An Attack That May Never Happen

[kenpo_guy]

Dr. Dave

I have read your posts for quite some time now, I must say that you make so much sense that sometimes when you make it sound so easy people just say HUH? I wanted to continue with a point that you have made about rank advancement in Kenpo. When I first started Kenpo I was told you want xth Degree go to college, you want to learn how to fight and be a Black Belt then train here. Our school was a backyard school, I trained there for 8 years and we were all 18-23 when we started. Training was physical and I learned how our techniques really worked by having them done on me. Sparring was always in all ranges: striking, clinching, and ground grappling. I wrestled in high school and two years in college, thought I was pretty hot stuff until I got kicked in the nuts about hundred times and could never take or hold down my Sifu in any position, so I just got the hell punched and kicked out of me. I also learned Chin Na such as grabbing to seperate muscle and tendon, this really hurts and makes it difficult when in grappling range trying to take someone down. We worked judo throws, naked chokes, scarf holds, and the like. I think that once you have graduated from our school its more about how you maintain and refine your skill sets. In athletics you are either a "coach" or not. Your performance, the way you carry yourself and your program, your athletes performance are what set you apart from your peers. Those peers are the ones that determine your "rank" or status within the community, sounds kinds like the old school way in the MA community. One you become a Sifu its entirely up to decide if yhou will be a GOOD or BAD Sifu. Although you may never gain "rank" in Kenpo again you already have by continuing the training and refining your skills to pass on to the ones who really matter your students. Those around you that really KNOW recognize you for that. I realize that you do not need the validation of some random guy who has only been in it for half the time and signifincantly less experience than you have, but I wanted to throw out my .02. Thank you for all of your posts, I have learned much.
Salute, Tony

 

[DavidCC]

As a kenpo black belt on a life-long journey, it means I will never see a promotion again. I have abandoned the core cirriculum around which promotions take place, and there is no Senior in front of whom I could test and have what I do recognized. Enjoy,

Dave

Time to get a couple of protegees, think up an acronym, and design a patch. :cheers: You are wasting time, Dr. Dave, how long do you think it will take to teach all you have to teach? Better get started my friend.

 

[MJS]

I think that given the number of people that have wrestling experience, and the popularity of MMA, the possibility of someone trying to take you down is higher then it was 10 years ago.

People fight how they are trained to, and if there is no training they fight the way they have seen others do so. Right now MMA is going to be the model used, where as a few years ago it would have been boxing, martial arts movies or hockey (all striking)

"Ground and Pound" is something that will seem like a good strategy to someone without any experience now, that is something fairly new in terms of what "the masses" would consider a good fight strategy.

Well Andrew, lately there has been alot of agreeing going on, and by the looks of this post, the agreeing is going to continue!! I agree 100% with this post!!:ultracool

The UFC brought alot into the mix, so as you said, the odds of someone having some sort of grappling background is pretty high!!

Mike

 

[MA-Caver]

If I am repeating something that someone else here has said then I'll apologize in advance... but with so many lengthy replies I just decided to reply to the intial post and go from there.

Not being a Kempoist or even a Kenpoist I still like to put in my input. For what ever it's worth :uhyeah:

For a few years I was another MT-er's favorite at home practice "uke" as she worked her way up her current belt of 2nd Brown from a blue (EPAK). Applying my own knowledge of various MA and my own experiences of various types of attacks (upon my own person and witnessing others) I too began to wonder why so many techniques (with that art) for the same basic attack.
As time went on and the number of moves per technique increased per belt I could gradually see the wisdom of SGM Parker's creation and application of these various techniques. Now the only similarites that I have with GM Parker is that he and I were real-world-street fighters in our younger days.
On the street you're never going to be guaranteed that everyone is going to punch, kick, use a "club", knife or even a gun in the same way. As time goes on and the higher your ranking belt gets this will become evident that the ability to have instantaneous adaptation to the immediate ever changing circumstances/situation is a high priority. You may be right in the middle of a tech when your attacker/opponent doesn't react in the manner prescribed. Some guys you can give them that hard knuckle-fisted punch square in their solar-plexus and they'll fold right over and you can walk away, others will take the exact same punch (at your full power) and just be standing there smiling at you. Ohh-kay, that didn't work lets try THIS!
A Kenpoist explained to me this way: "GM Parker was a genius in that he viewed the human body as a paper-clip. Keep bending the paper-clip back down and back up again and again and eventually it'll break." (or something like that... it's been a few years).

