Anti-grappling.

[Buka]

As to the idea of sport training or self defense training in a grappling art - I think when a practitioner has enough time in (and I do not know how much time that should be), but let's say five years of serious training, I feel a practitioner can differentiate between either, and apply what they know to any circumstance they are in. Maybe it's more time than that, but there comes a time when you would have to be a complete idiot not to be able use what you have in a different situations.

Think back on your last five years of training. Did you only think about training while you were in the dojo? Hell, we even think about in in our sleep.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Just to be clear, you are advocating that the person on the bottom of side control defend by punching to the temple and neck (using the specialized fist formations you mentioned)?

As a start since the arm is free.

Yeah, Hanzou is right on this one, bad idea. I'll make the same offer I did regarding punching the groin from bottom of mount. If anyone wants to stop by 4 Seasons MMA in Lexington, KY and start under my side mount, you are welcome to punch me as hard as you like, wherever you like, with whatever fist formation you like from that position and see where it get you.

(RTKDCMB - I realize that's an impractically long trip for you to make. Maybe you can find someone in your neck of the woods who will let you give it a try.)

The groin is not normally accessible from that position,the neck and temple strike has a much more immediate effect. A better idea would be to make the hand position and tap yourself in the neck with it and see how much force you can put into it before it becomes too much, it does not take much force to hurt more than a punch. We have all seen the video of the pimp getting KO'd with a forearm/knife hand strike, which wasn't all that powerful. I estimate that a bear hand or middle knuckle strike would have the same effect with about a 10th of the power.

Before you ask - yes, I have been hit in the temple and the neck before. Remember that I have plenty of full-contact sparring experience.

Have you been hit in the temple with a middle knuckle or in the neck with the bear hand, because they are not normally done in full contact sparring.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The groin is not normally accessible from that position,the neck and temple strike has a much more immediate effect. A better idea would be to make the hand position and tap yourself in the neck with it and see how much force you can put into it before it becomes too much, it does not take much force to hurt more than a punch.

Just tried it. It's annoying, but it's not going to get you out of my side control.

We have all seen the video of the pimp getting KO'd with a forearm/knife hand strike, which wasn't all that powerful. I estimate that a bear hand or middle knuckle strike would have the same effect with about a 10th of the power.

a) I think your 10-1 ratio is significantly off.
b) Regardless, if I have a good side control position, you aren't getting even close to 1/10th of that power in your punches to me anyway.

Have you been hit in the temple with a middle knuckle or in the neck with the bear hand, because they are not normally done in full contact sparring.

Yeah, but not in full-contact sparring since we usually use boxing gloves for that. Generally it's either accidental impact in what is supposed to be light-contact sparring or else someone demoing a technique too vigorously.

Look, you don't have to take my word for it. I'm just some guy on another continent that you've never met. For all you know I could be making up all my claimed experience and credentials. I would suggest that you find a local MMA or BJJ gym and see if you can find someone who will let you test out your theory. Report back and let us know how it goes.

Just to let you know how your idea looks from my end ... you're primarily a striker, yes? Suppose I were to tell you that my go-to defense against your fastest jab would be to catch your punch in midair and send you flying with a wristlock. You would (rightfully) judge that I had no idea of how a jab works if I thought this was a workable approach. That's sort of the equivalent of what you're suggesting.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

When you are grappling and you are underneath and your opponent has a superior position like side control/crossbody, side mount, mount, back, etc. you need to concentrate on improving your position. Tony, Hanzou, are right in that striking from and inferior position like side mount is just not effective. Could it work? Maybe but it is a long, long, long shot if you are up against somebody that knows what they are doing. Your best bet is to focus on getting better position which will allow you to then strike, submit, sweep, etc. When grappling I am not worried about strikes from an inferior position. They are just so ineffective. The only strike that might have an effect is if my eyes get hit and that is a long shot. Other than that good luck with a strike from an inferior position. If someone strikes while underneath me and I am mounted, have their back, in crossobody/side control, side mount, etc. then all they are doing is giving me a great opportunity to utilize their limb against them.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't say don't strike because it has a distraction factor, you need a viable escape technique in mind though, don't expect to get out by striking but it has it's uses. Also when thinking about striking, (for when it is useful!) think about more than just punches. Think knees, hammer fists, elbows too etc.

 

[Hanzou]

If you're a grappler yes. But isn't the point of anti-grappling for non grapplers to use different tactics?

If that is the goal, then better tactics need to be created.

A non grappler is never going to out grapple a grappler, so rather than using grappling techniques they need something else. Even if you do grapple to supplement your other skills you are never going to be as good as someone who only grapples (in the same way that they will never match a boxer for stand up striking).

Which is why you need to find a way to work around the grappler's superiority on the ground. Grapplers work around the striker's superiority by closing the distance with clinching, or taking the legs. I gave up looking for that work around, and simply became a grappler myself. However, I understand that not everyone wants to roll around on the ground choking people. It's an acquired taste.

I don't know what a striker would do once they're on their back, but I do know that learning a few simple grappling escapes, and rolling with an advanced grappler couldn't hurt.

 

[Buka]

However, I understand that not everyone wants to roll around on the ground choking people. It's an acquired taste.

What a great line! Indeed it is.

 

[Tez3]

What a great line! Indeed it is.

Rolling around choking people is even better with handcuffs roflmao.

 

[drop bear]

Please post a video to prove your claim.

