Anti-grappling.

[drop bear]

I alway find these threads where it involves something with TMA & Grappling entertaining.

Like i said in a previous post the video just isn't the BEST example of how BJJ can be a great system of self defense.

Check out this video on YouTube:

Guy Got Jiu-Jitsu Triangle In Street Fight - YouTube

Check out this video on YouTube:

Street fight with brazilian jiu jitsu moves and more! - YouTube


Sent from my iPhone

Personally id feel these are better examples of what grappling can do for you in a self defense scenario since its not a pro fighter man handling a drunk.

Does grappling work for self defense yes.

As a grappler and a TMA guy would I want to be rolling around on the ground in those videos not really.

My reasons would be because both videos has multiple people (potential threats) around them and I would say the white guy has what resembles a knife in his belt on the second video.

But did grappling work well in those videos you better believe it but I wouldn't want to put my self in those positions.

Second video shows that jumping in as the third man is risky because of the fourth man who gets you. Which is why these dogmatic rules of what happens in the street don't always reflect what happens in the street.

You are always vulnerable to that extra guy.

But OK do you think in the second video the blond guy should have pulled the knife?

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Second video shows that jumping in as the third man is risky because of the fourth man who gets you. Which is why these dogmatic rules of what happens in the street don't always reflect what happens in the street.

You are always vulnerable to that extra guy.

But OK do you think in the second video the blond guy should have pulled the knife?

I just used those videos to show that BJJ is effective and that those videos show off BJJ capabilities a bit better then the pro fighter man handling the drunk guy.

It also shows that the ground is a very dangerous place to be with all the random people around them and that even in the second video could have easily turned in to a knifing if the white guy started to get dominated.

No I don't think the blond guy should have pulled a knife im just pointing out that it was there and that either person could have easily used grabbed it and used it while grappling.

 

[drop bear]

I just used those videos to show that BJJ is effective and that those videos show off BJJ capabilities a bit better then the pro fighter man handling the drunk guy.

It also shows that the ground is a very dangerous place to be with all the random people around them and that even in the second video could have easily turned in to a knifing if the white guy started to get dominated.

No I don't think the blond guy should have pulled a knife im just pointing out that it was there and that either person could have easily used grabbed it and used it while grappling.

You don't think you are being too specific there?

A fight is dangerous with the random people and could have ended with a knifing at almost any stage.

You are playing a risk vs reward game. On the ground is more vulnerable to the environment and outside attack vs maybe being in a better position and ending the fight quicker with less risk.

That debate would be situational rather than system based debate.

(I don't mean situational like the street. There is no the street. There are a lot of specific circumstances that may require you to problem solve on the fly.)

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

You don't think you are being too specific there?

A fight is dangerous with the random people and could have ended with a knifing at almost any stage.

You are playing a risk vs reward game. On the ground is more vulnerable to the environment and outside attack vs maybe being in a better position and ending the fight quicker with less risk.

That debate would be situational rather than system based debate.

(I don't mean situational like the street. There is no the street. There are a lot of specific circumstances that may require you to problem solve on the fly.)

Not being too specific I guess just being too observant & opinionated.

With my background there's a high probability that I would take a person down to the ground and go for a ground and pound or submission.

In a street scenario the ground is the last place I personally want to be due to lack of mobility of escaping weapon and multiple opponents attacks or having the ground used as a striking object as well.

I'm not saying grappling arts can't be used as self defense arts but personally don't understand why it's such a hard ideal for people to realize why its not good positioning to go to the ground rather then keep it standing up where you can still strike, clinch, lock and throw people to the ground then either stomp kick or take evasive actions.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

With my background there's a high probability that I would take a person down to the ground and go for a ground and pound or submission.

Sorry left out in the ring there would be a high probability id use this strategy.

 

[Steve]

Not being too specific I guess just being too observant & opinionated.

With my background there's a high probability that I would take a person down to the ground and go for a ground and pound or submission.