I've been in situations to where everything SHOULD'VE worked; catch the guy's punch and twist under it and bring him to my shoulder for a nice roll-over throw... umm nope, seems he was ready for that particular move or just managed to plant his weight just right... so stomp on his foot and rake his shin and reach behind me with my free hand and give the ole sac a good yank. There! That done it.

We hope we'll never be attacked but having that awareness and expecting the unexpected and being prepared for the unexpected will go a long way and bring alllll that training to fruition. :asian:

 

[thardey]

Without meaning to step on anybody's toes, I ran across the original question from the main page, and I had a thought that may have been touched on, but I think is important, and should be expanded.

I think it is important to spend most of your time dealing with a left-foot forward one-two attack, since the majority of the people will attack with a right-hand strong boxing type attack first, even if they plan on going to the ground later. You should also spend some time training against left-handed attacks, since there are fewer left-handers, but still a substantial amount.

Less time for purely kicking attacks, grappling, etc, proportionate to how many people are likely to throw those attacks.

But -- here's the deal breaker.

In my training, I like to think "What's the last thing this guy expects me to do, that's still viable?" I think most people who spend time training think the same way. If I have to fight a boxer, I'll pretend to box, and then kick him in the knee -- that sort of thing. If I end up on the ground with a high school wrester, I'll let him spend his energy taking me to my back, but keep a hand free to poke his eyes (or, in the case of a "frendly" wresting match with my buddy, I let him "pin" me, then casually reached to his throat and pinched he let go right now!)

So if I hear of an attack that nobody trains for because it "never happens" guess what attack I'll be learning? The attack that nobody's trained to deal with!

So we have to keep training against these attacks, because people are always looking for "blind spots" -- that's how martial culture changes through time and geography. We just need to keep them in perspective.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Time to get a couple of protegees, think up an acronym, and design a patch. :cheers: You are wasting time, Dr. Dave, how long do you think it will take to teach all you have to teach? Better get started my friend.

I still have too much to learn. One lifetime is not enough.

And to be fair to the kenpo purists, I have to say that there are guys out there who can make some unlikely chit work. Techniques I'll have abandoned as pointless, guys like Mr. Hale will make me look silly by turning me upside down with them, or bring them to life by pointing out something I've missed for 35 years like an idiot. But it still seems, to me, that there are an awful lot of approaches not accounted for in the core kenpo cirriculum that need to be, as well as lots of stuff that is accounted for that's unnecessary puff stuff.

Moreover, there are "progressive" kenpoists like Mr. Chape'l (yes, Doc, I try your experiments even when nobody else is listening) who continue to amaze and teach me by providing clean-ups and vital tweaks to cause a kenpo tech to own the attackers hide despite various resistances. But my question/criticism always returns to this: How many kenpo clubs are out there? By contrast, in how many of them does one regularly get on the mat with the greats and near greats? I've been lucky, with immediate access over several years to some of kenpo's bets, and I still haven't scratched the surface.

As an obsessive kenpo hobbyist in this for life, I will always be out to learn the next kewl way to clean up my kenpo. Some of that I'll pass on to my future long-term students, as I use their longevity to meter their interest. But for the vast bulk of students I get, I'm gonna stick to simple stuff that works well, most of the time.

D.

 

[D.Cobb]

When I was learning EPAK, I was taught that the techniques were not that important... It was the principles behind them that counts. When the question arose as to why so many defenses for each attack, the reason was that each new technique was designed to add to the principles learnt in the preceding tech.

--Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

When I was learning EPAK, I was taught that the techniques were not that important... It was the principles behind them that counts. When the question arose as to why so many defenses for each attack, the reason was that each new technique was designed to add to the principles learnt in the preceding tech.

--Dave

And that is the purpose of kenpo. Techniques are not meant to be actual responses, in my book. Rather, they are meant to be plausible fictions that serve as the context for a lesson. They are the chalk and blackboard, not the lessons themselves.

But you would be surprised how many times I've been in keyboard-kenpo arguments with guys on these threads, because they're insisting that some dude should have used Grasp of Death instead of Grip of Death, because of how the attacker was standing or some such silliness. My reply is typically: No, you should have hit the guy with what was available to you, and kept on hitting him until he was no longer moving. The weapons and options available from any given position have been taught to you in the techniques, so use them.

D.

 

[Joe Shuras]

I agree with Mr Bishop ad Flying Crane.
I do not believe that one should discard all techniques that do not work well for you or that you do not personally like because,
1) We all change with age, something that works really well when you are young might not when you are older,
2) Most of us from time to time will be in different geographical locations. Ex. fast footwork is hard to do on a snowy surface,
3) Your best moves will not work against all the different types of fighters,
4) As you become more experienced and skilled sometimes those moves that do not work well for you now will, in time, become your best moves.
Have fun training,
:ultracool

I agree with John Bishop, Flying Crane and Al C. I believe we are all on the same page, gentlemen. I always use this analogy to get across my point. We may all go to the same restuarant for dinner, let's say the four of us here. We're given a menu of dinner choices, all prepared by the same chef at the same restuarant, yet, we may all choose something different. However, we picked what suited our indivivdual and personal tastes. An instructor has to broaden his perspective of currciulum and becareful of what he discards because as the saying goes; One man's trash is another man's treasure. What works for me, my body style and attributes may not work for you, and vice-versa or as Ed Parker stated: Every Kenpo black belt is a style within themselves. This fits all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems imho. - Joe

 

[Joe Shuras]

And that is the purpose of kenpo. Techniques are not meant to be actual responses, in my book. Rather, they are meant to be plausible fictions that serve as the context for a lesson. They are the chalk and blackboard, not the lessons themselves.

But you would be surprised how many times I've been in keyboard-kenpo arguments with guys on these threads, because they're insisting that some dude should have used Grasp of Death instead of Grip of Death, because of how the attacker was standing or some such silliness. My reply is typically: No, you should have hit the guy with what was available to you, and kept on hitting him until he was no longer moving. The weapons and options available from any given position have been taught to you in the techniques, so use them.

D.

Dave, you make some excellent points and I couldn't agree more. I came upon this post this morning on San Jose Kenpo forum. You're comments would be appreciated.

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[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]Return to Forum [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]Interesting, VERY Interesting!

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]April 5 2007 at 1:52 PM[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet] Mills Crenshaw Mills Crenshaw (Login MillsCrenshaw)
from IP address 72.25.160.238[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet]The pressures of work have kept me from following the discussion threads for some time. Much to my surprise, on returning, I find an “intellectual” discussion (argument?) over how many techniques can be removed from Kenpo before it ceases to be Kenpo; and whether the “slaps,” so called, are necessary.

Forgive me for being blunt but it reminds me of the arguments between theologians about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I’m just a poor country boy. All I know about Kenpo is what I learned from my friend and teacher Ed Parker; and from efforts to think creatively as he taught us all to do. If I contradict some of the pronouncements of more exalted Masters, Grand Masters, Wizards and Grand Poo-Baughs, please forgive me...after all, I’m a mere mortal.

