Anti-grappling.

[Kong Soo Do]

So if a woman is suddenly in a compromising position from a boyfriend or a spouse, and she pulls guard in order to apply a triangle choke, or a guard sweep in order to end up in a mounted position so that she could apply a better choke and escape, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for self defense?

First, a choke isn't necessarily a sport application. It can be, but is also a self defense application, it isn't exclusive to one or the other. The difference is the context in which it is applied.

Let's examine the context of the environment in which she is attacked. Is this a one-on-one situation? If so, she has options available to her. She doesn't have to worry about a secondary attack. So perhaps she has the luxury of time and focus to place the attacker in a choke in order to end the confrontation. To better her odds though I would suggest not being so dialed in on getting the choke (as the guy was in the video offered in the sparring thread) that she doesn't take an opportunity presented to obtain an improvised weapon in her vicinity. Additionally, there have been real world attacks in which the woman had the opportunity to grab and squeeze the testicle of the attacking man which ended the attack. If choking is the best option available then apply it. If the opportunity to gouge an eye, or crushing the testicles, or jamming a fingernail up into the armpit or a strike to the throat or regaining the feet or gaining the use of an improvised weapon presents itself it should be taken. And all of these options should be trained for in regards to a self defense situation.

Again, it is situational and if one factor changes, the game plan needs to change accordingly. How readily she is able to change gears under duress/stress/injury will depend on her training.

So if a young man gets tackled to the ground by a larger person, and quickly transitions to the mounted position and places the attacker in an arm and wrist lock, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for street fighting?

In this example, is placing the person in an arm and wrist lock the best solution? It may very well be the best solution, but this depends upon the context of the attack. If drunk uncle Bob tackles his nephew at the family BBQ and the nephew gets into the mounted position, as per your example, then he may only want to control the situation and not 'destroy' his uncle in front of the family. In this context, he probably doesn't have to worry about a secondary attack and can concentrate on controlling his idiot uncle without damaging him unnecessarily.

But let's change the context of the attack. The young man is alone, the large man has buddies. An arm and wrist lock is no longer his best option because it would tie him up in this position and leave him vulnerable to secondary attacks. Doing something to at least temporarily incapacitating the large man and regaining his feet to be able to fend off additional attack, or better yet, to escape the situation would be a better option.

Again, as with the above, an arm and wrist lock is not exclusive to sport. I use locks far more than I do other elements i.e. striking etc. But I do so when it is appropriate to the situation. And I train for all of the other considerations so that I have the option to use the best response.

 

[Hanzou]

First, a choke isn't necessarily a sport application. It can be, but is also a self defense application, it isn't exclusive to one or the other. The difference is the context in which it is applied.

Now you're splitting hairs. You said the following;

I'll say it. And I'll clarify so that there's no confusion; BJJ, as taught within a sport context is no good (sub-optimal) for street fighting or self defense.

Chokes are taught in sport Bjj. Additionally those chokes are perfectly applicable to a SD scenario, you've admitted as much yourself.

Let's examine the context of the environment in which she is attacked.

Let's not, because there's no need to go into hyper detail here (we can discuss variables another time). The basic point is that a woman can use skills taught in sport Bjj for self defense, and those skills can be very effective in a SD scenario. That falsifies your statement above.

You agreed with this general point because you agreed that chokes can be an effective self defense tool. Combine chokes with the ability to control position (again taught in sport Bjj), and you have a very potent combination.

In this example, is placing the person in an arm and wrist lock the best solution? It may very well be the best solution, but this depends upon the context of the attack.

Indeed it does, but I'm talking in general here, since you made a very general statement. If you add enough variables, all martial arts eventually become uneffective for self defense.

Again, as with the above, an arm and wrist lock is not exclusive to sport.

You said that sport Bjj is no good for self defense or street fighting. The arm lock and wrist lock are both part of sport Bjj, so saying that those locks (and chokes) are somehow effective in other arts, but not in sport Bjj is either a contradiction, or a style bash.

Take your pick.

