Anti-grappling.

[jks9199]

Issues with other sites should remain there; each site has its own rules and policies. Here at Martial Talk, we try to encourage positive and friendly discussion, while discouraging outright bashing and attacks on different styles. It seems to me that we're drifting towards incivility, and it would be greatly appreciated if everyone could strive to come back towards civil approaches.

Folks, we all train in our styles because we like the various aspects of them. Trying to prove one is superior to another is like trying to pin Jello to a board. Each style has strengths and weaknesses, and we can debate those endlessly. If you pit one style's strengths against another style's weaknesses... well, duh. The one is going to look great while the other looks bad. Flip things around, and the results will likely be reversed, no? Rather than seeking to show the worst of another style, maybe your argument could be better made by showing the strengths of whatever style... I'm getting enough "X is bad" crap in political ads right now.

Keep the discussion polite and respectful, both of each other, and of the various styles.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[Steve]

X is bad. But XXX is downright naughty.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.


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[K-man]

X is bad. But XXX is downright naughty.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Yes, but which is more fun?

 

[Hanzou]

This is why I prefer "general" discussion than "style" discussion. It's much easier to discuss "general striking art" vs. "general grappling art". When people said, "The striking skill in you grappling art system sucks", I would say, "I agree with you 100% there".

The term "anti-grappling" just likes the term "anti-Christ" or "anti-communist", it's a very unfriendly term. It almost declares as if all grapplers are your enemies. That's not very nice.

It's also pretty insulting towards the grappling arts in general.

I've spent a long time learning and developing my guard. Anti-grappling comes along and says that the only thing you need to defeat the guard is to punch the other guy in the face.

Its nonsense.

 

[K-man]

Somehow I think you and I have very different definitions of "grappling".
In this thread its only been the Wing Chun/Tsun anti grappling vids and quotes from them that have been criticized.

I prefer the dictionary definition of grappling. "1. the act of gripping or seizing, as in wrestling".
All the training I do revolves around entering, controlling and disabling my attacker. Gripping and seizing is exactly what we do. In the act of grappling it is my objective to put my opponent on the ground without necessarily following him down. That requires you to develop a strong centre. Within the context of the thread that alone is anti-grappling.

Now in this thread you have been constantly criticising WC but the OP was just using WC as an example. Anti-grappling is part of most martial arts as most martial artists, especially RB ones do not want to fight on the ground.

 

[K-man]

It's also pretty insulting towards the grappling arts in general.

I've spent a long time learning and developing my guard. Anti-grappling comes along and says that the only thing you need to defeat the guard is to punch the other guy in the face.

Its nonsense.

No, it is nonsense in your opinion. I'll guarantee if you have a relatively inexperienced grappler on the ground and you hit him in the face he will release. Whether that is the best way or not is a different debate.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

It's also pretty insulting towards the grappling arts in general.

I've spent a long time learning and developing my guard. Anti-grappling comes along and says that the only thing you need to defeat the guard is to punch the other guy in the face.

Its nonsense.

I actually have to agree with you on this Hanzou even though I don't see eye to eye on allot of your statements.

Yes that video is pretty much a joke but still might help a person against a street fighter that has watched too many cage fights and pulls them in to the guard.


But no way is that going to save you against an experienced grappler.

 

[Paul_D]

Anti-grappling comes along and says that the only thing you need to defeat the guard is to punch the other guy in the face.

Its nonsense.

Could you explain why it's nonsense? I dont know enough about grappling to understand why punches to the face wouldn't work, am interested to learn why.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Could you explain why it's nonsense? I dont know enough about grappling to understand why punches to the face wouldn't work, am interested to learn why.

Ill chime in and say if just punching somebody in the face while they pull you in to guard worked people wouldn't use BJJ in MMA.

Its simple when you go to punch while in top guard your off balancing yourself and an experienced grappler isn't keeping his back glued to the ground like in that video they will be using their legs/hips and arms to off balance you to gain a submission or sweep.

 

[Paul_D]

Ill chime in and say if just punching somebody in the face while they pull you in to guard worked people wouldn't use BJJ in MMA.

Its simple when you go to punch while in top guard your off balancing yourself and an experienced grappler isn't keeping his back glued to the ground like in that video they will be using their legs/hips and arms to off balance you to gain a submission or sweep.

Ok makes sense, thanks. Bad video aside, I assume by not having your back flat on the floor you are pushing your hips up and arching your back to make the gap between them and your face too far for them to reach?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Its simple when you go to punch while in top guard your off balancing yourself and an experienced grappler isn't keeping his back glued to the ground like in that video they will be using their legs/hips and arms to off balance you to gain a submission or sweep.

Agree!

I just tested this on my wife (she has good ground skill) on the floor 10 seconds ago. If she (on top of me) uses her

- left hand to pin both of my arms, I can use my right leg to press on her left elbow joint. I can then move my right leg over her left shoulder, and press on her neck.
- right hand to pin both of my arms, I can use my left leg to press on her right elbow joint. I can then move my left leg over her right shoulder, and press on her neck.

I'm sure others may have better solution than mine.