Kenpo, as I was taught, is not just a collection of techniques with colorful names. It is, instead, a way of looking at real and potential threats and disposing of those threats with devastating and overwhelming force. The body must be trained to act on the brain’s instinctive recognition of those threats; but it is that mind-body linkage more than a specific group of techniques that is the core of Kenpo. Put 80% of the techniques you have learned in the waste basket and a Kenpo trained mind would still respond effectively to a new, previously unpracticed attack. Basic skills are part of that core. Blocks, secondary blocks, counters, strikes, kicks, footwork...all must be mastered so that the mind-body linkage becomes a formidable weapon. It is mastery of these basic skills that forges the link between mind and body. Take away that link and it is no longer Kenpo. No matter the nomenclature, techniques are merely a collection of pre-programmed responses to specific threats. The forms are catalogues of those techniques—but Kenpo is the threat perception skill-set, together with the mind-body automatic response to those threats, more than the collection of techniques. Let me illustrate the concept this way. If a savant, with a photographic memory, were able to memorize every technique ever taught by all the black belt instructors who ever lived, would that body of knowledge be kenpo? No! Why? Because if his mind was incapable of perceiving the threat and his body unable to automatically react to the threat he would be helpless in spite of his knowledge. That is NOT Kenpo. The total skill, not inapplicable knowledge, is the essence of Kenpo. But then, that’s just what I’ve been taught and what I’ve perceived through the years.

The most troubling set of discussions are those concerning the “SLAPS.” Showmanship? Unnecessary? Slaps? Friends, I don’t know where you learned Kenpo or who’s been talking with you; but those comments demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of basic Kenpo theory and combat reality. Ed Parker developed a system of secondary BLOCKS out of the realization that even the most skilled combatant can be faked out of position by a skilled opponent. When making a block or strike, a properly trained Kenpo warrior will make a secondary block protecting that area of the body left exposed by the primary block or strike. A block in mid air is weak and can be driven back into your body. (Put that to the test. Make a right inward block and put your open left hand in front of your face as a secondary block. Have another student throw a hard punch into that open hand. Most of the time you’ll find yourself with a face full of fist.) If, however, as you make that secondary block you drive the heal of your left hand into your right biceps, you will find the secondary block is solid and will withstand a very powerful punch. The popping sound of that secondary block anchoring itself to your biceps will only be described as a “slap” by the untrained or ill-informed. Sometimes the secondary block is made in a “wiping” motion that hooks the oncoming punch and slams it to the protecting arm or shoulder. (With a popping sound, yes, but it sure as heck isn't a "slap") Powerful secondary blocks, firmly anchored against the body, are such a basic part of an Ed Parker trained warrior that if those secondary blocks are missing it is a telling sign of a poorly trained pretender. But then, that’s just one country boy’s opinion.

Cordially,
Mills Crenshaw

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[Flying Crane]

I agree with John Bishop, Flying Crane and Al C. I believe we are all on the same page, gentlemen. I always use this analogy to get across my point. We may all go to the same restuarant for dinner, let's say the four of us here. We're given a menu of dinner choices, all prepared by the same chef at the same restuarant, yet, we may all choose something different. However, we picked what suited our indivivdual and personal tastes. An instructor has to broaden his perspective of currciulum and becareful of what he discards because as the saying goes; One man's trash is another man's treasure. What works for me, my body style and attributes may not work for you, and vice-versa or as Ed Parker stated: Every Kenpo black belt is a style within themselves. This fits all the Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems imho. - Joe

I think maybe the topic has shifted a little from MJS' initial intention. I think rather than looking at why we have so many defenses against similar attacks (sorry, that was really my own digression in the beginning of the thread), what he is really looking at is, are some attacks really so highly unlikely that it is simply a waste of time to prepare for them?

Some people believe certain stylized attacks are impossible to actually carry out in the real world. If this is actually true, then it is kind of a waste of time to prepare for them. I guess not everyone believes that it's true. What one person believes will never happen, or could never happen, another person believes could happen and might happen. I guess you need to satisfy yourself about the possibility of a certain type of attack happening and being successful. If you think it could happen, then you should prepare for it. If not, then don't.

