with Rodrigo Menderios (BJJ Revolution), Carlson Gracie Team and we were working this guard pass to an ankle lock. We also worked a couple of counters to it also.

Now Hayes' hand position on the ground and posture is questionable and I disagree with the set up but non the less we worked this pass at a highly respectable BJJ instructors seminar.

If the set up is different, it's not the same guard pass.

 

[Danny T]

If the set up is different, it's not the same guard pass.

Then why did you use the 'ninjas' to explain your disagreement. Their set up position was not the same as Hayes.

 

[Hanzou]

Then why did you use the 'ninjas' to explain your disagreement. Their set up position was not the same as Hayes.

The "ninjas" show everything that is wrong with the demonstration, beginning with Hayes' posture, which is just ripe for sweeps, chokes, and locks. Beyond that, Hayes' passing technique places you in a worse position than its supposedly getting you out of. Leaning back in a closed guard is going to cause your opponent to rise up with you by default. If the proper grips are in place, it will cause the person performing the guard to rise up with you rapidly, giving them the perfect momentum to take a top position.

Hilariously, you see Hayes' students do exactly that while they're attempting the technique, only to purposely place themselves back on the mat in order for their partner to perform the roll. You're practically giving me the mounted position, and maybe even your back if you're dumb enough to keep rolling. A no-stripe white belt would eat that up like candy.

The icing on the cake though, is the guy on the bottom comically grimacing from a knee to his butt from Hayes. He writhes and squirms in agony as if that move would actually put you in excruciating pain.

It's nonsense.

 

[K-man]

The "ninjas" show everything that is wrong with the demonstration, beginning with Hayes' posture, which is just ripe for sweeps, chokes, and locks. Beyond that, Hayes' passing technique places you in a worse position than its supposedly getting you out of. Leaning back in a closed guard is going to cause your opponent to rise up with you by default. If the proper grips are in place, it will cause the person performing the guard to rise up with you rapidly, giving them the perfect momentum to take a top position.

Hilariously, you see Hayes' students do exactly that while they're attempting the technique, only to purposely place themselves back on the mat in order for their partner to perform the roll. You're practically giving me the mounted position, and maybe even your back if you're dumb enough to keep rolling. A no-stripe white belt would eat that up like candy.

The icing on the cake though, is the guy on the bottom comically grimacing from a knee to his butt from Hayes. He writhes and squirms in agony as if that move would actually put you in excruciating pain.

It's nonsense.

And your reply is nonsense. You bag the technique you bag the guy, you don't seem to be unable to explain the bits that cause the problem. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than you could explain it in simple terms. It would appear that the technique is valid if it was performed correctly. How do you perform it in a way it would work?

 

[Hanzou]

And your reply is nonsense. You bag the technique you bag the guy, you don't seem to be unable to explain the bits that cause the problem. Perhaps someone with more knowledge than you could explain it in simple terms. It would appear that the technique is valid if it was performed correctly. How do you perform it in a way it would work?

The bits that cause the problem is the leaning back while in guard. Observe;



Notice how the guy in guard begins to go up with the person leaning backwards because of his legs and his grip? He purposely releases both, and returns to the mat.

If they had been rolling, the guard player could have easily scrambled for mounted position, and the person attempting the lock would have helped him along the way.

That's but one of several issues I have with the clip.

 

[drop bear]

OK, you don't like it. Instead of rubbishing it perhaps you could explain the pitfalls of such a technique.

You are sweeping him into mount. You roll on to your back. He rolls on to his knees. And you have just made your position worse.

Otherwise the minor technical issues of his hands being on the ground and his base being terrible.


And it is low percentage. There are leg locks that a sports player would know from guard because he has to have options. But not as a go to self defence move to teach ninjas.

And even from that lock. You can grab that ankle rolling him back over.

And you don't do leg locks like that. Pro tip. The toes go directly in the arm pit not behind. Then when you do an actual working leg lock they don't have the strength to pull out.

 

[drop bear]

I find this interesting.
Just two weeks ago I was at a seminar with Rodrigo Menderios (BJJ Revolution), Carlson Gracie Team and we were working this guard pass to an ankle lock. We also worked a couple of counters to it also.

Now Hayes' hand position on the ground and posture is questionable and I disagree with the set up but non the less we worked this pass at a highly respectable BJJ instructors seminar.

That ankle lock? Not the one where you roll straight back.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

OK, you don't like it. Instead of rubbishing it perhaps you could explain the pitfalls of such a technique.

I find this interesting.
Just two weeks ago I was at a seminar with Rodrigo Menderios (BJJ Revolution), Carlson Gracie Team and we were working this guard pass to an ankle lock. We also worked a couple of counters to it also.

Now Hayes' hand position on the ground and posture is questionable and I disagree with the set up but non the less we worked this pass at a highly respectable BJJ instructors seminar.

I'll preface this by saying I have no desire to bash Steve Hayes or Toshindo. I'm acquainted with Steve and consider him to be an above average martial artist and instructor. I give him credit for trying to incorporate groundfighting into Toshindo.

That said, he is clearly has not spent time doing any sort of resisted groundfighting with competent training partners and it shows. My best guess is that he's watched some videos, attended some seminars, and then invented stuff based on experiments with compliant students. It's easy to think you've developed amazing technique when you never test it against someone who is honestly trying to beat you.

To start with - Steve's posture, base, and hand position will get him swept or submitted in an instant by anyone with any experience.

The knee strike to the butt is completely misguided. It will inflict no damage and guarantee that you get swept.

The tactic of digging the elbow into the thigh can work against low-level grapplers if done with good base and posture (which he doesn't have). Punching from within the guard is a legitimate tactic, if done with good base and posture and understanding of the bottom person's likely tactics (which he doesn't have).

The suggestions that the bottom person will be trying to crush your ribs or push you away with his hands indicates that he doesn't understand how the guard is used.

There are legitimate techniques which superficially resemble this one - they stack or roll the bottom person into a position where his guard breaks open and you can move directly into a leg lock. I wouldn't say they are super high percentage, but they are valid techniques at the right moment. They depend on controlling the bottom person's hips in such a way that he can't adjust as you force his legs open. In this case, Steve had no control of the bottom person's hips. There is nothing preventing the bottom person from just riding up to mount when he lays back.

The whole thing relies on the bottom person doing pretty much the opposite of what he should do when someone is in his guard.