Anti-grappling.

[jezr74]

Do I really need to receive good practiced technique in Aikido to point out that no one is going to lay flat like a dead fish while you're passing guard? Much less leave their arms out on either side with zero resistance.

None of that has anything to do with the Aikidoka's techniques.

I understand that this is a demonstration, but if the goal is to show how to pass guard using Aikido, why would all of the resistance end after the guard is broken?



All that is fine and good, but good technique is only good technique if it is applicable in the real world.

Yeah, nothing wrong with your logic, but is applicable to every video in this thread. What if they are able to do it their way, and others another?

What is the alternative from the guard break? What are the next goals and intent?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Do I really need to receive good practiced technique in Aikido to point out that no one is going to lay flat like a dead fish while you're passing guard? Much less leave their arms out on either side with zero resistance.

None of that has anything to do with the Aikidoka's techniques.

I understand that this is a demonstration, but if the goal is to show how to pass guard using Aikido, why would all of the resistance end after the guard is broken?



All that is fine and good, but good technique is only good technique if it is applicable in the real world.

it's a ... stylized approach to practicing/demoing techniques that is common in aikido. They often have a very similar approach to their standing material, so this isn't something that's a result of them stepping outside their normal area of expertise into ground fighting.

Personally I suspect that the aikidoka who are able to make their techniques work in the real world are the ones who don't stop with practicing these stylized setups for the moves and figure out how to apply them with opponents who move more realistically. That's just my theory, though. I'm certainly not an aikido expert.

 

[jezr74]

it's a ... stylized approach to practicing/demoing techniques that is common in aikido. They often have a very similar approach to their standing material, so this isn't something that's a result of them stepping outside their normal area of expertise into ground fighting.

Personally I suspect that the aikidoka who are able to make their techniques work in the real world are the ones who don't stop with practicing these stylized setups for the moves and figure out how to apply them with opponents who move more realistically. That's just my theory, though. I'm certainly not an aikido expert.

Yeah I agree. A lot of what I see in these videos and in books are blueprints of possibilities to me. Some I may able to do, others I won't. But the guy or girl next to me might.

 

[Steve]

Okay. I'll ask again. Does anyone think that the guard pass technique as shown will work for anyone? Kman? Is that "good" aikido?

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[Hanzou]

Yeah, nothing wrong with your logic, but is applicable to every video in this thread. What if they are able to do it their way, and others another?

How would an attempted guard pass cause my entire body to become paralyzed, and unable to respond? There is no logical way they can do it "their" way.

What is the alternative from the guard break? What are the next goals and intent?

The goal is to gain a better position than being in your opponent's guard which is considered an inferior position.

Steve posted an example of an alternative.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Okay. I'll ask again. Does anyone think that the guard pass technique as shown will work for anyone? Kman? Is that "good" aikido?

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Which part are you asking about?

The guard break is fine, perhaps not expert level, but fine for a demo.

The pass once the guard is opened will fail against an experienced BJJ player, but could work against a newbie or an untrained person.

The control and entries into the arm locks are stylized and would look rather different in actual application against someone reacting more realistically. They also would require that the aikidoka be significantly more skilled than his opponent and so would be very unlikely to succeed against an experienced grappler, even in their non-stylized form.

The finishes once the initial entry into the armlock is attained are fine, though obviously they are working from an aikido framework rather than a BJJ approach. (If any aikidoka are reading this thread, they can give feedback as to the quality of the aikido. I'm not familiar enough with the art to nitpick the details.) If you let a skilled aikidoka get you that far, he has a decent chance of finishing the move.

 

[jezr74]

How would an attempted guard pass cause my entire body to become paralyzed, and unable to respond? There is no logical way they can do it "their" way.



The goal is to gain a better position than being in your opponent's guard which is considered an inferior position.

Steve posted an example of an alternative.

Ok, so if I keep to a BJJ principle of closing the air gap, I should keep that in mind when seeing a grapple technique shown and your commentary as well?

I do like the vids, but, in my limited understanding, I thought there was ample opportunity to strike the guy in the mount(?) position? Or maybe take an opposing control of the head under the chin\jaw. With the intent of shutting his next positioning by having them try to protect the head neck, after apply some level of trauma in that area.

While I understand it's are non-resistant application of technique for learning\demo purposes. I could see all these techs after the guard break as a possible opportunity. But I'd have to say the one Steve posted would be a higher possible opportunity, but do you think the others are not possible?

 

[jezr74]

How would an attempted guard pass cause my entire body to become paralyzed, and unable to respond? There is no logical way they can do it "their" way.

Yep, that's what I mean is the part you would need to experience first hand.

 

[drop bear]

The initial guard break/pass is missing some of the details necessary to be successful against a killed guard player, but the concept is sound. It's certainly sufficient to deal with an untrained or minimally trained opponent who just instinctively wraps his legs for guard after being taken down.