 

[Doc]

Some people believe certain stylized attacks are impossible to actually carry out in the real world. If this is actually true, then it is kind of a waste of time to prepare for them. I guess not everyone believes that it's true. What one person believes will never happen, or could never happen, another person believes could happen and might happen. I guess you need to satisfy yourself about the possibility of a certain type of attack happening and being successful. If you think it could happen, then you should prepare for it. If not, then don't.

Of course you're correct. It is a matter of prioritization based on personal preferences. This is the Kenpo desease that infects the commercial system that turns everyone, regardless of knowledge or skill set into a designer of his own style. I've seen raw beginners to so-called experts expressing themeselves as to how they think a technique should be done.

The idea of tailoring and rearranging along with other "designer" concepts is what has made the commercial system popular. Anybody may do anything that suits them, and as long as the individual is satisfied with their performance, its fine. Kinda learn the forms and sets so you can test, and then tossem'. Understand them? Unnecessary. Make them actually work? Who cares. Give them some more stuff to "perform" so they can get another rank. That is where all the fluff and crap material comes from.

Now the base system itself, is not as bad as it sounds, but too many of those that call themselves teachers are. It is a business that feeds upon itself, and contridicts on some level its reason for existing. The balancing act between making money and turning out reasonably skilled martial artist is difficult for the most adept teachers. For the bulk of the less than competent, it isn't even possible, and profit is the driving force.

This contridiction has driven Mr. Parker's idea of what should be a functioning albeit commercial system into the ground. The bar is set so low, the idea of what is and looks good is virtually dysfuctional. Most don't know the simplest of basics, but can roll, jump, wirl, yell, and stomp with enthusiasm, while wearing uniforms with enough patches to shame a Nascar driver, and be awarded rank.

As I said earlier the "full nelson" attack is anatomically impossible and I stand by that statement, but I still teach the counter-mechanics because they are important, and reinforce other themes inherent in the system as I teach it. My students know the attack itself is dysfuctional, but they love what they learn from exploring their own body mechanics AND how they fuction in other attacks that ARE more likely to happen.

Therefore ALL the bases are covered. Exposed to an improbable situation, but putting it in proper perspective. Learning the relative function of the inherent body mechanics, without having them tied exclusively to a dysfuctional technique scenario. And lastly and least important, if the heavens split open and Bruce Lee himself is resurrected to seek one of them out and attack them with a full nelson, they'll be ready.

I teach a highly functional A-to-Z system. Students learn what I have to teach, not what they want to learn, unless they agree with the system. When I'm through with them, they can do whatever they want and rearrange, tailor, delete and insert to their hearts content. I have one problem - I can't make any money or get rid of any of them.

 

[kidswarrior]

As I said earlier the "full nelson" attack is anatomically impossible and I stand by that statement, but I still teach the counter-mechanics because they are important, and reinforce other themes inherent in the system as I teach it. My students know the attack itself is dysfuctional, but they love what they learn from exploring their own body mechanics AND how they fuction in other attacks that ARE more likely to happen.

Therefore ALL the bases are covered. Exposed to an improbable situation, but putting it in proper perspective. Learning the relative function of the inherent body mechanics, without having them tied exclusively to a dysfuctional technique scenario. And lastly and least important, if the heavens split open and Bruce Lee himself is resurrected to seek one of them out and attack them with a full nelson, they'll be ready.

I teach a highly functional A-to-Z system. Students learn what I have to teach, not what they want to learn, unless they agree with the system. When I'm through with them, they can do whatever they want and rearrange, tailor, delete and insert to their hearts content. I have one problem - I can't make any money or get rid of any of them.

Doc, you're one of a kind, sir. Really appreciate your take on things.

 

[cubankenpo]

Hi bros
When u train , ur preparing yourself against many situations, we know some things which we use in our style need a little changes cause they are old, but u have to adapt them to our times, and to us , some people like grappling more than kicks or punch but it doesnt mean kicks and punch are not important,
u have to b a step ahead from the present, u have to train situation non happen , your brain must know the situation before happen, , thats why we train diferent situation in diferent places
Joe

 

[Flying Crane]

As I said earlier the "full nelson" attack is anatomically impossible and I stand by that statement, but I still teach the counter-mechanics because they are important, and reinforce other themes inherent in the system as I teach it. My students know the attack itself is dysfuctional, but they love what they learn from exploring their own body mechanics AND how they fuction in other attacks that ARE more likely to happen.