It is really not that wild a claim. And by the way there is no reason you couldn't bear knuckle people in the temple in mma. It is not illegal.

 

[drop bear]

As to the idea of sport training or self defense training in a grappling art - I think when a practitioner has enough time in (and I do not know how much time that should be), but let's say five years of serious training, I feel a practitioner can differentiate between either, and apply what they know to any circumstance they are in. Maybe it's more time than that, but there comes a time when you would have to be a complete idiot not to be able use what you have in a different situations.

Think back on your last five years of training. Did you only think about training while you were in the dojo? Hell, we even think about in in our sleep.

Again this seems to be evidenced when a person can spar multi systems. Which I find people don't have that much trouble doing.

 

[drop bear]

As a start since the arm is free.





The groin is not normally accessible from that position,the neck and temple strike has a much more immediate effect. A better idea would be to make the hand position and tap yourself in the neck with it and see how much force you can put into it before it becomes too much, it does not take much force to hurt more than a punch. We have all seen the video of the pimp getting KO'd with a forearm/knife hand strike, which wasn't all that powerful. I estimate that a bear hand or middle knuckle strike would have the same effect with about a 10th of the power.




Have you been hit in the temple with a middle knuckle or in the neck with the bear hand, because they are not normally done in full contact sparring.

I assume the guy on top can get pissed off and rain elbows in this little experiment? Which would be my best guess at the response to temple knuckle attacks.

I do have a mate of mine who does punch from the bottom. 06:42.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lJfPpySRTrQ

And even he said it wouldn't work.

 

[drop bear]

Why is a bear grip around someone's throat/neck is the worst thing you can do? I am sure there are worse things. I have studied throat/neck grabs, applied them and had them applied to me, they would appear to be most effective.

Actually a grip around the neck might not be the worst idea. We forearm in throat anyway from there as part of side mount escape. If you could get your hand in there.

What I call either a c choke or the craw is really effective.

 

[drop bear]

If that is the goal, then better tactics need to be created.



Which is why you need to find a way to work around the grappler's superiority on the ground. Grapplers work around the striker's superiority by closing the distance with clinching, or taking the legs. I gave up looking for that work around, and simply became a grappler myself. However, I understand that not everyone wants to roll around on the ground choking people. It's an acquired taste.

I don't know what a striker would do once they're on their back, but I do know that learning a few simple grappling escapes, and rolling with an advanced grappler couldn't hurt.

Remember where I said my issue of anti grappling is this idea you can take a short cut?

And you really can't. For the most part.

 

[K-man]

Rolling around choking people is even better with handcuffs roflmao.

Ah yes. I have this mate in the UK, Paul D. I was meaning to talk to you about catching up to give him a good spanking, but the handcuffs could add whole new dimension.

 

[geezer]

...I understand that not everyone wants to roll around on the ground choking people. It's an acquired taste.

I don't know what a striker would do once they're on their back, but I do know that learning a few simple grappling escapes, and rolling with an advanced grappler couldn't hurt.

At last we agree!!! Hanzou this is all I was ever getting. Don't like the name and associations conjured up by the term "anti-grappling" then let's call it something else. How about "RGSS" or Rudimentary Grappling Skills for Strikers?

I don't care what you call it, just so its functional and helps my WC students. In fact I've been seriously considering joining a local BJJ club. It would be really fun to do with my son. But at my age and with with my joint issues that may be a dumb idea.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

At last we agree!!! Hanzou this is all I was ever getting. Don't like the name and associations conjured up by the term "anti-grappling" then let's call it something else. How about "RGS" or Rudimentary Grappling Skills for Strikers?

I don't care what you call it, just so its functional and helps my WC students. In fact I've been seriously considering joining a local BJJ club. It would be really fun to do with my son. But at my age and with with my joint issues that may be a dumb idea.

"RGS " sounds good. Gets to the point. Also negates Kung Fu Wang's complaint that it doesn't make sense for "anti-grappling" to be a subset of "grappling."

How old are you and how bad are your joint issues? I'm 50 years old with some mild arthritis, a bad wrist, and some lumbar vertebral deterioration. I'm still enjoying BJJ. We have a white belt who's a little older than me. (Dan Inosanto was almost 70 when he got his black belt in BJJ, but I recognize that not many of us are going to be keeping up with Guro Dan.)

 

[drop bear]

At last we agree!!! Hanzou this is all I was ever getting. Don't like the name and associations conjured up by the term "anti-grappling" then let's call it something else. How about "RGSS" or Rudimentary Grappling Skills for Strikers?

I don't care what you call it, just so its functional and helps my WC students. In fact I've been seriously considering joining a local BJJ club. It would be really fun to do with my son. But at my age and with with my joint issues that may be a dumb idea.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5wVlZX6Bw9E

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I understand that not everyone wants to roll around on the ground choking people.

Not everyone want to be

- punched on the head,
- kicked on the belly,
- thrown on the ground,

with full force either.

Compare to the general MA training, the ground game training is still the easiest one, that's why it's popular today. IMO, the "throwing skill training" is much harder on your old age body compare to the "ground game training".

 

[Tony Dismukes]

IMO, the "throwing skill training" is much harder on your old age body compare to the "ground game training".

Yep. That's why many senior judoka start specializing in newaza.

 

[geezer]

Tony, Drop Bear, et. al. --I posted regarding my interest in BJJ vs. health concerns on an old thread in the grappling forum. Perhaps you could check what I posted and give me some general advice.