Hanzou
Grandmaster
This is a big reason why quite a few people in Bjj pull their stand up from wrestling instead of Judo. Wrestling takedowns are a lot easier on the body (and easier to learn IMO).
Anti-grappling.
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This is a big reason why quite a few people in Bjj pull their stand up from wrestling instead of Judo. Wrestling takedowns are a lot easier on the body (and easier to learn IMO).
Both can be equal bad.
This is the worst.
The art of throwing is as simple as to "smash your opponent's head into his neck".
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
[video=youtube_share;Y3rcOjrjqM4]http://youtu.be/Y3rcOjrjqM4[/video]
This one I found to be interesting....
The actual breaking of the guard with the hip movement and the elbow wasn't bad. Honestly reminds me of how Bj penn breaks guard.
However, when the guy passed the guard and started doing "Aikido" on the guy laying on his back, I just shook my head in disgust. They should have really stopped at the guard break.
My question is why does this stuff exist among TMA praticioners? Does the TMA world simply not understand the purpose of the guard?
This one I found to be interesting....
The actual breaking of the guard with the hip movement and the elbow wasn't bad. Honestly reminds me of how Bj penn breaks guard.
However, when the guy passed the guard and started doing "Aikido" on the guy laying on his back, I just shook my head in disgust. They should have really stopped at the guard break.
My question is why does this stuff exist among TMA praticioners? Does the TMA world simply not understand the purpose of the guard?
OP
OP
Last question first. The guard is not part of TMAs. I have never seen it taught in TMA.
In numerous previous posts you have asked why you don't see people sparring the way they train. Then when an Aikidoka actually uses Aikido techniques in this situation you 'shake your head' in disgust.
Amazing!
:idunno:
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I know it isn't. It's something that Bjj introduced to the MA world, and now everyone is trying to find ways to counter it for some reason. I'm curious as to why that is. We don't spend our time in Bjj trying to stop Aikido throws or WC punches.
I shook my head in disgust because its laughable to believe that you could pull off any of that against someone using guard against you. I was generous with the initial guard break (even that one is somewhat questionable, but its better than the stuff shown in WC anti-grappling stuff), but the stuff shown after the "guard pass" is nothing short of fantasy.
ST1Doppelganger
Brown Belt
At least its something BJJ would like to think they introduced to the MA world. It just wasn't concentrated on because rolling around on the ground in a battlefield isn't the best strategy.
OP
OP
You demonstrated ignorance of Karate, Krav and WC. Why am I surprised you are demonstrating ignorance of Aikido?
It is only fantasy if you can't get them on. The same as any other submission technique in grappling is fantasy if it isn't working. You have difficulty understanding the difference between demonstrating a technique and using a technique.
In reality it is your understanding of other martial arts that is laughable. I had thought that there might have been enough comment about style bashing that you might have stopped. Now you start on Aikido.
OP
OP
Or the street for that matter.
I have a couple of books on Shaolin Chin Na but hadn't seen that one. Is it good?
:asian:
Hong Kong Pooey
Blue Belt
You don't train to stop any punches from hitting you, or do you mean you don't train specifically to stop WC style punches?
ST1Doppelganger
Brown Belt
Or the street for that matter.
I have a couple of books on Shaolin Chin Na but hadn't seen that one. Is it good?
:asian:
I love chin na and would say it has some different locks you don't see in the more common chin na books but its really detailed but still around $20 you can't complain for what it is.
You should be able to pick up any if the locks you like in it with the joint locking background you have.
The initial guard break/pass is missing some of the details necessary to be successful against a killed guard player, but the concept is sound. It's certainly sufficient to deal with an untrained or minimally trained opponent who just instinctively wraps his legs for guard after being taken down.
After the pass, the aikidoka is no longer working against guard. He's in ... I won't call it side mount ... lets say top position on the side against a downed opponent. At this point, his intention is to control and pin his opponent. Classically, this was not done with the opponent's back to the ground as you might see in BJJ/Wrestling/MMA. Instead the objective is to pin the opponent face down where there is less chance of him drawing and using a weapon and his hands can be secured if you are using an arresting technique. I'm not sure whether most Aikidoka normally practice entering into this sort of pin starting with the opponent on a downed position on his back, but I think I may have seen something similar in some related classical jujutsu tradition.
Are these entries as demonstrated workable? Very unlikely against a skilled wrestler/BJJ player/Judoka. An experienced grappler will not feed the energy and arm position that the aikidoka is using to set up the locks. Then again, the same could be said for the standing version of these same moves. No one is likely to feed the standard lunging downward chopping action that many aikido techniques are classically practiced against. In order to apply the techniques in real life, an aikidoka needs a) a lot of skill and b) the understanding of how to adapt the moves to the kind of attacks a real world assailant is likely to use. A sufficiently skilled aikidoka could probably get some variation of those moves against an untrained opponent that he had just taken down.
I'm not sure what the intention of the video was. If the practitioners meant to say, "look at our techniques for beating a killed grappler," then they are out of their league. If they were examining a scenario of "I was throwing my attacker, but I stumbled and went down with him and he instinctively wrapped his legs around me, so here's how I get past that and get back to my original plan of pinning him using aikido until the police show up," then I think they are doing fine.
Many people have debated the street effectiveness of aikido in general, but style-bashing is against MT rules, so I would suggest not getting into that.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Well, i can't see the video, so I can't know which of the following this is. If the technique is ridiculous, such as we've seen in some other videos, I can agree with Hanzou's general comment. Also, is this "sparring" or is it a demonstration on a compliant training dummy a series of techniques performed without resistance? Because if the latter, it has nothing to do with "sparring how you train."
If by BJJ, you mean pre-WWII Judo by way of traditional Japanese Jujutsu, I agree. Otherwise, you're stretching. While working from the guard is something that the Gracies, particularly Helio Gracie as the smaller of the two brothers, worked to improve, just about every technique in BJJ is represented in Judo or in traditional folk or CaCC wrestling. BJJ is like the GE commercials. They didn't invent the guard. They just made the guard better.
REgarding your question, why other styles spend time trying to counter BJJ specifically, my theory is that it has little to do with efficacy and a lot more to do with insecurity and loss of revenue. BJJ is popular and very commercial right now, just as everyone in the 80's wanted to be a ninja and in the 70's everyone wanted to be a shaolin monk. I would be very surprised if Karate schools in the 70s didn't specifically mention countering kung fu. Or in the 80s, if kung fu schools didn't specifically mention counter the ninja techniques. It's business, pure and simple. BJJ is cutting into the revenue and that puts some pressure on WC schools or Aikido schools to address it in some manner... to say, "Look... we know BJJ is out there, but it's not ALL that and a bag of chips. We can do that, too."
I may be completely off base about all of that, but it's the way the entire thing plays out to me. But regardless of the why, I wish it weren't so damned incompetent. That's the part that bothers me.
I can't see the video, so I might be presuming the worst. FWIW, if anyone wants to see some cool stuff, Roy Dean is a BJJ Black Belt and also a black belt in Aikikai Aikido, Kodokan Judo and Seibukan Jujutsu. In my opinion, if you want to learn how Aikido can be incorporated into ground fighting, THIS is the guy to ask... someone who knows both.
This is just a personal insult. Attack the post, not the poster. Do you disagree and believe that the technique shown is viable? Why? What principles are being demonstrated in the video and how do you HONESTLY believe that they would fare against a competent grappler?
This isn't necessarily true. Contrary to popular opinion, there is such a thing as bad art, bad poetry and bad technique. It is very possible that the technique being demonstrated is just fundamentally flawed and unsound. I contend that some of the techniques demonstrated in the WC Anti-Grappling videos was fundamentally flawed and should not be recommended to anyone as viable defense against a competent grappler.
In Golf, you know you hit the ball well when you don't even feel it impact the club. It's effortless. In BJJ, if you're using solid leverage and body mechanics, it doesn't matter how strong or heavy a person is, you can still move him.
Some extremely gifted athletes can use poor technique and get away with it. Anderson Silva drops his arms in the pocket. He can get away with it. That doesn't make it a good idea.
Conversely, we can know from a preponderance of evidence that some technique is sound, even if I cannot execute that technique. For example, a BJJ white belt may not be able to consistently apply the armbar from guard, even when the opportunity presents itself. But we know that the technique works because we have ample evidence that it is so.
Another personal attack.
