Anti-grappling.

[Blindside]

Some questions.

1) How hard was the strike?
2) How long was the contact (Was it an elastic or inelastic collision)?
3) Was there a momentary pause after he got hit?
4) Was there a complete seal on his ear hole (the pressure wave does more damage when it has nowhere else to go)?
5) Did his head move with the blow?

A double ear slap is not a finishing technique it is a set up or a distraction for a finishing technique.

1) Full power downward diagonal strike from a padded stick
2) Momentary
3) Yes, but since he just took a full power shot to the side of the head from a stick, the cause is difficult to assess to to the earshot or just getting his bell rung. The sticks we use are about 13 oz, quite heavy for a padded stick, I have TKO'd guys through a fencing mask before with one.
4) No idea, but since it burst his eardrum, I would say the damage was done
5) Yes, quite a bit.

 

[Buka]

I'm in no way an elite anything, but I learned punching from within guard, and punching people IN my guard, the same time I learned the guard. We did it from day one.(closed guard) It's something I originally thought just naturally came with guard work. I'm really glad I was taught that way, you get good at it as the years go by.

I'm not talking about punching a seasoned ju-jitsu man, if I was rolling with one we sure as hell wouldn't be punching. And I don't compete in MMA, but I'd feel just fine and dandy concerning guard punching if I did. Elbowing, too, at least from the bottom.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Getting back to the original topic, one way to look at it is the old adage - "you're only as good as your sparring partners." In this context, that means your "anti-grappling" is only as good as your grappling partners. Likewise your "anti-striking" is only as good as the strikers you train with.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, it's true that there's a huge gap between elite MMA fighters and average Joe martial artists.

To be fair, there's a decent gap between a competing MMA amateur and the average twice a week martial artist.

You can flip that around, however. Your average Joe martial artist is not likely to end up in the situation where they're in the guard of an elite MMA fighter. If average Joe is in a fight and ends up in someone's guard, his opponent is likely to be either a) an untrained person who just caught guard by instinct or b) an average BJJ student who statistically speaking will be either white or blue belt and (the way things are going these days) may have only ever trained for tournament competition rather than street combatives or MMA. In either case, striking from within the guard is a perfectly viable option.

Yes, but that anti-grappling video is stating that it is designed to counter advanced grapplers. I would consider a Bjj exponent from purple onwards to be an advanced grappler. And that video is basically stating that that laughable technique shown in the gif will work on any level grappler that puts you in guard.

 

[RTKDCMB]

To be fair, there's a decent gap between a competing MMA amateur and the average twice a week martial artist.

That depends upon the context and the relative experience and skill level, remember it is not the quantity of training that is important it is the quality.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

The whole subject of anti-grappling is a bit of an oxymoron since you have to know quite a bit about grappling to prevent a take down and to also get back up to your feet if you were taken to the ground by a skilled grappler.

I see why styles try to come up with techniques they called anti grappling techniques but in reality if your not moderately experienced in takedown and grappling arts these techniques are most likely not going to work well against a moderately skilled grappler.

 

[drop bear]

Did you actually watch the video? He was using punches to distract while performing a standing guard break. The punches didn't break the guard, the standing guard break broke the guard.

BTW, the punches were actually pretty pointless. You can do the exact same guard break without the punches.

Punches have a point in their own right.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

... remember it is not the quantity of training that is important it is the quality.

I'd say it's both. A fighter who trains 20 hours per week with mediocre instruction is very likely to be more dangerous than a fighter who trains 2 hours a week with really good instruction.

 

[Hanzou]

Punches have a point in their own right.

Well sure they do. I was merely pointing out that that guy wasn't breaking the guard with punches. He was breaking the guard with grappling.

Also the vast majority of MMA guys are very good to excellent grapplers in their own right.

 

[K-man]

I have no problem believing that an elite MMA fighter who has trained extensively in grappling, guard work, and striking from within guard could definitely finish someone with strikes from within guard.

I'm not talking about elite MMA fighters though. I'm talking about average Joe martial artists who are watching anti-grappling videos and have limited to no grappling experience.

Come on Hanzou, you can't have it both ways. You keep posting crap video to 'prove' that something can't be done then dismiss it when someone shows that it can. You have been referring to the Gracies and others all along to make your points. What you are basically saying is that no average martial artists are capable of doing what the professionals do. That is wrong. You keep telling us that our training is no good on the street because we couldn't compete on the ground with a skilled grappler. Well, duh! We are not training to fight a skilled grappler on the street or anywhere else. The average Joe obviously would be caned by a professional grappler but that is not to say that your average guy can't perform good technique.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, there's a decent gap between a competing MMA amateur and the average twice a week martial artist.

And what has that to do with anything, other to say that you are so much better than the average martial artist? To me it is obvious that the majority of people on MT made a huge mistake years ago when we chose our style of martial art. Many of us are way too old to change. Now we will go to our graves knowing that none of us achieved our potential. If we had of trained BJJ we may even have got as good as you.

Yes, but that anti-grappling video is stating that it is designed to counter advanced grapplers. I would consider a Bjj exponent from purple onwards to be an advanced grappler. And that video is basically stating that that laughable technique shown in the gif will work on any level grappler that puts you in guard.

Why is every comment you make derogatory and why do you keep banging on about one technique in a video? Move on, you have made your point (at least 10 times), the concept is fraudulent, it is false advertising, the guys demonstrating have no experience, it won't work, it's poor technique, it's laughable, it's a joke, nobody else knows as much and you, no one else can have an opinion ... did I miss anything?

 

[K-man]

Your "average" MMA ground and pound is from the mount position, not the guard position. You'll never be able to punch your way out of a properly applied guard.