After the pass, the aikidoka is no longer working against guard. He's in ... I won't call it side mount ... lets say top position on the side against a downed opponent. At this point, his intention is to control and pin his opponent. Classically, this was not done with the opponent's back to the ground as you might see in BJJ/Wrestling/MMA. Instead the objective is to pin the opponent face down where there is less chance of him drawing and using a weapon and his hands can be secured if you are using an arresting technique. I'm not sure whether most Aikidoka normally practice entering into this sort of pin starting with the opponent on a downed position on his back, but I think I may have seen something similar in some related classical jujutsu tradition.

Are these entries as demonstrated workable? Very unlikely against a skilled wrestler/BJJ player/Judoka. An experienced grappler will not feed the energy and arm position that the aikidoka is using to set up the locks. Then again, the same could be said for the standing version of these same moves. No one is likely to feed the standard lunging downward chopping action that many aikido techniques are classically practiced against. In order to apply the techniques in real life, an aikidoka needs a) a lot of skill and b) the understanding of how to adapt the moves to the kind of attacks a real world assailant is likely to use. A sufficiently skilled aikidoka could probably get some variation of those moves against an untrained opponent that he had just taken down.

I'm not sure what the intention of the video was. If the practitioners meant to say, "look at our techniques for beating a killed grappler," then they are out of their league. If they were examining a scenario of "I was throwing my attacker, but I stumbled and went down with him and he instinctively wrapped his legs around me, so here's how I get past that and get back to my original plan of pinning him using aikido until the police show up," then I think they are doing fine.

Many people have debated the street effectiveness of aikido in general, but style-bashing is against MT rules, so I would suggest not getting into that.

By the way kimora or the hammerlock craps all over the straight arm bar for turning people on their tummies.

Re the vids you might be able to get that wristlock if you were knee riding them.

Random knee ride video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtoAryepDs

 

[drop bear]

it's a ... stylized approach to practicing/demoing techniques that is common in aikido. They often have a very similar approach to their standing material, so this isn't something that's a result of them stepping outside their normal area of expertise into ground fighting.

Personally I suspect that the aikidoka who are able to make their techniques work in the real world are the ones who don't stop with practicing these stylized setups for the moves and figure out how to apply them with opponents who move more realistically. That's just my theory, though. I'm certainly not an aikido expert.

And cue the resisted video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Rg-8Z3h88

There is a real technique difference between the drilled version and the resisted version. It messed with me for ages. I would get often get some big spazzy noob straight out of a farm who would clamp me and I could rarely apply anything. Even drills could sometimes fail.

Nowadays I do the resisted version all the time and it works better.

Someone has it written in their SIG form follows function.

 

[RTKDCMB]

We don't spend our time in Bjj trying to stop Aikido throws or WC punches.

Then your training has holes in it.

 

[Hanzou]

it's a ... stylized approach to practicing/demoing techniques that is common in aikido. They often have a very similar approach to their standing material, so this isn't something that's a result of them stepping outside their normal area of expertise into ground fighting.

Personally I suspect that the aikidoka who are able to make their techniques work in the real world are the ones who don't stop with practicing these stylized setups for the moves and figure out how to apply them with opponents who move more realistically. That's just my theory, though. I'm certainly not an aikido expert.

Stylized in what fashion? The 2 guard breaks and the pass weren't stylized.

I don't see how you could get those techniques to work when the techniques are based on a highly unrealistic response (i.e. both arms stretched outwards to either side). I have yet to see anyone lay like that while in guard, much less not use the lower half of their body to respond to a guard pass attempt.

 

[Tez3]

And cue the resisted video.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Rg-8Z3h88

There is a real technique difference between the drilled version and the resisted version. It messed with me for ages. I would get often get some big spazzy noob straight out of a farm who would clamp me and I could rarely apply anything. Even drills could sometimes fail.

Nowadays I do the resisted version all the time and it works better.

Someone has it written in their SIG form follows function.

Just a quick note, you've used the word 'spazzy' before but I'm thinking you don't know that it's an offensive word in many places, so that your sentence reads completely differently to how you meant it. Spaz and spazzy are derogatory terms for the disabled. :uhoh:

 

[drop bear]

Just a quick note, you've used the word 'spazzy' before but I'm thinking you don't know that it's an offensive word in many places, so that your sentence reads completely differently to how you meant it. Spaz and spazzy are derogatory terms for the disabled. :uhoh:

I promise I won't aim the term at the disabled.

 

[Tez3]

I promise I won't aim the term at the disabled.

I wouldn't aim that word at anyone, it's the word itself, it's like the N word.