Also, I'd also like to point out that Royce wouldn't be teaching sport Bjj in a self defense seminar, so you're not really just talking about sport Bjj here. You're talking Bjj in general.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Now you're splitting hairs.

Nope.

Chokes are taught in sport Bjj. Additionally those chokes are perfectly applicable to a SD scenario, you've admitted as much yourself.

Are chokes taught in sport BJJ? Yes. Are chokes taught in WWII Combatives? Yes. Neither have the same focus. We aren't discussing the techniques in-and-of-itself (at least I'm not, you seem to be grabbing at straws), but rather the appropriate application of the techniques within the confines of the venue in which it is used.

Let's not, because there's no need to go into hyper detail here (we can discuss variables another time).

Yes, lets go into hyper detail as it is obviously needed and germane to the discussion.

The basic point is that a woman can use skills taught in sport Bjj for self defense, and those skills can be very effective in a SD scenario.

Again, it isn't the specific skill but the appropriate application, or choice not to apply, within the context of the attack. A choke isn't sport or self defense...it is simply a choke. If used in a sport venue then you MUST have certain factors in place i.e. the time and luxury, a single attacker, no weapons and on and on. In a self defense situation you cannot rely on these same factors being in place. They may be, they may not be. Regardless, it is folly to depend that they will be. Thus in a self defense situation, a choke may be the best solution to the problem...or it can be an incredibly stupid thing to do. In a self defense situation, staying on the ground and putting someone in an arm lock may be the best option to solve the problem...or it could be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

You seem to be intent on making sport training the best thing for self defense. Sorry, it isn't. Self defense training takes what is applicable from any methodology and applies it to the specifics of a real world altercation. So many 'things' are common between the two. Both punch, kick, lock and choke. But the appropriate application differs as do the factors as related to both.

The arm lock and wrist lock are both part of sport Bjj, so saying that those locks (and chokes) are somehow effective in other arts, but not in sport Bjj is either a contradiction, or a style bash.

You unfortunately are taking it as such, but it isn't either.

Also, I'd also like to point out that Royce wouldn't be teaching sport Bjj in a self defense seminar, so you're not really just talking about sport Bjj here. You're talking Bjj in general.

Really? He wouldn't? It's odd, because he was doing exactly that, I was there and I don't recall seeing you. Which means one of us has first hand knowledge with what he was doing and one of us doesn't. I'll let you guess which is which.

 

[Steve]

Actually it is not, it is an statement on something that is not wise to do in the street followed by a question about a book.

In the same spirit, that guard pass is unwise. Without securing an undertook, you will get your back taken. It is a statement on something that is not wise to do... Anywhere.

As others have said, the technique is recognizable as a cross knee slide guard pass. That is the second pass I was taught in bjj. It's just clear that the demonstrator isn't proficient as he misses at least one critical detail.

Also, from the way he moves in the video, even were the technique detailed correctly, I'm not confident that he could make it work.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Hanzou]

Nope.

Attempting to differentiate the purpose of a choke when it serves the same purpose in both applications is splitting hairs.

Are chokes taught in sport BJJ? Yes. Are chokes taught in WWII Combatives? Yes. Neither have the same focus. We aren't discussing the techniques in-and-of-itself (at least I'm not, you seem to be grabbing at straws), but rather the appropriate application of the techniques within the confines of the venue in which it is used.

So please explain how a properly applied choke (let's use Rickson Gracie's Rear Naked Choke as an example) wouldn't work in a self defense situation?

Yes, lets go into hyper detail as it is obviously needed and germane to the discussion.

There's no need to. If your statement is true, then sport Bjj is ineffective in all SD situations. In fact, you even said that sport Bjj would hinder someone in a SD situation.

Again, it isn't the specific skill but the appropriate application, or choice not to apply, within the context of the attack. A choke isn't sport or self defense...it is simply a choke. If used in a sport venue then you MUST have certain factors in place i.e. the time and luxury, a single attacker, no weapons and on and on. In a self defense situation you cannot rely on these same factors being in place. They may be, they may not be. Regardless, it is folly to depend that they will be. Thus in a self defense situation, a choke may be the best solution to the problem...or it can be an incredibly stupid thing to do. In a self defense situation, staying on the ground and putting someone in an arm lock may be the best option to solve the problem...or it could be an incredibly stupid thing to do.

So again;

So if a woman is suddenly in a compromising position from a boyfriend or a spouse, and she pulls guard in order to apply a triangle choke, or a guard sweep in order to end up in a mounted position so that she could apply a better choke and escape, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for self defense?

You seem to be intent on making sport training the best thing for self defense.

I never said that. Where are you pulling this from?

You unfortunately are taking it as such, but it isn't either.

Actually it is.

Really? He wouldn't? It's odd, because he was doing exactly that, I was there and I don't recall seeing you. Which means one of us has first hand knowledge with what he was doing and one of us doesn't. I'll let you guess which is which.

I've been to a few Royce Gracie seminars in various Bjj gyms. He's never shown sport-based technique in any of them. Why would he teach a sport-based seminar to a bunch of LEOs at a self-defense based seminar? Your story makes no logical sense.

Maybe you just don't know the difference between sport Bjj and self defense-based Bjj? Or, maybe you think all Bjj is sport-based?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Attempting to differentiate the purpose of a choke when it serves the same purpose in both applications is splitting hairs.

You're not understanding, or refusing to understand that I'm talking about the venue and the factors that affect the venue. What may make a choke a good choice in a competition venue does not necessarily apply to self defense. In essence, a choke maybe be an excellent choice in a sport venue yet be incredibly stupid in a self defense venue. The difference is the factors involved. Why are you not understanding this?

So please explain how a properly applied choke (let's use Rickson Gracie's Rear Naked Choke as an example) wouldn't work in a self defense situation?

I already have, several time in fact. I've posted this before and everyone seemed to agree. I'll repost it again. It isn't a rear naked choke, but the actual technique isn't the point, the venue is the point.

Here is a great thing for the sporting venue:

View attachment 18974

Here's the same thing in the 'street'. Same thing, yet a very bad idea.

View attachment 18975

Again, we aren't talking about a specific technique, we are talking about it's application in a specific venue (at least that's what I'm talking about). A choke isn't sport and it isn't street, it is simply a choke. Where it is applied (venue) can make a very big difference. Do you not understand this?

In fact, you even said that sport Bjj would hinder someone in a SD situation.

I used the word detrimental, but it serves the same purpose. Why would it be detrimental? Let's take yet another look (though I've listed this multiple times before).

• Does sport BJJ (or any sport) train you to de-escalate the situation before it becomes a physical altercation? I've never seen them train that way. Some fights can be avoided or the aggressor talked down. The reason sport BJJ doesn't need this is because it doesn't use it. Imagine two fighters in the octagon and one tries to de-escalate the other prior to the match starting. That would make a pretty boring pay-per-view wouldn't it. Yet the opportunity may well exist in many self defense situations.
• Does sport BJJ train to escape or evade? I've not seen any MMA fighters run and jump over the fence to prevent the fight from happening. Would kind of suck to have your opponent run away or evade you using barriers in a match. Pretty good idea in a self defense situation though it you are able to do so.
• Does sport BJJ use firearms, edged weapons, car keys, car antennas or other improvised weapons? I've yet to see an ultimate fighter throw sand in the other persons face to distract them. Or a 'stun-n-run'.
• Does sport BJJ train to yell and scream to attract help prior to or during an altercation? Seems like a good idea if you're attacked in a parking lot.
• Does sport BJJ train for multiple opponents? I've yet to see three guys against one in a match.

These are just a few factors to consider. Sport BJJ is great for what it was design for...sport BJJ matches. But SD obviously requires a whole host of other training that is specific to the venue. If a person only trains for sport and never trains in these other factors they are behind the eight ball. They aren't going to suddenly 'do' this stuff when under duress/stress/injury.

So if a woman is suddenly in a compromising position from a boyfriend or a spouse, and she pulls guard in order to apply a triangle choke, or a guard sweep in order to end up in a mounted position so that she could apply a better choke and escape, you're saying that those skills (all of which are applicable to sport Bjj) weren't good for self defense?

Did you actually read my reply to this question? Seriously, did you read it and try to understand it? I've answered it clearly and in detail.

I've been to a few Royce Gracie seminars in various Bjj gyms.

Which means you've not been to all of them. Which means you've not seen what he has taught to every group he's ever trained.

He's never shown sport-based technique in any of them.

Which makes me hopeful that he's learned a valuable lesson from past mistakes.

Why would he teach a sport-based seminar to a bunch of LEOs at a self-defense based seminar?

Precisely my point.

Maybe you just don't know the difference between sport Bjj and self defense-based Bjj?

Since I already differentiated between the two, and given examples between the two I'd say it's a good bet that I do know the difference.

Or, maybe you think all Bjj is sport-based?

And had you read, in detail, my above posts you would again have seen I made a distinction between the two.

 

[drop bear]

If I were falling on my back I would rather look to either get up immediately or kick them before they get on top of me. Failing that then I might try something like that but it would not be my first choice.

OK. If you have been knocked over you are not trying to take them down with you?

 

[drop bear]

• Does sport BJJ train to escape or evade? I've not seen any MMA fighters run and jump over the fence to prevent the fight from happening. Would kind of suck to have your opponent run away or evade you using barriers in a match. Pretty good idea in a self defense situation though it you are able to do so.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccfbTG9im0

 

[Kong Soo Do]

• Does sport BJJ train to escape or evade? I've not seen any MMA fighters run and jump over the fence to prevent the fight from happening. Would kind of suck to have your opponent run away or evade you using barriers in a match. Pretty good idea in a self defense situation though it you are able to do so.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccfbTG9im0

I stand corrected, that was hilarious! :rofl:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The issue is the lack of a "realistic" response.

This is the most issue for the online clips. If you have developed something new (such as "anti-grappling"), but you only test it against people in your own style, the clips that you have created may not be realistic enough.

When 2 MA styles test against each other, both styles will evolve. The issue is, some people don't mind to evolve, others do. Many years ago, I had suggested a Judo friend of mine to include no-Gi train. Today, he still doesn't like to take that path. I assume "to test your skill against people from other systems" is not a common method after all.

 

[Hanzou]

You're not understanding, or refusing to understand that I'm talking about the venue and the factors that affect the venue. What may make a choke a good choice in a competition venue does not necessarily apply to self defense. In essence, a choke maybe be an excellent choice in a sport venue yet be incredibly stupid in a self defense venue. The difference is the factors involved. Why are you not understanding this?



I already have, several time in fact. I've posted this before and everyone seemed to agree. I'll repost it again. It isn't a rear naked choke, but the actual technique isn't the point, the venue is the point.

Here is a great thing for the sporting venue:

View attachment 18974

Here's the same thing in the 'street'. Same thing, yet a very bad idea.

View attachment 18975

Again, we aren't talking about a specific technique, we are talking about it's application in a specific venue (at least that's what I'm talking about). A choke isn't sport and it isn't street, it is simply a choke. Where it is applied (venue) can make a very big difference. Do you not understand this?

And here we have a woman who used that exact same "sport" technique to stop an armed rapist;

Female US Sailor Triangle Chokes Rapist! - Gracie News
Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai | Bjj Eastern Europe

I used the word detrimental, but it serves the same purpose. Why would it be detrimental? Let's take yet another look (though I've listed this multiple times before).

• Does sport BJJ (or any sport) train you to de-escalate the situation before it becomes a physical altercation? I've never seen them train that way. Some fights can be avoided or the aggressor talked down. The reason sport BJJ doesn't need this is because it doesn't use it. Imagine two fighters in the octagon and one tries to de-escalate the other prior to the match starting. That would make a pretty boring pay-per-view wouldn't it. Yet the opportunity may well exist in many self defense situations.
• Does sport BJJ train to escape or evade? I've not seen any MMA fighters run and jump over the fence to prevent the fight from happening. Would kind of suck to have your opponent run away or evade you using barriers in a match. Pretty good idea in a self defense situation though it you are able to do so.
• Does sport BJJ use firearms, edged weapons, car keys, car antennas or other improvised weapons? I've yet to see an ultimate fighter throw sand in the other persons face to distract them. Or a 'stun-n-run'.
• Does sport BJJ train to yell and scream to attract help prior to or during an altercation? Seems like a good idea if you're attacked in a parking lot.
• Does sport BJJ train for multiple opponents? I've yet to see three guys against one in a match.

These are just a few factors to consider. Sport BJJ is great for what it was design for...sport BJJ matches. But SD obviously requires a whole host of other training that is specific to the venue. If a person only trains for sport and never trains in these other factors they are behind the eight ball. They aren't going to suddenly 'do' this stuff when under duress/stress/injury.

Here's Ryan Hall, a sport Bjj stylist who used several of those attributes when he had to defend himself in a restaurant;

But Bjj isn't good for self defense right?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But Bjj isn't good for self defense right?

Finally we agree on something :rofl:

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

And here we have a woman who used that exact same "sport" technique to stop an armed rapist;

Female US Sailor Triangle Chokes Rapist! - Gracie News
Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai | Bjj Eastern Europe



Here's Ryan Hall, a sport Bjj stylist who used several of those attributes when he had to defend himself in a restaurant;

But Bjj isn't good for self defense right?

I didn't comment on this video earlier but will now since if hope most martial artist would be able to handle someone that waste with ease.

Not saying BJJ isn't good for self defense i just think a video of a pro BJJ competitor taking out a super drunk person isn't the best example of how it could be a great self defense system.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Sorry about the typos because the iphone spell unassist is pretty amazing and for some reason i cant edit posts correctly

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't comment on this video earlier but will now since if hope most martial artist would be able to handle someone that waste with ease.

Not saying BJJ isn't good for self defense i just think a video of a pro BJJ competitor taking out a super drunk person isn't the best example of how it could be a great self defense system.

Well why isn't it? Super drunk people are dangerous as well. Especially super drunk people who are bigger than you are and want to cave your face in.

Ryan did a great job here. He consistently tried to talk the guy down and avoid a confrontation. When that didn't work, he restrained the guy without hurting him. When that didn't work he put him to sleep completely. All without seriously hurting the guy.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Well why isn't it? Super drunk people are dangerous as well. Especially super drunk people who are bigger than you are and want to cave your face in.

Ryan did a great job here. He consistently tried to talk the guy down and avoid a confrontation. When that didn't work, he restrained the guy without hurting him. When that didn't work he put him to sleep completely. All without seriously hurting the guy.

Exactly what I've had to do with several of my belligerent friends when they were pill popping drunk idiots (3 different occasions from two of my close friends that also studied judo and or ShootFighting) when I was in my mid 20's. Except i didn't choke them out I just pinned them face down while having a typical cop wrist lock.

I'm just saying that its not super impressive to be able to manhandle a belligerent drunk people when you have martial arts experience especially if you are a competitive martial artist.

Did he use BJJ correctly in that scenario yes but it's still not super impressive to use this as a self defense scenario. You can see most of his friends that were with him and including himself really didn't see the drunk guy as a super threatening opponent.

Not trying to downplay BJJ effectiveness just like i wouldn't be downplaying a striker that annihilated a belligerent drunk im just saying not the best example of a self defense scenario.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly what I've had to do with several of my belligerent friends when they were pill popping drunk idiots (3 different occasions from two of my close friends that also studied judo and or ShootFighting) when I was in my mid 20's. Except i didn't choke them out I just pinned them face down while having a typical cop wrist lock.

I'm just saying that its not super impressive to be able to manhandle a belligerent drunk people when you have martial arts experience especially if you are a competitive martial artist.

Did he use BJJ correctly in that scenario yes but it's still not super impressive to use this as a self defense scenario. You can see most of his friends that were with him and including himself really didn't see the drunk guy as a super threatening opponent.

Not trying to downplay BJJ effectiveness just like i wouldn't be downplaying a striker that annihilated a belligerent drunk im just saying not the best example of a self defense scenario.

That is self defence though. When people claim proven in the streets. What are they claiming? A bellegerant drunk or fighting off ten men in a death match. There is no standard.

Which is why this stuff needs to be tested in the gym and not by stories and ridiculous hypothetical.

OK let's try this.

A triangle choke does not work if an extra person comes in and sniper hits the person while he is doing it. I mean I will put that as legitimate anti grapple. Defence from triangle. Have extra guy there ready to jump.

But I am pretty well willing to say that is a technique that would fend of an eye gouge or chain punching or pretty much any defence you are trying to pull off.

This is actually a proven method. It is not called street. It is called having a bodyguard.

 

[drop bear]

I'll say it. And I'll clarify so that there's no confusion; BJJ, as taught within a sport context is no good (sub-optimal) for street fighting or self defense. That's why Royce no longer gets invited to teach at the regional training center. The HL coordinator that was infatuated with the flavor-of-the-month, yet had no personal, practical experience in the field is gone and so is Gracie. People started realizing, 'hey this is some cool stuff...but we can't actually use it in the field'.

Some will probably take this as a slam on BJJ. But it isn't. BJJ has some elements, that aren't designed for the sport venue that are quite practical for self defense. But the typical sport variety is sub-optimal and in fact detrimental. Sport BJJ has the luxury of taking an opponent to the ground and looking for the opportunity to get the submission. In a self defense situation, you don't have that luxury. Being on the ground/staying on the ground is fool hardy at best. Looking to get a submission on an attacker while on the ground means you're not using better methods to gain your feet and scan your surroundings for additional threats. The video offered in the sparring thread proves this point quite clearly. The guy on the ground was oblivious to his surroundings and was dialed in on getting a triangle choke rather than regaining his feet. Neither is a sound tactic for self defense. As I mentioned, change just one factor and the outcome is different i.e. the guy on top has a buddy in the crowd that kicks the guy on the bottom to sleep.

Does this mean BJJ is stupid or useless? No, it does not. It is quite useful in the venue for which the sport version was designed. But too many people confuse one methodology with the wrong venue. I'd rather see someone using sound BJJ strategies and tactics in a real fight than the sport stuff. What would be a good example of this? If you're on top of someone, or get on top of someone during a scuffle, digging your elbow into their inner thigh or groin in order to facilitate the opportunity to regain a standing position. Or using the elbow or forearm to strike into the groin in order to attempt to incapacitate/immobilize (even temporarily) the person so that you can regain your feet. In this way you can scan the immediate area for additional threats, perhaps facilitate escaping the situation, obtaining an improvised weapon, calling/signaling for help etc. All useful tactics in a self defense situation.

Which explains this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H7vke9rltfE

Now don't think I am bashing cops. The training they do is great for its venue like issuing speeding fines. but if you want to be able to hold a guy you really have to know how to wrestle.

 

[drop bear]

The bjj anti grapple.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HncwGDTNsxo

And pretty much if you have the numbers and go in hard you have a pretty good success rate.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I alway find these threads where it involves something with TMA & Grappling entertaining.

Like i said in a previous post the video just isn't the BEST example of how BJJ can be a great system of self defense.

Check out this video on YouTube:

Check out this video on YouTube:

Sent from my iPhone

Personally id feel these are better examples of what grappling can do for you in a self defense scenario since its not a pro fighter man handling a drunk.

Does grappling work for self defense yes.

As a grappler and a TMA guy would I want to be rolling around on the ground in those videos not really.

My reasons would be because both videos has multiple people (potential threats) around them and I would say the white guy has what resembles a knife in his belt on the second video.

But did grappling work well in those videos you better believe it but I wouldn't want to put my self in those positions.