 

[Tez3]

You could stack them up. Always good to hear them try to breathe. :supcool:

 

[Steve]

Could you explain why it's nonsense? I dont know enough about grappling to understand why punches to the face wouldn't work, am interested to learn why.

I think defending the sweep to get to the punch is the problem.

But here's a tip. If the grappler opens his guard, that's a bad sign. While that can mean an opportunity to pass for you, it also means he at least thinks he's competent to sweep or submit.

There are no sweeps I am aware of that can be executed from closed guard and only a few submissions (like the Ezekiel).

Point is a grappler clinging desperately to closed guard is either very worried or very inexperienced.


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[ST1Doppelganger]

Agree!

I just tested this on my wife (she has good ground skill) on the floor 10 seconds ago. If she (on top of me) uses her

- left hand to pin both of my arms, I can use my right leg to press on her left elbow joint. I can then move my right leg over her left shoulder, and press on her neck.
- right hand to pin both of my arms, I can use my left leg to press on her right elbow joint. I can then move my left leg over her right shoulder, and press on her neck.

I'm sure others may have better solution than mine.

LOL You just wanted an excuse to roll around with your wife i sometimes try that on my wife as well.

No offense meant to you.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

You could stack them up. Always good to hear them try to breathe. :supcool:

And theres multiple defenses to the stack as well but thats if your going against a mediocre or better grappler.

Not to mention Somebody try's to stack me im going to own their eyes to set up the sweep or lock.

 

[Hanzou]

No, it is nonsense in your opinion. I'll guarantee if you have a relatively inexperienced grappler on the ground and you hit him in the face he will release. Whether that is the best way or not is a different debate.

That's the whole point; A relatively inexperienced grappler isn't going to attack you and put you in the guard position. A white belt in Bjj wouldn't do it, high school wrestlers don't even learn the guard, and a backyard wrestling/MMA enthusiast wouldn't do it either (You can't ground and pound from your back).

The only time you would logically see that position in a street fight is if the person doing the guard was on the defensive against you (and frankly if you're that good against a grappler, why do you need a video?), or if they're so much better than you that they purposely go into guard to toy with you before they choke you into oblivion. But why would they even do that? Again, they would just mount you and dominate you from there.

The very idea that you would ever face someone inexperienced enough in the guard that you could punch them in the face and knock them out is (like I said before) nonsense. It's also a very good indicator of the grappling knowledge displayed in those videos.

Where's the anti-grappling against side control;

You're more likely to see that than anything else.

 

[Tez3]

[Qwould suggestelganger;1663060]And there are defenses to the stack as well but thats if your going against a mediocre or better grappler.

Not to mention Somebody try's to stack me im going to own their eyes to set up the sweep or lock.[/QUOTE]

There are defences for everything.
I would suggest different techniques against a mediocre opponent from that used against a better one, why waste effort. I have absolutely no idea what your second sentence means I'm afraid.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are defences for everything.
I would suggest different techniques against a mediocre opponent from that used against a better one, why waste effort. I have absolutely no idea what your second sentence means I'm afraid.

Should we assume our opponent are average Joe, or should we assume our opponent are someone on our own level?

If you deal with

- average Joe, when he punches at you, you may hit him back 6 times while his punch is still frozen in the air (it's a joke of course).
- someone on your level, when you make a move, you will expose your weakness, your opponent will take advantage on your weakness and counter you.

To reduce your risk to the minimum when you make any move is very important. This is why when you talk about "anti-grappling", you have to assume that your opponent has as good grappling skill as your striking skill.

 

[K-man]

That's the whole point; A relatively inexperienced grappler isn't going to attack you and put you in the guard position. A white belt in Bjj wouldn't do it, high school wrestlers don't even learn the guard, and a backyard wrestling/MMA enthusiast wouldn't do it either (You can't ground and pound from your back).

The only time you would logically see that position in a street fight is if the person doing the guard was on the defensive against you (and frankly if you're that good against a grappler, why do you need a video?), or if they're so much better than you that they purposely go into guard to toy with you before they choke you into oblivion. But why would they even do that? Again, they would just mount you and dominate you from there.

The very idea that you would ever face someone inexperienced enough in the guard that you could punch them in the face and knock them out is (like I said before) nonsense. It's also a very good indicator of the grappling knowledge displayed in those videos.

Where's the anti-grappling against side control?

Are you seriously suggesting there is do defence against side control?

So what you are saying is that a relatively inexperience grappler won't close a guard on you? At what stage do you teach guard to BJJ/MMA newbies?

 

[Tez3]

Should we assume our opponent are average Joe, or assume our opponent are someone on our own level?

If you deal with

- average Joe, when he punches at you, you may hit him back 6 times while his punch is still frozen in the air (it's a joke of course).
- someone on your level, when you make a move, you will expose your weakness, your opponent will take advantage on your weakness and counter you.

To reduce your risk to the minimum when you make any move is very important. This is why when you talk about "anti-grappling", you have to assume that your opponent has as good grappling skill as your striking skill.

I always assume my opponent is better than I until proven otherwise, it would be stupid not to. I don't talk anti-grappling at all, I consider it as 'defences against.........' Luckily for me I have both striking and grappling skills so not so fussed about what my opponent wants to do.