Therefore ALL the bases are covered. Exposed to an improbable situation, but putting it in proper perspective. Learning the relative function of the inherent body mechanics, without having them tied exclusively to a dysfuctional technique scenario. And lastly and least important, if the heavens split open and Bruce Lee himself is resurrected to seek one of them out and attack them with a full nelson, they'll be ready.

I certainly understand and appreciate your position with regard to the full nelson. I think the reality is that not everyone agrees with it, as it all comes down to personal experience and personal perspective, which may or may not be accurate. If I recall correctly, I think someone else in that other discussion mentioned having seen it done for real, or maybe it was done on him for real. Maybe I don't remember that correctly. But at any rate, different people have different opinions on it, maybe you think their idea is foolish, maybe they think yours is foolish

.

At any rate, if someone chooses to believe the attack is viable, then they should practice a viable defense against it. Whatever their solution to the attack, it should be well-thought out and effective. The reality may be that they will never have a reason to ever use it, but at least they are practiceing a defense that works and makes sense, built upon solid ideas and skills.

I might decide that an attack with a longbow at 50 paces is viable and realistic. So maybe I practice diving and rolling quickly behind whatever cover might be available, and making myself a difficult target. To believe an attack like that might actually happen is sort of foolish in today's day and age. But at least my response to that attack does make sense. What else would you do if someone started shooting arrows at you? And maybe those skills I develop just might come in handy in some other way, even if I never need to use them to dodge arrows.

Kind of similar to your second paragraph that I quoted here.

By the way, I'd be curious to hear what other attacks we have defenses for, that you feel the attack itself is improbably or impossible.

 

[LawDog]

I have personally seen a"full nelson"attack done. Around 1984 - 86 I was working a detail inside one of our local "biker bars", it was called the Steer Club. A fight between two rival groups developed, I called for backup. A short time later the first officer arrived and entered the building and just for a moment I looked away, when I looked back a large biker had the backup officer in a full nelson. It took several double handed thrusting blows with the steel ball end of my baton into the bikers shoulder blade area to get him to release.
Nothing is impossible if a situation arises that will allow it to occur.

 

[Doc]

I have personally seen a"full nelson"attack done. Around 1984 - 86 I was working a detail inside one of our local "biker bars", it was called the Steer Club. A fight between two rival groups developed, I called for backup. A short time later the first officer arrived and entered the building and just for a moment I looked away, when I looked back a large biker had the backup officer in a full nelson. It took several double handed thrusting blows with the steel ball end of my baton into the bikers shoulder blade area to get him to release.
Nothing is impossible if a situation arises that will allow it to occur.

I might add I qualified my "impossible" comment in the original reply. I grew up in, and worked South Central Los Angeles and Compton for decades, so I've seen my share as well. I also note you had to go back a couple of decades to a biker bar to find an example. For the bulk of the people, that's a huge improbability exclusive of the anatomical restrictions. Of course you can put any hold on anyone who's borderline conscious.

 

[LawDog]

Doc,
My backup was not border line conscious when the biker got him, though the biker was later on.
It matters not if it was a decade ago or yesterday the fact is that it happened.
Doc, from what you have said I am wondering if were/are you a L.E.O.? Were you a street cop?

 

[Doc]

Doc,
My backup was not border line conscious when the biker got him, though the biker was later on.
It matters not if it was a decade ago or yesterday the fact is that it happened.
Doc, from what you have said I am wondering if were/are you a L.E.O.? Were you a street cop?

35 years, and until I can sell at least one daughter, still counting.

 

[SL4Drew]

I have one problem - I can't make any money or get rid of any of them.

Who? What? Did someone say something? :jaws: