Anti-grappling.

[Hanzou]

Are you seriously suggesting there is do defence against side control?

I'm saying that I have yet to see side control counters displayed in those "anti-grappling" videos.

So what you are saying is that a relatively inexperience grappler won't close a guard on you? At what stage do you teach guard to BJJ/MMA newbies?

They'll only close guard on you if you're gaining a dominant position. It takes a great deal of skill to utilize an effective guard against an aggressive opponent. Again, the guard isn't an attacking position (unless you're at a tournament), its a defensive position. A Bjj stylist isn't going to grab you and jump into their guard. They're going to grab you and put you in side control and ideally the mount.

Example; Ryan Hall is a sports bjj guy who is all about the guard (I think he even created a guard variation). When he had a confrontation at a restaurant, he didn't use the guard a single time. He mounted the guy and controlled him. When the confrontation escalated again, Ryan took his back and choked him out;

 

[Hanzou]

Could you explain why it's nonsense?

Other than the fact that they believe that you'll need to know how to counter the guard in a self-defense situation?

Here's a vid showing how much control you can have in guard;

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Could you explain why it's nonsense? I dont know enough about grappling to understand why punches to the face wouldn't work, am interested to learn why.

Punches to the face (or elsewhere) are a perfectly valid tool to use while in the guard. The problem is that someone who knows how to use the guard effectively will be working to break your posture, break your balance, control distance, control angles, tie you up, and set you up for sweeps and submissions. In order to land effective punches against a skilled grappler without getting swept or submitted, you have to counter all that - maintain correct posture, balance, distance, and angling. If you can do all that, you can beat up the bottom person at will. It's not easy and takes a lot of practice.

In the clip Hanzou was complaining about, neither person showed any awareness of these factors or made any attempt to control them. In that situation the top person can land punches pretty easily. Of course, there's not much point in putting out a video demonstration of how to beat up someone who has no idea of how to defend himself.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

That was entertaining you have to love liquid courage.

 

[Tez3]

That was entertaining you have to love liquid courage.

I'm so glad I'm retired now and don't have to deal with idiots like that anymore!

 

[K-man]

Other than the fact that they believe that you'll need to know how to counter the guard in a self-defense situation?

One of the things I teach, and you'll probably pull it to bits, is when you are on the ground and have the opportunity to do a single leg takedown against a standing opponent you almost always end up in the guard position. Apart from the obligatory groin strike , I would teach you to swing one of his legs over so he is on his side which gives the opportunity for a head shot, a knee to the ribs or side control if you want to restrain him.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One of the things I teach, and you'll probably pull it to bits, is when you are on the ground and have the opportunity to do a single leg takedown against a standing opponent you almost always end up in the guard position. Apart from the obligatory groin strike , I would teach you to swing one of his legs over so he is on his side which gives the opportunity for a head shot, a knee to the ribs or side control if you want to restrain him.

Can you give me a description or point me to video showing the variation of the single leg that you are using? I don't find that the variations I do normally put me in the guard - especially not the closed guard.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. You forgot to mention that that Hanzou's system has the coolest logo. Haha.

...but actually, they kinda do.

Now there is a thread.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I always assume my opponent is better than I until proven otherwise, it would be stupid not to. I don't talk anti-grappling at all, I consider it as 'defences against.........' Luckily for me I have both striking and grappling skills so not so fussed about what my opponent wants to do.

That's the right attitude. To be good on both is the best approach IMO.

The day that I realize that I just can't knock my opponent down every day, the day that I lose interest in striking art. When I try to take my opponent down, I can give 100% that I can and I don't have to control anything. This is the advantage of the grappling art. You don't have to hurt your opponent to test your skill. You just can't do that in the striking art.

 

[K-man]

Can you give me a description or point me to video showing the variation of the single leg that you are using? I don't find that the variations I do normally put me in the guard - especially not the closed guard.

Damn! I can't find it on YouTube therefore it doesn't exist.

This is certainly not a closed guard but I posted in response to Hansou's assertion that you don't need to pass the guard or counter the guard in an SD situation.

OK. Scenario. I am on my knees, my attacker launches a kick with his right leg. Leaning into it I block his kick on my right forearm, trap his ankle with my left hand and press down. Rocking forward pressing outwards with my upper right forearm, just inside and below the knee, the attacker falls to his right. Depending where he falls you are normally following in between his legs as he falls back although you sometimes end up to the side.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Ok makes sense, thanks. Bad video aside, I assume by not having your back flat on the floor you are pushing your hips up and arching your back to make the gap between them and your face too far for them to reach?

No you go the other and pull them in so they have no room to punch. If you are in guard you generally want to be off to the side as it makes it easier to do escapes sweeps or submissions. You can slip punches by moving side to side.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RmHveOzyEtc

Being on your back in guard is generally seen as the worse position to be in in mma. Mostly because the other guy can punch. Some people do it because there skill set there is so good. But it is the exception not the rule.