In a street scenario the ground is the last place I personally want to be due to lack of mobility of escaping weapon and multiple opponents attacks or having the ground used as a striking object as well.

I'm not saying grappling arts can't be used as self defense arts but personally don't understand why it's such a hard ideal for people to realize why its not good positioning to go to the ground rather then keep it standing up where you can still strike, clinch, lock and throw people to the ground then either stomp kick or take evasive actions.

It's been said about a dozen times already that it's easy to see why staying on your feet is preferable to being on the ground.

And it's also been said about a dozen times that you don't always have a choice.

Here's a summary of the conversation so far:
Person a: "I will stay on my feet."
B: "Yeah, but what if you can't."
A: "But, I will."
B: "Yeah. But, worst case, the bad guy or guys get you on the ground. How are you going to defend yourself?"
A: "They won't.... But if they do, I'll stand back up, because I'm badass like that. Why can't you accept that the ground isn't a good idea?"
B: "What? Who said that? Of course it is. But what if you're under mount getting beat up?""
C: "Besides, my style is impervious to takedowns."
B: "you mean like this video?"
C: "yeah. Isn't it awesome?"
B: "no. It's really not."
A: " hey stop bashing his art!"

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[K-man]

It's been said about a dozen times already that it's easy to see why staying on your feet is preferable to being on the ground.

And it's also been said about a dozen times that you don't always have a choice.

Here's a summary of the conversation so far:
Person a: "I will stay on my feet."
B: "Yeah, but what if you can't."
A: "But, I will."
B: "Yeah. But, worst case, the bad guy or guys get you on the ground. How are you going to defend yourself?"
A: "They won't.... But if they do, I'll stand back up, because I'm badass like that. Why can't you accept that the ground isn't a good idea?"
B: "What? Who said that? Of course it is. But what if you're under mount getting beat up?""
C: "Besides, my style is impervious to takedowns."
B: "you mean like this video?"
C: "yeah. Isn't it awesome?"
B: "no. It's really not."
A: " hey stop bashing his art!"

Perhaps we should add a little bit of honesty.

Person A: "I will try stay on my feet."
B: "Yeah, but what if you can't."
A: "Well if I do get taken to the ground I will try to regain my feet as soon as I can."
B: "Yeah. But, worst case, the bad guy or guys get you on the ground. How are you going to defend yourself?"
A: "They might, and if they do I'll hope my training will enable me to defend myself until I can get back up. Why can't you accept that the ground isn't a good idea?" (Good Question )
B: "What? Who said that? Of course it is. But what if you're under mount getting beat up?"
A: "I've trained to escape the mount from people with moderate grappling skill."
C: "Besides, my style is impervious to takedowns." (Really? I'm not sure anyone claimed that! )
B: "you mean like this video?"
C: "yeah. Isn't it awesome?" (Really? Did anyone say that?)
B: "no. It's really not."
A: "Hey stop bashing this art!" (I think that is the only valuable thing you have put in your entire post ... well done!)

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

It's been said about a dozen times already that it's easy to see why staying on your feet is preferable to being on the ground.

And it's also been said about a dozen times that you don't always have a choice.

Here's a summary of the conversation so far:
Person a: "I will stay on my feet."
B: "Yeah, but what if you can't."
A: "But, I will."
B: "Yeah. But, worst case, the bad guy or guys get you on the ground. How are you going to defend yourself?"
A: "They won't.... But if they do, I'll stand back up, because I'm badass like that. Why can't you accept that the ground isn't a good idea?"
B: "What? Who said that? Of course it is. But what if you're under mount getting beat up?""
C: "Besides, my style is impervious to takedowns."
B: "you mean like this video?"
C: "yeah. Isn't it awesome?"
B: "no. It's really not."
A: " hey stop bashing his art!"

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I'm not bashing his art I actually started with ShootFighting and then Judo and BJJ then went to traditional Kung fu and now aikido.

I just had to comment on what I thought in the repost of the pro fighter taking on the belligerent drunk and then post some videos of a more realistic grappling street fights and then the risks of it.

I guess I could be wrong and the possibility of weapons, multiple opponents, getting bashed against the ground and lack of mobility are not just as big of a risk if not more of a risk when your grappling compared to standing while in a street altercation.

I just have been responding to the questions that my post #400 had started.

 

[drop bear]

Not being too specific I guess just being too observant & opinionated.

With my background there's a high probability that I would take a person down to the ground and go for a ground and pound or submission.

In a street scenario the ground is the last place I personally want to be due to lack of mobility of escaping weapon and multiple opponents attacks or having the ground used as a striking object as well.

I'm not saying grappling arts can't be used as self defense arts but personally don't understand why it's such a hard ideal for people to realize why its not good positioning to go to the ground rather then keep it standing up where you can still strike, clinch, lock and throw people to the ground then either stomp kick or take evasive actions.

Because they can strike,clinch, lock and throw you to the ground and stomp you as well. You are giving up a dominant position to fight from a fifty/fifty.

You are giving them more chance to win.

Arnt you concerned all this standing up will get you knocked out and left vulnerable to multiple attackers?

 

[drop bear]

By the way anti grapple.

Guard pass.
Side control.
Knee ride .
Stand up.

Probably the simplest and most direct route.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

By the way anti grapple.

Guard pass.
Side control.
Knee ride .
Stand up.

Probably the simplest and most direct route.

I like to start it from:

- avoid clinch (don't let your opponent to get clinch on you),
- counter clinch (take advantage on your opponent's clinch and apply joint locking on him),
- throw resistance (remain balance and body structure, ...),
- counter throw (take your opponent down instead),
- ...

This is more aggressive way of thinking. If you try to take me down, I will take advantage on your take down commitment, apply take down counter, and take you down instead. Of course, when you think this way, the term "anti-grappling" will have no meaning.

May be "avoid clinch" should be the highest priority of "anti-grappling".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When a guy tries to pull down a girls' pants, will that girl

1. resist as hard as she can? or
2. not resist at all? or
3. help that guy to pull her pants off? or
4. try to take the guy's pants off instead?

When your opponent tries to take you down, will you

1. resist as hard as you can? or
2. not resist at all? or
3. help your opponent and go down with him? or
4. use "pull guard", "jump guard" to drag your opponent down?

In so many pages of "anti-grappling" discussion, the issue of "take down resistance" has not be discussed much. Why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

dup, deleted.

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK. If you have been knocked over you are not trying to take them down with you?

No because then it would be harder to get back up.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually it is. Ground fighting is an effective form of self defense. This has been demonstrated numerous times in many threads.

Knowing how to defend yourself should you find yourself on the ground is wise, purposely looking to fight on the ground is not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Knowing how to defend yourself should you find yourself on the ground is wise, purposely looking to fight on the ground is not.

That's what I have said.

When a guy tries to pull down a girls' pants, will that girl

1. resist as hard as she can? or
2. not resist at all? or
3. help that guy to pull her pants off? or
4. try to take the guy's pants off instead?

There is a difference between

- try not to,
- don't care one way or another,
- love to.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You seem to be intent on making sport training the best thing for self defense.

I never said that. Where are you pulling this from?

From the general tone of most of your posts on the subject.

 

[Hanzou]

Knowing how to defend yourself should you find yourself on the ground is wise, purposely looking to fight on the ground is not.

Well given your answers to various ground situations, you should certainly take your own advice.

Also there are times where it is wise to take a fight to the ground.

From the general tone of most of your posts on the subject.

Which simply shows that you're not paying attention.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well given your answers to various ground situations, you should certainly take your own advice.

Given your answers on everything else it's no wonder you always end up on the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

Given your answers on everything else it's no wonder you always end up on the ground.

The most ironic thing about this is that if you actually understood grappling, you would end up back on your feet a lot faster on your own terms.

The less you know about grappling, the longer you're going to be where you don't want to be.