You completely undermine your credibility regarding the ToS when you knowingly violate it yourself.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Or the street for that matter.
I have a couple of books on Shaolin Chin Na but hadn't seen that one. Is it good?
:asian:
Interesting how you claim I'm style bashing Aikido, when your post above is a bash against Bjj.
As to your question, no its actually pretty terrible.
ST1Doppelganger
Brown Belt
LOL i just realized I left out the not between the its really detailed.
But yes its a very basic not much description on details of lock but I wouldn't go as far as saying its terrible because it is easily found for under $20
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Not concentrated on? It was largely ignored by Asian MA. So while the hold existed in many styles, it was Bjj that showed the versatility and effectiveness of fighting from that position.
As Steve points out, the guard exists in Judo as well, but it saw such little use that it didn't even have a formal name attached to it. Not surprising given Judo's general attitude towards newaza in general.
In short, let's give credit where credit's due.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Okay. So, hmmm... okay. The open is actually kind of okay. Not sure how well executed the technique was, but the idea of controlling the hips, planting the knee in tailbone and pushing back to open guard is solid technique. It's just fine.
The pass is not okay. It's a very poorly executed knee slide pass and the guy will be very, very lucky to not have his back taken faster than he can say, "AIIIIIIKIIIII!"
I found a solid knee slide pass video. It's labeled ninjutsu. But, that's cool. It's solid grappling, whatever they call it.
The video above goes the other direction, but there are a few important details. Unlike the aikido guy, this ninja in a BJJ gi understands that space is the bottom guy's friend and your enemy. You'll never pass unless you control the space. He maintains pressure the entire pass. Second, he controls the bottom guy's leg throughout the pass, to avoid being caught in half guard. Third, he finishes with control.
This video below is actually a drill, but the technique is sound. At about 1:30, you'll see that he gets the underhook. That underhook is what keeps him from having his back taken. Also, as above, he maintains forward pressure and ends with control. The underhook is fundamentally important. Without that underhook, this is not a good technique.
Regarding the rest, it's not all bad. Knee on Face is considered a little crude in BJJ... better left to those... Catch Wrestlers (Patoooey!) (Just kidding!). Seriously, it's considered a little dickish, but it's something I'm familiar with. And it's perfectly legit. Very uncomfortable on the bottom. And the armbar can certainly work from that position. The rest of it is very questionable.
Hope this helps.
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I guess it's the difference between actually having received good practiced technique in Aikido on your own self. Like has been said over and over on this forum, you can't learn or feel this stuff from a video.
I'm almost fanatically sceptical about things, but I have been on the receiving end of good Aikido before and it had me talking to medical friends afterwards who are more versed on human anatomy than I am just to try and understand what took place. I may only be a beginner in MA, but I know when my body responds to a technique in a way I don't want.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Are you saying that what is in the video is good Aikido?
I see a lot of the video displayed here more of a guideline. What I read in the comments was that the idea of using techniques beyond the guard break is not a viable option. So my reading of the post was not if the Aikido in the video was good or not, but to me, it was indicating that for video face value the possibilities were dismissed or judge to not be a viable option.
Then the question was asked of TMA practitioners if this existed. I don't think he is after an answer, but I wanted to point out that it he may deem it useless since he may not have an understanding of what's actually being applied. (the soft side of Aikido) It's just something you need to practice and receive to understand what's going on and can't be seen in video. (in my limited understanding as well, but I have received it before, and it has me questioning a lot of things)
Similar to a lot of the post for BJJ techniques, I have to ask more questions to understand the intent and where things are leading to since I can't always see that from a video and what you guys talk about. I find this post pretty interesting from both perspectives as I see it drawing out a lot of things I've never seen discussed before.
I just throw in my 2c when I think I might ad value, or need some clarity. Most of it goes over my head to be honest.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Do I really need to receive good practiced technique in Aikido to point out that no one is going to lay flat like a dead fish while you're passing guard? Much less leave their arms out on either side with zero resistance.
None of that has anything to do with the Aikidoka's techniques.
I understand that this is a demonstration, but if the goal is to show how to pass guard using Aikido, why would all of the resistance end after the guard is broken?
All that is fine and good, but good technique is only good technique if it is applicable in the real world.
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