 

[Hanzou]

While I understand it's are non-resistant application of technique for learning\demo purposes. I could see all these techs after the guard break as a possible opportunity. But I'd have to say the one Steve posted would be a higher possible opportunity, but do you think the others are not possible?

No. Only because the people using the closed guard wouldn't be in that laying position, nor would they allow that guard pass to be successful.

I'm really trying to imagine a scenario where a completely unskilled person would pull guard on someone to the point where you would need to pass it, and I really cannot come up with a single scenario. So the only scenario I can imagine is an Aikidoka trying to show his Bjj buddy that he can pass his guard. You're not going to pass a Bjj guard with that. Even a no-stripe white belt can stop that guard pass. A blue belt and above will put you to sleep.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

[video=youtube_share;Y3rcOjrjqM4]http://youtu.be/Y3rcOjrjqM4[/video]

This one I found to be interesting....

The actual breaking of the guard with the hip movement and the elbow wasn't bad. Honestly reminds me of how Bj penn breaks guard.

However, when the guy passed the guard and started doing "Aikido" on the guy laying on his back, I just shook my head in disgust. They should have really stopped at the guard break.

My question is why does this stuff exist among TMA praticioners? Does the TMA world simply not understand the purpose of the guard?

Ok so i just got done watching the video and would say that yes the guard pass is doable and I was taught similar passes in shoot fighting and BJJ.

About your comment on why does this stuff exist amongst TMA I would have to say that the TMA people are trying to evolve their art to work in grappling scenarios since its one of the more common trained styles now.

So a WC practitioner is naturally going to use WC strikes to try to answer the BJJ Guard and an Aikido Practitioner is going to naturally try to adapt his aikido locks in to something he can do while on the ground.

I will say that I do see why your having an issue wondering why these TMA practitioners are designing most of their ground concepts around defending against the guard when in reality they should be learning the guard for themselves and then coming up with concepts of how to modify their techniques to be applicable while in the bottom guard and against the other dominant grappling positions.

Personally I have done the opposite of what these TMA practitioners have done and have modified my Kung Fu and other arts techniques to be more of ways to set up reversals and submissions while in the guard and other dominant and non dominant positions.

I will also say Im intrigued about the sankyo on the ground lock and might just have to play around with that since it's become one of my favorite new locks after recently starting training in Aikido but then again im very open minded with martial arts.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Interesting how you claim I'm style bashing Aikido, when your post above is a bash against Bjj.

As to your question, no its actually pretty terrible.

Actually it is not, it is an statement on something that is not wise to do in the street followed by a question about a book.

 

[drop bear]

Ok so i just got done watching the video and would say that yes the guard pass is doable and I was taught similar passes in shoot fighting and BJJ.

About your comment on why does this stuff exist amongst TMA I would have to say that the TMA people are trying to evolve their art to work in grappling scenarios since its one of the more common trained styles now.

So a WC practitioner is naturally going to use WC strikes to try to answer the BJJ Guard and an Aikido Practitioner is going to naturally try to adapt his aikido locks in to something he can do while on the ground.

I will say that I do see why your having an issue wondering why these TMA practitioners are designing most of their ground concepts around defending against the guard when in reality they should be learning the guard for themselves and then coming up with concepts of how to modify their techniques to be applicable while in the bottom guard and against the other dominant grappling positions.

Personally I have done the opposite of what these TMA practitioners have done and have modified my Kung Fu and other arts techniques to be more of ways to set up reversals and submissions while in the guard and other dominant and non dominant positions.

I will also say Im intrigued about the sankyo on the ground lock and might just have to play around with that since it's become one of my favorite new locks after recently starting training in Aikido but then again im very open minded with martial arts.

Seriously if you are trying for those locks you are going to have to be knee riding him. It is the only way to make that space.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

it's a ... stylized approach to practicing/demoing techniques that is common in aikido. They often have a very similar approach to their standing material, so this isn't something that's a result of them stepping outside their normal area of expertise into ground fighting.

Personally I suspect that the aikidoka who are able to make their techniques work in the real world are the ones who don't stop with practicing these stylized setups for the moves and figure out how to apply them with opponents who move more realistically. That's just my theory, though. I'm certainly not an aikido expert.

You probably hit this on the nail head.

Personally im an Aikido rookie and I went in to my first aikido lesson (about 4 months ago) expecting me not to like it since way too many Aikido schools have fallen in to the same category as allot of the tai chi schools that have turned a martial art in to more of a health exercise while leaving the martial aspect on the side burner. I was actually shocked when the instructor taught me a lock i didn't know about Sankyo and everything he did to me actually worked even against me trying to resist it.

Then again I can't say are the norm in aikido dojos since there's several of us that are ex instructors in different styles ranging from traditional Ju Jitsu, Kung Fu and Judo as well as allot if us having a prior background in BJJ and other grappling arts.