In short, attempting to break the (closed) guard with punches is a pretty dumb thing to do.

Well sure they do. I was merely pointing out that that guy wasn't breaking the guard with punches. He was breaking the guard with grappling.

Also the vast majority of MMA guys are very good to excellent grapplers in their own right.

So you've had a change of mind?
From 'never' to 'possible but dumb'.
I suppose that's progress.

 

[geezer]

...you have made your point (at least 10 times), the concept is fraudulent, it is false advertising, the guys demonstrating have no experience, it won't work, it's poor technique, it's laughable, it's a joke, nobody else knows as much and you, no one else can have an opinion ... did I miss anything?

Yep. You forgot to mention that that Hanzou's system has the coolest logo. Haha.

...but actually, they kinda do.

 

[K-man]

Yep. You forgot to mention that that Hanzou's system has the coolest logo. Haha.

...but actually, they kinda do.

True, but anything has to be better than a logo of two guys doing whatever to each other!

 

[Hanzou]

Come on Hanzou, you can't have it both ways. You keep posting crap video to 'prove' that something can't be done then dismiss it when someone shows that it can.

That "someone" being a martial artist who trains extensively and consistently in grappling. So yes, I can have it both ways. A dojo having "anti-grappling day" once every blue moon is not the same as the grappling program in a competitive MMA gym. We can't pretend that both are equal in that department because they simply aren't.

You have been referring to the Gracies and others all along to make your points. What you are basically saying is that no average martial artists are capable of doing what the professionals do. That is wrong. You keep telling us that our training is no good on the street because we couldn't compete on the ground with a skilled grappler. Well, duh! We are not training to fight a skilled grappler on the street or anywhere else. The average Joe obviously would be caned by a professional grappler but that is not to say that your average guy can't perform good technique.

Where did I say anything about the Gracies? Also the only people I've been criticizing have been anti-grappling folks in those videos I posted and quoted from. Why do you feel that I'm talking about or attacking you specifically?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A dojo having "anti-grappling day" once every blue moon is not the same as the grappling program in a competitive MMA gym.

This is true. On the other hand, the "anti-striking" skills of a 2x per week casual sport BJJ hobbyist is not going to be a good match for the boxers in a serious competitive boxing gym. Serious combat athletes who train hard for long hours are going to have the edge over casual hobbyists regardless of style.

 

[K-man]

That "someone" being a martial artist who trains extensively and consistently in grappling. So yes, I can have it both ways. A dojo having "anti-grappling day" once every blue moon is not the same as the grappling program in a competitive MMA gym. We can't pretend that both are equal in that department because they simply aren't.

I think you have a warped view of other people's training. In your days and a junior in karate you were training a style that had virtually no grappling. We are grappling every training session. Aikido and Krav the same. The difference is that our training is directed at not going to the ground. Every day is an anti-grappling day. Can we be taken to the ground? Sure, then we practise a few techniques to regain our feet. Of course it's not the same grappling programme that you have in a competitive MMA gym. We are not training for competition. But we can train to be effective for the situation we might find ourselves in in the real world.

Where did I say anything about the Gracies? Also the only people I've been criticizing have been anti-grappling folks in those videos I posted and quoted from. Why do you feel that I'm talking about or attacking you specifically?

Hanzou, you have been criticising everyone and everything. You must be the life of the party when you dine out with friends.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On the other hand, the "anti-striking" skills of a 2x per week casual sport BJJ hobbyist is not going to be a good match for the boxers in a serious competitive boxing gym.

I assume that sport BJJ hobbyist will not try to stand on his feet and spars against that boxer for 15 rounds.

There is a big difference between "anti-grappling" and "anti-striking". One works in clinch range while the other works in striking range. The nature of combat is after you have entered the clinch range, it's difficult to get back to the striking range again. Unless you can knock your opponent out before the clinch happen, the "anti-grappling" is a continuous task after the clinch. On the other hand, the "anti-striking" is only a short task. If you can avoid the initial few punches and if you can take your opponent down, the stand up striking game will end and the ground game will start .

If you put the best wrestler and the best boxer in the ring, ask them to have 10 rounds match, who will win more rounds? The wrestler or the boxer? I'll say the wrestler will win more rounds for the following reasons:

- When your opponent moves around, if you punch on his head, most of the punching force will be cancelled out by his dodging.
- When you want to punch your opponent, you have to shift weight on your leading leg. That will give your wrestler opponent a chance to either sweep your leg, shoot at that leg, or ...
- To destroy your opponent's balance is always easier than to knock your opponent down.
- ...

So there is a big difference between "anti-grappling" and "anti-striking". You have to learn grappling to be good in "anti-grappling". You don't have to learn boxing to be good in "anti-striking".

 

[Hanzou]

I think you have a warped view of other people's training. In your days and a junior in karate you were training a style that had virtually no grappling. We are grappling every training session. Aikido and Krav the same.

Somehow I think you and I have very different definitions of "grappling".

Hanzou

, you have been criticising everyone and everything. You must be the life of the party when you dine out with friends.

In this thread its only been the Wing Chun/Tsun anti grappling vids and quotes from them that have been criticized.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In this thread its only been the Wing Chun/Tsun anti grappling vids and quotes from them that have been criticized.

This is why I prefer "general" discussion than "style" discussion. It's much easier to discuss "general striking art" vs. "general grappling art". When people said, "The striking skill in you grappling art system sucks", I would say, "I agree with you 100% there".

The term "anti-grappling" just likes the term "anti-Christ" or "anti-communist", it's a very unfriendly term. It almost declares as if all grapplers are your enemies. That's not very nice.