An interesting realistic read about M.A.

[Steve]

That was what was supposed to happen, it was designed that way to showcase the Gracies and provide a new entertainment which they hoped would make all their fortunes. It wasn't a genuine martial artist versus martial artists competition, it was fixed, they chose the fighters who would appear, fixed who fought who, all with an aim of making sure the fights turned out the way they wanted. It was never a genuine promotion. It never showcased fighters from different styles and some still buy into the story as you do, that it was all above board and genuine.

Wow. That's quite a bold accusation. And once again, without being at all specific.

Found this series which outlines all of the athletes who competed in the first three UFC events:

UFC 1: The fighter redux
UFC 2: The fighter redux (part 1)
UFC 2: The fighter redux (part 2)
UFC 3: The fighter redux

 

[FriedRice]

That was what was supposed to happen, it was designed that way to showcase the Gracies and provide a new entertainment which they hoped would make all their fortunes. It wasn't a genuine martial artist versus martial artists competition, it was fixed, they chose the fighters who would appear, fixed who fought who, all with an aim of making sure the fights turned out the way they wanted. It was never a genuine promotion. It never showcased fighters from different styles and some still buy into the story as you do, that it was all above board and genuine.

NO.

UFC 1: Gracie fought Art Jimmerson (Boxer), Ken Shamrock (Grappler), Gerard Gordeau (Savate).

UFC 2: Gracie fought: Minoki Ichihara (Karate "living legend"), Jason DeLucia (Pancrase, Kung-Fu), Remco Pardoel (Judo), Patrick Smith (TKD).

UFC 3: Gracie fought: Kimo Leopoldo (TKD).

UFC 4: Gracie fought: Ron van Clief (Kung-Fu), Keith Hackney (Kempo), Dan Severn (Greco Roman).

You claiming that any of this was fix is pretty ridiculous. Of course there would be match-ups of what would be considered to be most competitive and more entertaining; it's called a business also? At that time, up to1993, we already knew what would happen when a STANDUP STRIKER fought another standup striker = Kick-Boxing. And we already knew about Judo and Wrestling tournaments. However it was extremely rare to ever see a Striker vs. Grappler competition with ZERO DQ rules = UFC 1-4. This was mainly why Gracie was matched up with a Striker first just as Shamrock and Remco Pardoel were matched up against Strikers also...to answer the question of "what would happen".

But was Gracie able to hide from the other Grapplers as you've implied? He ended up fighting the winning Grapplers anyway (Shamrock, Remco, Severn). What would have been the point of having the Grapplers fight each other while the Strikers doing the same? They'd still end up fighting Grappler vs. Striker in the end. The way it was matched, made much more sense.

And what GREAT AWESOME Grappler that wasn't allowed to compete at all, in order to protect Royce Gracie. Can you name them?

Royce Gracie beat Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, who both later became the dominating forces of the early UFC's.....destroying most of their competition whether strikers or grapplers.... with Severn's PRO MMA record being 101-19. So there goes your notion of Gracie fighting cans.

 

[Steve]

NO.

UFC 1: Gracie fought Art Jimmerson (Boxer), Ken Shamrock (Grappler), Gerard Gordeau (Savate).

UFC 2: Gracie fought: Minoki Ichihara (Karate "living legend"), Jason DeLucia (Pancrase, Kung-Fu), Remco Pardoel (Judo), Patrick Smith (TKD).

UFC 3: Gracie fought: Kimo Leopoldo (TKD).

UFC 4: Gracie fought: Ron van Clief (Kung-Fu), Keith Hackney (Kempo), Dan Severn (Greco Roman).

You claiming that any of this was fix is pretty ridiculous. Of course there would be match-ups of what would be considered to be most competitive and more entertaining; it's called a business also? At that time, up to1993, we already knew what would happen when a STANDUP STRIKER fought another standup striker = Kick-Boxing. And we already knew about Judo and Wrestling tournaments. However it was extremely rare to ever see a Striker vs. Grappler competition with ZERO DQ rules = UFC 1-4. This was mainly why Gracie was matched up with a Striker first just as Shamrock and Remco Pardoel were matched up against Strikers also...to answer the question of "what would happen".

But was Gracie able to hide from the other Grapplers as you've implied? He ended up fighting the winning Grapplers anyway (Shamrock, Remco, Severn). What would have been the point of having the Grapplers fight each other while the Strikers doing the same? They'd still end up fighting Grappler vs. Striker in the end. The way it was matched, made much more sense.

And what GREAT AWESOME Grappler that wasn't allowed to compete at all, in order to protect Royce Gracie. Can you name them?

Royce Gracie beat Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn, who both later became the dominating forces of the early UFC's.....destroying most of their competition whether strikers or grapplers.... with Severn's PRO MMA record being 101-19. So there goes your notion of Gracie fighting cans.

UFC 2 or 3, can't remember. I think it was UFC 2, the big, 16 person extravaganza. The matches were actually paired up by Jim Brown, who picked the names out of a fish bowl.

 

[Tez3]

So there goes your notion of Gracie fighting cans.

Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers. The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business, I would for sure.
I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better. Ps. it didn't.

 

[Steve]

I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence. If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it. What a story that would be.

For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well. Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys.

That is not the same as that they were rigged.

 

[FriedRice]

Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, .

You just realized that MMA was also a business? I bet they teach Kung-Fu or whatever that you do for free where you are right?

you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers.

Yet you can't name any fighters that was not allowed in the early UFC's for Gracie to fight. Can you name 5? Why dodge?

The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business,

Very WRONG and quite ignorant of the history of the UFC, MMA and even Vale Tudo.

1. The UFC was going bankrupt under the original owner, Art Davies. It was getting banned in many major cities and states, renowned for combat sports. UFC was desperate for any venues but ended up mostly holding their events in Alabama and other rural states. It was marketed as a BLOODY BLOOD SPORT with no rules, which promptly got politicians legislating against it, ie. John McCain....leading it to being banned by many PPV venues. Tell us again how this was such a "very good", "business model".

2. UFC was purchased from Davies for $2 million in 2001, by the Fertitta Brothers and had Dana White running it, trying to clean up the "blood sport" image with lots of rules & regulations. But it kept losing TENS of MILLIONS of dollars from 2001-2004. The Fertitta Bros even sunk in $50,000,000 of their own cash to keep it going b/c they and White were BJJ enthusiasts who loved the sport.

3. It was only in 2005, when The Ultimate Fighter aired on Spike TV, that when the UFC rebounded. But it was just trying out, whatever may work and nothing to lose now; after losing tens of millions already. I don't think you know much about the history of this sport and the UFC.

I would for sure.
I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better. Ps. it didn't.

Ok counselor, then who did the Promoters of the UFC barred from entering the UFC in order to prevent them from fighting Royce Gracie to protect their master plan? Can you name 5 of them? Tick tock.

 

[CB Jones]

I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence. If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it. What a story that would be.

For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well. Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys.

That is not the same as that they were rigged.

The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.

 

[FriedRice]

I wish @Tez3 would actually support these wild accusations with some actual evidence. If the early UFC events were rigged, I would love to learn more about it. What a story that would be.

I don't think he followed it when it came out in 1993. Not even years after. It took a while before the TMA communities submitted to MMA, well at least much of them. That was when you started seeing Karate & Kung-Fu joints, adding "MMA" to their sign or went completely new, with an MMA name. Nowadays, you see BJJ classes as apart of TKD schools, etc.

For what it's worth, I do agree that they were organized to showcase the Gracies, and I agree that it worked pretty well. Many of the high level martial artists who were involved in those early UFCs became students of BJJ as a result, along with a lot of other guys.

That is not the same as that they were rigged.

Yes I agree, while the Gracies had big stakes in it to promote their BJJ brand....it could have also backfired horribly on them should Royce lost or lost badly. The model was actually, awesome for many Martial Arts Fighters, but not so much for the general, non-fighting Martial Artists nor the non-lowbrow public, who thought it was barbaric. Royce Gracie even said that he "needed the money bad" from the UFC 02 winnings ($60,000?). Royce was not banking lots of $$$. Under this original Blood Sport model of Art Davies & Royler Gracie, it was going bankrupt.

 

[FriedRice]

The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.

Any proof(s)?

 

[Tez3]

You just realized that MMA was also a business? I bet they teach Kung-Fu or whatever that you do for free where you are right?

Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.

 

[Paul_D]

Why should strikers be allowed to get to their feet?

I didn't say they should.

There was no fix.

I didn't say there was.

No one could remember what reason was people say the early UFC's were skewed in favour of grapplers. I just asked if this was the reason as I seem to remember reading something along those lines.

 

[Steve]

The UFC claiming that the UFC was created as an infomercial for the Gracie's made a lot of people think it was set up for him.

Slow down. I think you're missing some key details. Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial. Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged. Those are not the same thing. Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.

In the realm of possibility is that the Gracies were so confident in their product, they weren't really all that worried about who they showcased. From what I've read, they were more concerned about the inclusion of rules to protect the OTHER guys than to protect Royce, and based upon the credentials of those who participated, it seems like they made a sincere attempt to include a diverse group of martial artists from a variety of backgrounds. All were high level within their respective styles.

 

[Steve]

Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.

@FriedRice This is about as close to an admission that she is wrong as you'll get from @Tez3. My recommendation is take it as her saying, "You're right and I'm wrong," and move on.

 

[drop bear]

Oh dear. The early years of the UFC were the years spent building up the business, you don't have the people you are relying on to make money being beaten by all and sundry, not good for business. The early UFCs were designed to showcase the Gracies, obviously they found and matched up fighters who had more than a very good chance of losing to the star performers. The business model was a very good one and as we can see now the company is worth a fortune. Most of us would have done exactly the same if we wanted a successful business, I would for sure.
I didn't imply that Gracie hid from other grapplers, I never imply anything, you should know that, you made that up yourself. So that's a reach on your part to make your faux indignation sound better. Ps. it didn't.

You don't think it was hard to get top fighters to compete in what was a freak show at the time.?

 

[drop bear]

I didn't say they should.


I didn't say there was.

No one could remember what reason was people say the early UFC's were skewed in favour of grapplers. I just asked if this was the reason as I seem to remember reading something along those lines.

Looking back. Everyone was doing some bizzaro stuff by todays standards.

It was mainly poor fighting skills that gave it to the BJJers at the start.

 

[Buka]

Hold on now -

First of all, the Gracies didn't start the UFC, Art Davie did. And the reason the fighters in UFC 1 were the ones they were is because they were the only ones with the balls to agree to a televised no holds barred (pretty much) fight. Art Jamison was paid more than anyone else in the competition - because art Davie really needed a boxer there. This was because his original idea for the competition stemmed from the old arguement (when Davie was a kid) "who would win, a boxer or a wrestler.
This was a very common question back in the day.

And I highly, recommend, and I mean highly this book -
"Is This Legal?: The Inside Story of The First UFC from the Man Who Created It"

If you have a few minutes, you should go look this up on Amazon. Like, right now. You guys will love this book. Anyone in the fight game would.

And anyone who thinks any of the fights were "worked", doesn't know a thing about fighting. Not thing one.

 

[drop bear]

Slow down. I think you're missing some key details. Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial. Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged. Those are not the same thing. Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.

In the realm of possibility is that the Gracies were so confident in their product, they weren't really all that worried about who they showcased. From what I've read, they were more concerned about the inclusion of rules to protect the OTHER guys than to protect Royce, and based upon the credentials of those who participated, it seems like they made a sincere attempt to include a diverse group of martial artists from a variety of backgrounds. All were high level within their respective styles.

Benny the jet may have been ducked in the Gracie challenge. His name sometimes gets mentioned as a notable absence in UFC. But then he is also little.

 

[FriedRice]

Was that an attempt at sarcasm dear boy? Brave attempt but no lollipop. MMA per se is not a business.
You are getting quite boring and quite off topic too ( don't let that stop you though, your posturing is amusing).
Anyway crack on, I'm off to light candles, won't be back until this time tomorrow. Have fun sweetie, don't do anything I wouldn't.

Bye, and I love you bro.

 

[FriedRice]

You don't think it was hard to get top fighters to compete in what was a freak show at the time.?

Also, remember that the grand prize was $60,000. $1000 for each fight and another $1000 for each win (IIRC). That's a hell of a lot of money for the average, full time, Pro Martial Artist fighter back in 1993...who probably made like $10,000 a year fighting, if he's lucky and pretty high in the rankings. The rest of the other big time Martial Artists (who weren't fighters) were busy peddling seminars where 10-15 people show up. Or they teach for fun and work a real job elsewhere.

Even today, the lowest UFC fighter on the card in the Preliminary fights of a non-PPV UFC event, makes around $5,000....so the ones fighting in the Pre-Preliminary, is going to be even less. Local Pro MMA fighters in local events, it's usually $500-3000. Amateur, you usually fight for a trophy. I don't think Meisha Tate even made $60k in her 2nd Title fight vs. Ronda Rousey. Cyborg makes $90-120k per fight in Invicta while the other 12-16 fighters split like $40k for the night....and paying Cyborg is claimed to almost put Invicta under.

$60k for a night's work was a God-send for Martial Artists....and especially Wrestlers, who's greatest future outlook was usually High School Wrestling Coach. Ken Shamrock was probably the biggest name who was making money in Japan fighting, and he went for that $60k.

 

[CB Jones]

Slow down. I think you're missing some key details. Let's say UFC 1 was an infomercial. Something can be created as a venue to highlight/advertise GJJ and NOT be rigged. Those are not the same thing. Using your own analogy, infomercials are not inherently fraudulent.

I'm not making any claims just pointing out in an interview years ago either Dana White or Joe Rogan (can't remember) made the comment that the first few UFCs were basically infomercials for the Gracies....and a lot of people took that as it was intentionally set up for Royce. Probably just a poor choice of words.