In bjj you can jump guard and gain advantage from it. In mma you really can,t.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's also pretty insulting towards the grappling arts in general.

I've spent a long time learning and developing my guard. Anti-grappling comes along and says that the only thing you need to defeat the guard is to punch the other guy in the face.

Its nonsense.

A good friend of mine challenged a guy who claimed to have good "anti-grappling" skill. My friend told his opponent that he would attack his opponent 3 times. If in any of his 3 attacks, his opponent could stand on his feet for more than 3 seconds, his opponent wins that challenge. In all 3 attacks, his opponent was down within 3 seconds.

It further prove that anti-grappling may work against the average Joe, but it won't work against the best grappler in reality.

 

[drop bear]

Damn! I can't find it on YouTube therefore it doesn't exist.

This is certainly not a closed guard but I posted in response to Hansou's assertion that you don't need to pass the guard or counter the guard in an SD situation.

OK. Scenario. I am on my knees, my attacker launches a kick with his right leg. Leaning into it I block his kick on my right forearm, trap his ankle with my left hand and press down. Rocking forward pressing outwards with my upper right forearm, just inside and below the knee, the attacker falls to his right. Depending where he falls you are normally following in between his legs as he falls back although you sometimes end up to the side.
:asian:

You are choosing to be in guard there. Keep hold of his leg and pass to that side and you should scoot in to side control.

Basically you would smush his leg into the ground with your shoulder and then use that as a pivot to get your body around.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there's not much point in putting out a video demonstration of how to beat up someone who has no idea of how to defend himself.

After you have taken your opponent down, you attack him right at that moment, it's very difficult for him to do anything. There will be no "anti-grappling" that can save you from this.

 

[Hanzou]

Damn! I can't find it on YouTube therefore it doesn't exist.

This is certainly not a closed guard but I posted in response to Hansou's assertion that you don't need to pass the guard or counter the guard in an SD situation.

OK. Scenario. I am on my knees, my attacker launches a kick with his right leg. Leaning into it I block his kick on my right forearm, trap his ankle with my left hand and press down. Rocking forward pressing outwards with my upper right forearm, just inside and below the knee, the attacker falls to his right. Depending where he falls you are normally following in between his legs as he falls back although you sometimes end up to the side.
:asian:

I wouldn't consider that landing to be a guard, much less a guard that you need to worry about passing.

 

[K-man]

After you have taken your opponent down, you attack him right at that moment, it's very difficult for him to do anything. There will be no "anti-grappling" that can save you from this.

Yes, but how do you know it will work? Has he ever used that in a real fight situation?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Damn! I can't find it on YouTube therefore it doesn't exist.

This is certainly not a closed guard but I posted in response to Hansou's assertion that you don't need to pass the guard or counter the guard in an SD situation.

OK. Scenario. I am on my knees, my attacker launches a kick with his right leg. Leaning into it I block his kick on my right forearm, trap his ankle with my left hand and press down. Rocking forward pressing outwards with my upper right forearm, just inside and below the knee, the attacker falls to his right. Depending where he falls you are normally following in between his legs as he falls back although you sometimes end up to the side.
:asian:

Gotcha.

So in this situation, the attacker is down and has no control over you and does not have his legs around you. Why would you choose to stay down and enter his guard? Get up, soccer kick his groin if you have a clear shot, and disengage! You've said yourself that you don't want to be rolling around on the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, but how do you know it will work? Has he ever used that in a real fight situation?

This is why you (general YOU) need to include this as part of your training. When you throw your opponent down,

- where his body will land,
- which direction his head will face to,
- how far is between his head and your feet,
- ...

should all be part of your training. Nothing will work without training time involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

to do a single leg takedown against a standing opponent you almost always end up in the guard position.

The "single leg" doesn't have to end up in the guard position. There are more than 20 different ways to execute your "single leg". The following are the most common 3 used in the Chinese wrestling. In all 3 cases, you don't have to go down with your opponent at all.

1. 扣 (Kou) - grab your opponent's leg from outside and throw him backward:

2. 掏 (Tao) - grab your opponent's leg from inside and throw him backward:

3. 错 (Cuo) - push your opponent's leg sideway, push his head sideway, and throw him sideway:

You can even take off and run like hell after you have taken your opponent down by your "single leg". That's the beauty of the "single leg". You can still maintain your "mobility" afterward.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

After you have taken your opponent down, you attack him right at that moment, it's very difficult for him to do anything. There will be no "anti-grappling" that can save you from this.

Now your just cheating with your Shuai jiao Wang. You know most sport martial artist arent going to realize what hit them when they are thrown and then have to try to break fall in the awkward angles. LOL