Anti-grappling.

[drop bear]

Actually it is not, it is an statement on something that is not wise to do in the street followed by a question about a book.

Their is an argument for what you say. I could go into a complicated post about winning scrambles and the turtle. But at the basic level we are discussing if you are falling on your back and you can. Pull guard.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Seriously if you are trying for those locks you are going to have to be knee riding him. It is the only way to make that space.

Now don't get me wrong im not talking about what that aikido guy is doing.

I've already been interested in playing with sankyo to set up arm bars or locks the video just has made me a bit more intrigued.

I was originally thinking of using sankyo to set up the mount arm bar like how some grapplers use the good neck wrist lock to set up the straight arm bar.

Just like how you can add wrist and finger locks to omloplatas, kimura, and figure four locks while applying submissions.

I guess its all about thinking outside of competitive grappling while being open minded and thinking about how one can mix arts to compliment each other.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

How would an attempted guard pass cause my entire body to become paralyzed, and unable to respond? There is no logical way they can do it "their" way.

See the issue is you have allot of people that don't understand even the basics of grappling trying turn their art in to anti grappling techniques.

This is what brings on major criticism on their videos because its quite easily done the majority of the time.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Sankyo done in grappling against a decent grappler now I know this isnt anti grappling but this is more of my approach on how TMA can add to MMA. You can even tell this guys opponent has grappled him before by the way he was trying to keep his hands away from him LOL.


Check out this video on YouTube:

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

allot of people that don't understand even the basics of grappling trying turn their art in to anti grappling techniques.

The problem is "not enough testing". If you develop a strategy, you will need to test it against as many people as you can find. Not to just to test it against people in your own style, but to test it against people from other styles. Unfortunately, only the sport environment can give you enough valid testing. If you just want to stay on the "self-defense" side of the fence, there can be some concern there.

If you have tested your "hip throw" in a striking environment, you may use "under hook" instead of "waist wrap" to eliminate your opponent's free left arm mobility.

 

[K-man]

Well, i can't see the video, so I can't know which of the following this is. If the technique is ridiculous, such as we've seen in some other videos, I can agree with Hanzou's general comment. Also, is this "sparring" or is it a demonstration on a compliant training dummy a series of techniques performed without resistance? Because if the latter, it has nothing to do with "sparring how you train."

So you made the comment before seeing the video yet you agree with Hanzou's comment sight unseen. And I assume that is also coming from your first hand knowledge of top Aikido. :hmm:

I can't see the video, so I might be presuming the worst. FWIW, if anyone wants to see some cool stuff, Roy Dean is a BJJ Black Belt and also a black belt in Aikikai Aikido, Kodokan Judo and Seibukan Jujutsu. In my opinion, if you want to learn how Aikido can be incorporated into ground fighting, THIS is the guy to ask... someone who knows both.

Thank you. I will check Roy Dean out.

This is just a personal insult. Attack the post, not the poster. Do you disagree and believe that the technique shown is viable? Why? What principles are being demonstrated in the video and how do you HONESTLY believe that they would fare against a competent grappler? This isn't necessarily true. Contrary to popular opinion, there is such a thing as bad art, bad poetry and bad technique. It is very possible that the technique being demonstrated is just fundamentally flawed and unsound. I contend that some of the techniques demonstrated in the WC Anti-Grappling videos was fundamentally flawed and should not be recommended to anyone as viable defense against a competent grappler.

My take on the video from an Aikido perspective bearing in mind we are not training to take on highly trained grapplers. Escaping the guard is fine. Applying ikkyo from that position would be extremely difficult but what is being demonstrated is the sequence of Aikido locks from Ikkyo through to gokyo. It is no different to heaps of training videos you will see of flow drills or others even in BJJ. So, could ikkyo be a viable option? Sure, but not in the situation where you reach across and apply it and shown in the video. The same could be said of nikkyo, sankyo and gokyo. When you take video out of context to disparage an art it is, to my mind, simply contemptuous. So yes, in the right environment each of the techniques is viable. Could an inexperienced Aikidoka apply them on the ground? Maybe not, depends on the individual. A competent Aikidoka against a competent grappler? Certainly, if that was the appropriate technique to apply, but not in the way demonstrated because I don't believe that was what the video was about.

Again you are talking blind but supporting Hanzou's comments. Are you suggesting what I said is wrong? Without understanding Bunkai, Hanzou called it fantasy, he posted video of what he believed to be Krav to belittle Krav, he has bagged anti-grappling which is specifically a WC term and now he takes a swipe at Aikido. I think I am attacking the posts. You are basing your WC comments on the poor techniques Hanzou has posted yet none of us has seen the actual material we are discussing.

