An Attack That May Never Happen

[Flying Crane]

Would love to see it.

OK Mark, Here is the thread.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29947&highlight=kosho+ryu

It's a discussion about Kosho Shorei Ryu, of James Mitose. It's a long thread, 11 or so pages. It has a lot of unfortunate bickering, as James Mitose is a controversial character. You might want to skim thru the thread to get the gist of the discussion, but my own thoughts are primarily contained in posts # 97, 99, and 103, which are all on page 7. Starting on Page 6 might make sense, I think the lead-in to my thoughts begin about there.

It was just a thought I had at the time, regarding all the SD techs that we practice. I have absolutely no proof that my thoughts are historically accurate. But it's an interesting thought, nonetheless. Enjoy.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I certainly understand and appreciate your position with regard to the full nelson. I think the reality is that not everyone agrees with it, as it all comes down to personal experience and personal perspective, which may or may not be accurate. If I recall correctly, I think someone else in that other discussion mentioned having seen it done for real, or maybe it was done on him for real. Maybe I don't remember that correctly. But at any rate, different people have different opinions on it, maybe you think their idea is foolish, maybe they think yours is foolish

.

At any rate, if someone chooses to believe the attack is viable, then they should practice a viable defense against it. Whatever their solution to the attack, it should be well-thought out and effective. The reality may be that they will never have a reason to ever use it, but at least they are practiceing a defense that works and makes sense, built upon solid ideas and skills.

I might decide that an attack with a longbow at 50 paces is viable and realistic. So maybe I practice diving and rolling quickly behind whatever cover might be available, and making myself a difficult target. To believe an attack like that might actually happen is sort of foolish in today's day and age. But at least my response to that attack does make sense. What else would you do if someone started shooting arrows at you? And maybe those skills I develop just might come in handy in some other way, even if I never need to use them to dodge arrows.

Kind of similar to your second paragraph that I quoted here.

By the way, I'd be curious to hear what other attacks we have defenses for, that you feel the attack itself is improbably or impossible.

That someone was me and you are right on both counts.

 

[Flying Crane]

That someone was me and you are right on both counts.

Thank you, and my instructor has indicated the same.

 

[LawDog]

Flying Crane,
On posting # 36 I also stated that I have seen this done.

 

[Flying Crane]

Flying Crane,
On a previous posting I also stated that I have seen this done.

Yes, I definitely noticed that as well. thank you, I for one am happy to hear your examples and experiences. I think it adds to the complete picture.

 

[kidswarrior]

Yes, I definitely noticed that as well. thank you, I for one am happy to hear your examples and experiences. I think it adds to the complete picture.

I second Flying Crane on this!

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

For the purpose of discussing the "impossible"

3:00 mark.

Note: Very conscious and very non-compliant. Also skilled at and knowledgeable of countering this type of move as this is Olympic Level.

[yt]6I5hRWjOn-c[/yt]

 

[Flying Crane]

For the purpose of discussing the "impossible"

3:00 mark.

Note: Very conscious and very non-compliant. Also skilled at and knowledgeable of countering this type of move as this is Olympic Level.

[yt]6I5hRWjOn-c[/yt]

I think it's actually at about 5:30, as the film counts down backwards.

Good find. Not a standup full nelson, but there it is, very clear.

 

[kidswarrior]

OK Mark, Here is the thread.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29947&highlight=kosho+ryu

It's a discussion about Kosho Shorei Ryu, of James Mitose. It's a long thread, 11 or so pages. It has a lot of unfortunate bickering, as James Mitose is a controversial character. You might want to skim thru the thread to get the gist of the discussion, but my own thoughts are primarily contained in posts # 97, 99, and 103, which are all on page 7. Starting on Page 6 might make sense, I think the lead-in to my thoughts begin about there.

It was just a thought I had at the time, regarding all the SD techs that we practice. I have absolutely no proof that my thoughts are historically accurate. But it's an interesting thought, nonetheless. Enjoy.

Thanks, Michael. I'll look it over carefully. :asian:

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think it's actually at about 5:30, as the film counts down backwards.

Good find. Not a standup full nelson, but there it is, very clear.

yeah on youtube it counts up and embedded it counts down, go figure.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

For the purpose of discussing the "impossible"

3:00 mark.

Note: Very conscious and very non-compliant. Also skilled at and knowledgeable of countering this type of move as this is Olympic Level.

So, I got this buddy, Shaun. He and I are discussing full-nelsons in the park one day. His background is a BB in Shorinji Kempo, Wado-ryu (since very small), and a butt-load of jujutsu. We're in our early to mid twenties at this time, but both been in this stuff since we could crawl, and both pretty sure of ourselves. I start to force his head down to the ground under the nelson, using some nasty tricks I picked up on the journey. All at once, I can't bend him. He's pressing his fingers into his forehead, and his forehead into his fingers. Cheap trick, but worked beautifully. (I should mention he ran for a spell with some of Wally Jay's guys, and picked up some cool, cheap tricks along the way...very talented martial artist...so much so, he gave a half-dozen PD a run for their money while being arrested for DWB...he only shucked and shrugged, and helped gravity do what it does; never threw a blow, but they just kept hitting the ground. My man was cuffed through all this...he just didn't feel like being cuffed, AND clubbed).

Later that week, I bring this up to another buddy of mine named Jeff, who was a direct student of the old man. He thinks I'm an idiot for even letting it get to that point...where you have to fight out of it. So, I do my damnedest to put it on him while he basically just vigorously says "No!", and sloughs me off. He never clocked me, but he could slap me (that was the agreement), and I never got it on him. As a bouncer, I worked with lots of guys who wrestled; we even had an olympic judoist in the stable. We repeated that experiment on many occasions with all comers. "Just say No, while you wiggle and twist". They never got one on me.

Some years later, I'd see footage of Royler doing the shuck and jive on some Torrance PD dudes at a demo. They're about 4 on 1 (maybe more, maybe less...been awhile), trying to swarm him. He just keeps twisting and turning and twirling. Akin to what we would do against a nelson attempt to make a point.

When I was merely 16, one of the local post-college stoner-thugs wanted to give me a ration...go after the geeky karate boy so he could feel better about his own lousy life. He put me in his best nelson; I offered no resistance (a dear friend had been killed in a car wreck, and I was melancholic...not interested in fighting). He chided me, and I just waited. There was no pain, only restricted motion in one or two planes. Then he started verbally badgering the young lady I had been walking with. I slipped it effortlessly...he was worse at it than the spec ops guys I was training with at the time, and we did work escapes in the context of arrest and detainment prevention techniques (how not to get caught and questioned). He tried again to get me in it, as well as some basic elbow locks/cranks as transitions to the position. I was a 150 lb 6'4" beanpole who was a skinny weakling; he was about a 245 lbs 6' ball-player & college wrestler with a lot of confidence in his strength and skill. He never got it once I stopped letting him.

I've also seen Olympic wrestling footag...a Russian guy breaking necks by suplexing athletes from other countries and landing them on their heads...athletes who were Olympic level wrestlers, in the Olympics. Doesn't mean it's a likely attack. My chances of being suplexed by that Russian wrestler are about 1 in 6.5 billion...should I have a technique against it? Or would I be better off spending my time prepping for the hefty right hand I'm waaay more likely to bump into? Your personal experience has informed you that this is a liklihood to be prepared for. Mine has informed me of the exact opposite.

Be good,

D.

 

[Flying Crane]

Your personal experience has informed you that this is a liklihood to be prepared for. Mine has informed me of the exact opposite.

Be good,

D.

I don't believe the initial discussion from which this thread spun off was whether or not it is "likely". I believe the original claim was more on the lines of "it's impossible". We've seen personal testimony here, and a video example, of the real possibility, even if it might still be arguably "unlikely", a point which those with far more experience than I have are free to debate.

I've never had a real fight in my life. I've never been attacked in any of the myriad of methods for which I practice defenses. I guess my experience informs me that being attacked is highly unlikely. Should I quit training altogether?

 

[MJS]

I don't believe the initial discussion from which this thread spun off was whether or not it is "likely". I believe the original claim was more on the lines of "it's impossible". We've seen personal testimony here, and a video example, of the real possibility, even if it might still be arguably "unlikely", a point which those with far more experience than I have are free to debate.

I've never had a real fight in my life. I've never been attacked in any of the myriad of methods for which I practice defenses. I guess my experience informs me that being attacked is highly unlikely. Should I quit training altogether?

Mike, you hit the nail on the head with this post!:ultracool

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't believe the initial discussion from which this thread spun off was whether or not it is "likely". I believe the original claim was more on the lines of "it's impossible". We've seen personal testimony here, and a video example, of the real possibility, even if it might still be arguably "unlikely", a point which those with far more experience than I have are free to debate.

I've never had a real fight in my life. I've never been attacked in any of the myriad of methods for which I practice defenses. I guess my experience informs me that being attacked is highly unlikely. Should I quit training altogether?

If you're a pacifist, yes. Or maybe it's just a case of the Dirty Harry line about a good man knowing his limitations. The irony of someone who has never had to use their stuff telling old battle cruisers about combat prep is...

I still hold to it being impossible against an even mildly informed defender, or even just a spastically resisting street punk. The wrestler is taught to use wrestling, not martial arts. It's a competition for positional dominance, and often lacks any structural shoring in transition or response; it certainly lacks opportunity for most of what's great in what we do in kenpo or jujutsu. I don't consider this athlete getting topped by another athlete as proof of this being a viable attack requiring studied defense. 5 minutes is all I need to show a person how not to get caught in this...and that will be plugging them into their own spasticity, not spent reiewing some deep, arcane kenpo wisdom. Not years of repetition on unecessarily complex choreography agaiunst unlikely attacks.

And the name of the thread is "An attack that MAY NEVER happen." May is not a definitive. Last I checked, I was still replying in this thread.

I still say "bah!" to full nelson defenses, and can't help but look sideways at folks who find themselves in one...be they wrestlers, karateka, kenpoists, or just plain drunk brawlers. Awake and in a mood, you just should never find yourself there. Wrestling rules forbid spastic writhing and twirling, followed by a pop in the mouth.

I like Long 3 as a thematic form, but unfortunately it has some nelson stuff in it, and that ridiculous Silk tech. Take a random guess at how often I expect to find myself needing to use Wings of Silk? And, yes...I have stopped practicing it. I'd rather put that time in on the heavy bag. Along with the time spent on Scraping Hoof and the other nelson kids.

D.

 

[MJS]

I still hold to it being impossible against an even mildly informed defender, or even just a spastically resisting street punk. The wrestler is taught to use wrestling, not martial arts. It's a competition for positional dominance, and often lacks any structural shoring in transition or response; it certainly lacks opportunity for most of what's great in what we do in kenpo or jujutsu. I don't consider this athlete getting topped by another athlete as proof of this being a viable attack requiring studied defense. 5 minutes is all I need to show a person how not to get caught in this...and that will be plugging them into their own spasticity, not spent reiewing some deep, arcane kenpo wisdom. Not years of repetition on unecessarily complex choreography agaiunst unlikely attacks.

What about the biker that Lawdog mentioned?

And the name of the thread is "An attack that MAY NEVER happen." May is not a definitive. Last I checked, I was still replying in this thread.

Thru out this thread, there have been comments regarding 'impossible' attacks. Like I said in my OP, I have not had a gun pointed at me, and that may never happen, but I still train the disarms. The major line of thinking seems to be, its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

I still say "bah!" to full nelson defenses, and can't help but look sideways at folks who find themselves in one...be they wrestlers, karateka, kenpoists, or just plain drunk brawlers. Awake and in a mood, you just should never find yourself there. Wrestling rules forbid spastic writhing and twirling, followed by a pop in the mouth.

Ok.

I like Long 3 as a thematic form, but unfortunately it has some nelson stuff in it, and that ridiculous Silk tech. Take a random guess at how often I expect to find myself needing to use Wings of Silk? And, yes...I have stopped practicing it. I'd rather put that time in on the heavy bag. Along with the time spent on Scraping Hoof and the other nelson kids.

D.

I'm getting the impression that the line of thinking should be, "The odds of this happening are so small, I don't need to train for it." My next question: Its seems like Parker taught certain things for those "commercial" dojos, with less than a handful being taught things more 'effective' things. So one would think or at least this is what I'm thinking...that if you're going to train, and the goal is SD, why wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

One of my friends e-mailed me to say he read my post, and that I was being an *** to Flying Crane, speaking down to him. First, let me apologize for that tone if it's coming accross that way; not my intent, and not what's in my head. I have great respect for Michaels reasoning, even when we don't agree, and have for several years now that we've been on the same boards.

What IS in my head, but didn't state clearly, is the difference between the "two truths". Objective and Subjective. Objectively, a wall may be green. Subjectively, being colorblind, that wall looks gray to me. Both are true, but the subjective is more real to me than the Pantone light wave reflection of the wall.

Should events be trained for? Explored, yes. Trained for? Depends on what you find in exploration. LawDawg explored, and had the biker experience. He will vote to keep nelson replies in. I explored, and found them unecessary. I still teach how to address them (Shauns fingers-to-forehead, squirm like hell, bust the guy in the grill), but that's covered in about a 5-10 minute seminar while discussing other techs that share some conceptual themes. In my subjective evaluation, not enough of a threat to warrant more consideration than that.

A single signal only communicates meaning based on perspective. Positioning. I've been a lucky SOB, in that I've always managed to find people to train with who possess hardened, experiential perspectives that appeal to my twisted preferences. One of my profs was a spec ops fellow in Viet Nam, and after. Lotsa good experience to bring to the table. I've managed to land with folks like this over the years. Currently, my training buddy is a retired SEAL who saw duty in Panama, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and others. Not an amateur in CQB. We have both been impressed by the knifework of a fellow whos stuff has seen action in the deserts; very impressive gent (picture Parker whipping out techs, but they are knife combo's). I will weigh thier opinions more heavily around what works in certain scenarios because of stuff they have seen. They may not be right. Objectively, they may have some glaring errors in approach or reasoning. Subjectively, though, their techs and errors have combined successfully enough with luck to allow us to gather on the same mat to discuss these things.

Objectively, a comprehensive self-defense system ought to have a solution they explore in preparation for a concievable assault. Likely, or unlikely. Note: Chapel says he thinks it's impossible, but he offers a SD tech/solution anyway. My experience of him as a professor is that he's not apt to waste time on something he considers completely useless. I consider the kenpoo techs for the rear full nelson weak, the attack flawed, but still make sure I drill my "assertive spasticity" solution with all my people, because it isn't self-evident in the rush of brawling. And some rehearsal is necessary for success, IMO. So I still address it.

Mr. Slosek wrote:
"...if you're going to train, and the goal is SD, why wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible?"

I would argue that training to remove yourself from a completed nelson is planned failure, which is always a bad theme in training. Some guy starts shooting on you and going for position, do you wait to see where he's planning on going with it before you react, or do you react to your attacker & environemnt and respond to the already extant conditions at hand? Training to be as effective as possible would, to me, invole the idea of working to knock a guy out, or sprawl, or reverse the throw, or block the mount, or escape the mount, or reverse position, or block a hand as it snakes around your throat, or not give up your back, or any of a number of options that present themselves on the way to finding yourself in a rear choke with hooks in...as opposed to working kenpo techniques against a completed rear choke,. If you find yourself there, the technology in your SD tech's that has failed you up to this point won't all at once kick in and provide you brilliant success from within a completed assault.

Sam ting with the nelson. You have all of the fighting ranges available to you that had to get worked through before he had a completed, unlikely control manipulation on you. He likely lobbed a puch at your head on the way in; or shot to a shoulder grab, arm control, or bearhug while transitioning to the nelson attempt; perhaps he approached from "the dark". He probably would be forced to get one arm at a time, giving you ample time to respond. Or, he's trying to slip both arms up and under your armpits, magically unnoticed as his fingers slip behind your neck and interlace. But you have no inclination he's there until he's got the hold completely on, and is compelling you downward? Nah. Plenty of opportunity to respond before this point. If you've let things get so bad that Scraping Hoof is your only remaining option, you suck at fighting and deserve to get tooled in the nelson.

2 scenarios I can foresee that might find you in a completed nelson, and you're screwed in each.

1. Bad guy holds you or loved one at gunpoint while his accomplice places you in it. Bad News = your or your loved one are still at gunpoint, regardless of your twicksy kenpo.

2. You've been in a brawl with multiples, and while messing with a couple of the first bad guys, a 3rd or 4th slips into the dogpile and goes for this, which you don't notice because of the melee chaos, so you find yourself in it, helpless. Bad News = if your losing this badly against multiples, you were going to lose, and were already losing, anyway...this is just a new nail in an already seconds-old coffin. He or his buddies were in the middle of beating the piss out of you in the first place for you not to see it coming.

To be as effective as possible in self-defense would include environmental awareness to see it coming and block it, just like we do when we raise a knee into the guys ribs to prevent him from mounting us from side-mount. It would also include knwledge of structural integrity issues that work for or against you in relative positions, and the ability to use this information to prevent your opponent from destabilizing your neuro-mechanical congruency (have your buddy place you in a full neslon, then try to force you over or down. Push both of your palms into your forehead, while activelt pushing your forehead forward into the palms. Let me know how well the nelson works). NOT just worst-case scenario planning. Otherwise, we'd be learning re-writes of some idiot version of Wings of Silk as a defense against being rear-mounted and choked in Mata Leon. Or is that in Form 4 somewhere?

Be good and train sensibly,

Dave

 

[MJS]

Should events be trained for? Explored, yes. Trained for? Depends on what you find in exploration. LawDawg explored, and had the biker experience. He will vote to keep nelson replies in. I explored, and found them unecessary. I still teach how to address them (Shauns fingers-to-forehead, squirm like hell, bust the guy in the grill), but that's covered in about a 5-10 minute seminar while discussing other techs that share some conceptual themes. In my subjective evaluation, not enough of a threat to warrant more consideration than that.

A single signal only communicates meaning based on perspective. Positioning. I've been a lucky SOB, in that I've always managed to find people to train with who possess hardened, experiential perspectives that appeal to my twisted preferences. One of my profs was a spec ops fellow in Viet Nam, and after. Lotsa good experience to bring to the table. I've managed to land with folks like this over the years. Currently, my training buddy is a retired SEAL who saw duty in Panama, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and others. Not an amateur in CQB. We have both been impressed by the knifework of a fellow whos stuff has seen action in the deserts; very impressive gent (picture Parker whipping out techs, but they are knife combo's). I will weigh thier opinions more heavily around what works in certain scenarios because of stuff they have seen. They may not be right. Objectively, they may have some glaring errors in approach or reasoning. Subjectively, though, their techs and errors have combined successfully enough with luck to allow us to gather on the same mat to discuss these things.

Objectively, a comprehensive self-defense system ought to have a solution they explore in preparation for a concievable assault. Likely, or unlikely. Note: Chapel says he thinks it's impossible, but he offers a SD tech/solution anyway. My experience of him as a professor is that he's not apt to waste time on something he considers completely useless. I consider the kenpoo techs for the rear full nelson weak, the attack flawed, but still make sure I drill my "assertive spasticity" solution with all my people, because it isn't self-evident in the rush of brawling. And some rehearsal is necessary for success, IMO. So I still address it.

Mr. Slosek wrote:
"...if you're going to train, and the goal is SD, why wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible?"

I would argue that training to remove yourself from a completed nelson is planned failure, which is always a bad theme in training. Some guy starts shooting on you and going for position, do you wait to see where he's planning on going with it before you react, or do you react to your attacker & environemnt and respond to the already extant conditions at hand? Training to be as effective as possible would, to me, invole the idea of working to knock a guy out, or sprawl, or reverse the throw, or block the mount, or escape the mount, or reverse position, or block a hand as it snakes around your throat, or not give up your back, or any of a number of options that present themselves on the way to finding yourself in a rear choke with hooks in...as opposed to working kenpo techniques against a completed rear choke,. If you find yourself there, the technology in your SD tech's that has failed you up to this point won't all at once kick in and provide you brilliant success from within a completed assault.

Sam ting with the nelson. You have all of the fighting ranges available to you that had to get worked through before he had a completed, unlikely control manipulation on you. He likely lobbed a puch at your head on the way in; or shot to a shoulder grab, arm control, or bearhug while transitioning to the nelson attempt; perhaps he approached from "the dark". He probably would be forced to get one arm at a time, giving you ample time to respond. Or, he's trying to slip both arms up and under your armpits, magically unnoticed as his fingers slip behind your neck and interlace. But you have no inclination he's there until he's got the hold completely on, and is compelling you downward? Nah. Plenty of opportunity to respond before this point. If you've let things get so bad that Scraping Hoof is your only remaining option, you suck at fighting and deserve to get tooled in the nelson.

2 scenarios I can foresee that might find you in a completed nelson, and you're screwed in each.

1. Bad guy holds you or loved one at gunpoint while his accomplice places you in it. Bad News = your or your loved one are still at gunpoint, regardless of your twicksy kenpo.

2. You've been in a brawl with multiples, and while messing with a couple of the first bad guys, a 3rd or 4th slips into the dogpile and goes for this, which you don't notice because of the melee chaos, so you find yourself in it, helpless. Bad News = if your losing this badly against multiples, you were going to lose, and were already losing, anyway...this is just a new nail in an already seconds-old coffin. He or his buddies were in the middle of beating the piss out of you in the first place for you not to see it coming.

To be as effective as possible in self-defense would include environmental awareness to see it coming and block it, just like we do when we raise a knee into the guys ribs to prevent him from mounting us from side-mount. It would also include knwledge of structural integrity issues that work for or against you in relative positions, and the ability to use this information to prevent your opponent from destabilizing your neuro-mechanical congruency (have your buddy place you in a full neslon, then try to force you over or down. Push both of your palms into your forehead, while activelt pushing your forehead forward into the palms. Let me know how well the nelson works). NOT just worst-case scenario planning. Otherwise, we'd be learning re-writes of some idiot version of Wings of Silk as a defense against being rear-mounted and choked in Mata Leon. Or is that in Form 4 somewhere?

Be good and train sensibly,

Dave

Dave, as always, a detailed reply. Now, when you mentioned your friends who have alot of knife work, I tend to agree with that. Thats one of the reasons I personally favor the FMAs over other things when it comes to blade and stick work. These guys do it all the time, so why not train with someone whos art comes from a culture where blades are commonplace? The same for ground work. If I want to learn ground defense, be it submissions or some basics, I'm going to lean towards BJJ. Of course, we're all different, so someone may disagree with my analogy, which is fine. What I find beneficial, may not be to them.

Now you mentioned how Doc teaches a defense for the full nelson, and quoted a portion of what I said. For reference, my post here:

I'm getting the impression that the line of thinking should be, "The odds of this happening are so small, I don't need to train for it." My next question: Its seems like Parker taught certain things for those "commercial" dojos, with less than a handful being taught things more 'effective' things. So one would think or at least this is what I'm thinking...that if you're going to train, and the goal is SD, why wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible?

It seems like Parker taught things to those 'commercial' minded people differently than he taught others, such as Doc. My question is two fold.

1) Why not teach everyone the same? If one move is more effective than the other, why not teach the more effective one? Thats what I meant by wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible.

2) You stated that Doc teaches a defense for the nelson. What is that defense like and how does it compare to what one would see in those 'commercial' schools?

Now of course you would want to begin your defense before the hold is applied. I agree. I know somewhere on here, theres been discussion of Delayed Sword as a defense against a grab and a punch. If I see a hand coming towards me, I don't care if its a push, punch or an attempted grab, I'm going to react ASAP. But we still train punch defense and grab defense, which in essence is the worst case right? I mean, we've been grabbed, so we need to escape from that grab, no? I train defense against a double and single leg takedown and I also will put myself on the bottom in side mount from the start, and work from there.

I hope this made sense.

Mike

 

[SL4Drew]

For the purpose of discussing the "impossible"

3:00 mark.

Note: Very conscious and very non-compliant. Also skilled at and knowledgeable of countering this type of move as this is Olympic Level.

Sure, if you change the parameters of the attack, the environment, available defenses, available offenses, and impose "rules" the attack is likely...

But none has ever put me in a far-ankle cradle outside of a wrestling match...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

If you're a pacifist, yes. Or maybe it's just a case of the Dirty Harry line about a good man knowing his limitations. The irony of someone who has never had to use their stuff telling old battle cruisers about combat prep is...

I still hold to it being impossible against an even mildly informed defender, or even just a spastically resisting street punk. The wrestler is taught to use wrestling, not martial arts. It's a competition for positional dominance, and often lacks any structural shoring in transition or response; it certainly lacks opportunity for most of what's great in what we do in kenpo or jujutsu. I don't consider this athlete getting topped by another athlete as proof of this being a viable attack requiring studied defense. 5 minutes is all I need to show a person how not to get caught in this...and that will be plugging them into their own spasticity, not spent reiewing some deep, arcane kenpo wisdom. Not years of repetition on unecessarily complex choreography agaiunst unlikely attacks.

And the name of the thread is "An attack that MAY NEVER happen." May is not a definitive. Last I checked, I was still replying in this thread.

I still say "bah!" to full nelson defenses, and can't help but look sideways at folks who find themselves in one...be they wrestlers, karateka, kenpoists, or just plain drunk brawlers. Awake and in a mood, you just should never find yourself there. Wrestling rules forbid spastic writhing and twirling, followed by a pop in the mouth.

I like Long 3 as a thematic form, but unfortunately it has some nelson stuff in it, and that ridiculous Silk tech. Take a random guess at how often I expect to find myself needing to use Wings of Silk? And, yes...I have stopped practicing it. I'd rather put that time in on the heavy bag. Along with the time spent on Scraping Hoof and the other nelson kids.

D.

Doc explicitly stated that it was anatomically IMPOSSIBLE, meaning could NEVER happen. My personal experiences and observations contradict that, so as much as I love to agree with Doc, on this one I have seen and felt different. You spun it into what is "likely" which is 'Apples and Oranges'. And I guess I'll be standing on the wall while you look sideways at me. So be it....but it doesn't change the difference between possibility and probability. I guess I was even less then mildly informed then....but informed enough to get out of it and make street pizza out of the guy. You also state that you could show someone how not to be caugh in it in 5 minutes. Doc stated that the intrinsic qualities of the body's natural defenses would take care of it...unless the person is semi-conscious....of which my personal life again flatly states otherwise....and I'm far from the 'common slouch'.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Sure, if you change the parameters of the attack, the environment, available defenses, available offenses, and impose "rules" the attack is likely...

But none has ever put me in a far-ankle cradle outside of a wrestling match...

"Likely" has jack poo to do with what was expressly stated as "impossible". Parameters cannot change impossibility by the very definition of impossible...and all the explaining and trying to change impossible to improbable won't help either.

Salute.