Conversely, we can know from a preponderance of evidence that some technique is sound, even if I cannot execute that technique. For example, a BJJ white belt may not be able to consistently apply the armbar from guard, even when the opportunity presents itself. But we know that the technique works because we have ample evidence that it is so. Another personal attack. You completely undermine your credibility regarding the ToS when you knowingly violate it yourself.

And, I think you comments here, sight unseen have said volumes for your credibility.

 

[K-man]

Interesting how you claim I'm style bashing Aikido, when your post above is a bash against Bjj.

Hmm! Let's look at the post I was replying to ...

It just wasn't concentrated on because rolling around on the ground in a battlefield isn't the best strategy.

to which I said ...

Or the street for that matter.

So exactly what here is a bash against BJJ? Or do you think that rolling around on the ground in a battlefield is the best strategy?

I have no beef with BJJ. I think it is a great MA. If I was 40 years younger I would probably give it a go myself.

As to your question, no its actually pretty terrible.

So now you are also an expert on Chin Na Fa as well?

 

[K-man]

Okay. I'll ask again. Does anyone think that the guard pass technique as shown will work for anyone? Kman? Is that "good" aikido?

I'm not sure that a guard pass is taught at all in most Aikido. I suspect most Aikido schools teach very little ground work. Certainly I have never been shown an 'Aikido' escape from the closed guard. Having said that, do I think that the escape demonstrated is viable? Yes, I think it would work in the majority of situations an Aikidoka might find himself in. Would I go into side control and apply one or the restraints demonstrated? No, personally I would be just regaining my feet, but it is quite on the cards that an Aikidoka could apply locks and holds on the ground.

 

[RTKDCMB]

How would an attempted guard pass cause my entire body to become paralyzed, and unable to respond? There is no logical way they can do it "their" way.



The goal is to gain a better position than being in your opponent's guard which is considered an inferior position.

Steve posted an example of an alternative.

The goal is to practice or demonstrate the technique, besides, how do you know they did not do it under full resistance off camera?

 

[K-man]

What is the alternative from the guard break? What are the next goals and intent?

The goal is to gain a better position than being in your opponent's guard which is considered an inferior position.


Steve posted an example of an alternative.

jezr asked a valid question to which you gave an excellent response. However, that 'better position' to most martial artists would be to regain your feet, not continue grappling.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Their is an argument for what you say. I could go into a complicated post about winning scrambles and the turtle. But at the basic level we are discussing if you are falling on your back and you can. Pull guard.

If I were falling on my back I would rather look to either get up immediately or kick them before they get on top of me. Failing that then I might try something like that but it would not be my first choice.

 

[seasoned]

jezr asked a valid question to which you gave an excellent response. However, that 'better position' to most martial artists would be to regain your feet, not continue grappling.

Bingo

 

[RTKDCMB]

Since we are talking about Aikido and resistance at the moment"

 

[Hanzou]

Actually it is not, it is an statement on something that is not wise to do in the street followed by a question about a book.

Actually it is. Ground fighting is an effective form of self defense. This has been demonstrated numerous times in many threads.

 

[Hanzou]

Sankyo done in grappling against a decent grappler now I know this isnt anti grappling but this is more of my approach on how TMA can add to MMA. You can even tell this guys opponent has grappled him before by the way he was trying to keep his hands away from him LOL.


Check out this video on YouTube:

aikido wrist lock (sankyo) in grappling - YouTube


Sent from my iPhone

Good vid. Wrist locks are actually taught in Bjj;

 

[Hanzou]

So exactly what here is a bash against BJJ? Or do you think that rolling around on the ground in a battlefield is the best strategy?

You didn't say the battlefield, you said the street. Effectively saying that Bjj isn't good for street fighting or self defense. If I had said that about Aikido, you'd be having a fit.

So now you are also an expert on Chin Na Fa as well?

No, I'm trying to prevent you from buying a bad book. The pictures are bad, and the explanations are minimal. I was highly disappointed. It's not even worth $20 IMO.

You're welcome.

 

[Hanzou]

The goal is to practice or demonstrate the technique..

Which is fine. However if you're demonstrating a technique, you should demonstrate it as it would appear in a live situation, and attempt to include the variables. You shouldn't demonstrate a technique that has zero applicability in a live situation.

besides, how do you know they did not do it under full resistance off camera?

The issue isn't resistance level. The issue is the lack of a "realistic" response. It's like me demonstrating a rear naked choke, but I got to that rear naked choke by poking my partner in the head, causing him to spin around and land on his stomach, giving me his back. The RNC I'm going to demonstrate is now pointless because there's no way that poke in the head would generate that type of response in a live situation.

 

[Hanzou]

jezr asked a valid question to which you gave an excellent response. However, that 'better position' to most martial artists would be to regain your feet, not continue grappling.

Which is what the Aikidoka actually does in one part of the video, and was frankly the best part of the video.

If the video was him simply escaping the guard and getting back to his feet, I would have no problem with it. However as soon as he begins to pass guard and ground fight, the video rapidly loses credibility.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Effectively saying that Bjj isn't good for street fighting or self defense.

I'll say it. And I'll clarify so that there's no confusion; BJJ, as taught within a sport context is no good (sub-optimal) for street fighting or self defense. That's why Royce no longer gets invited to teach at the regional training center. The HL coordinator that was infatuated with the flavor-of-the-month, yet had no personal, practical experience in the field is gone and so is Gracie. People started realizing, 'hey this is some cool stuff...but we can't actually use it in the field'.

Some will probably take this as a slam on BJJ. But it isn't. BJJ has some elements, that aren't designed for the sport venue that are quite practical for self defense. But the typical sport variety is sub-optimal and in fact detrimental. Sport BJJ has the luxury of taking an opponent to the ground and looking for the opportunity to get the submission. In a self defense situation, you don't have that luxury. Being on the ground/staying on the ground is fool hardy at best. Looking to get a submission on an attacker while on the ground means you're not using better methods to gain your feet and scan your surroundings for additional threats. The video offered in the sparring thread proves this point quite clearly. The guy on the ground was oblivious to his surroundings and was dialed in on getting a triangle choke rather than regaining his feet. Neither is a sound tactic for self defense. As I mentioned, change just one factor and the outcome is different i.e. the guy on top has a buddy in the crowd that kicks the guy on the bottom to sleep.

Does this mean BJJ is stupid or useless? No, it does not. It is quite useful in the venue for which the sport version was designed. But too many people confuse one methodology with the wrong venue. I'd rather see someone using sound BJJ strategies and tactics in a real fight than the sport stuff. What would be a good example of this? If you're on top of someone, or get on top of someone during a scuffle, digging your elbow into their inner thigh or groin in order to facilitate the opportunity to regain a standing position. Or using the elbow or forearm to strike into the groin in order to attempt to incapacitate/immobilize (even temporarily) the person so that you can regain your feet. In this way you can scan the immediate area for additional threats, perhaps facilitate escaping the situation, obtaining an improvised weapon, calling/signaling for help etc. All useful tactics in a self defense situation.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll say it. And I'll clarify so that there's no confusion; BJJ, as taught within a sport context is no good (sub-optimal) for street fighting or self defense. That's why Royce no longer gets invited to teach at the regional training center. The HL coordinator that was infatuated with the flavor-of-the-month, yet had no personal, practical experience in the field is gone and so is Gracie. People started realizing, 'hey this is some cool stuff...but we can't actually use it in the field'.

Some will probably take this as a slam on BJJ. But it isn't. BJJ has some elements, that aren't designed for the sport venue that are quite practical for self defense. But the typical sport variety is sub-optimal and in fact detrimental. Sport BJJ has the luxury of taking an opponent to the ground and looking for the opportunity to get the submission. In a self defense situation, you don't have that luxury. Being on the ground/staying on the ground is fool hardy at best. Looking to get a submission on an attacker while on the ground means you're not using better methods to gain your feet and scan your surroundings for additional threats. The video offered in the sparring thread proves this point quite clearly. The guy on the ground was oblivious to his surroundings and was dialed in on getting a triangle choke rather than regaining his feet. Neither is a sound tactic for self defense. As I mentioned, change just one factor and the outcome is different i.e. the guy on top has a buddy in the crowd that kicks the guy on the bottom to sleep.

So if a woman is suddenly in a compromising position from a boyfriend or a spouse, and she pulls guard in order to apply a triangle choke, or a guard sweep in order to end up in a mounted position so that she could apply a better choke and escape, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for self defense?

So if a young man gets tackled to the ground by a larger person, and quickly transitions to the mounted position and places the attacker in an arm and wrist lock, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for street fighting?