An Attack That May Never Happen

[Doc]

1) There is even one noted instructor who claims that Delayed Sword will not work against a punch....yeah....ok...I didn't get that memo.

Neither did I. Another suggests the "vertical block" is useless so I guess we all just have to get together and do show and tell dog. I suspect there is some truth in all perspectives.

 

[SL4Drew]

Well, seeing that this discussion at this time is focused on the Full Nelson, may as well continue along those lines. This thread was spun from the Repeated Devestation thread. However, we can discuss any technique and/or attack that is deemed 'impossible.' In this post I had asked two questions. For the sake of the discussion, I'd be interested in hearing the answers to those questions.

Mike

From your other post:

1) Why not teach everyone the same? If one move is more effective than the other, why not teach the more effective one? Thats what I meant by wouldn't you want to be as effective as possible.


My response:

I would say that is a function of A LOT of things. The student's interest, focus, and desire are a big part. And being an instructor of a commercial school brings with it additional considerations. Every time you change the material you inevitably lose students. So if effectiveness is your paramount concern, yes you might jettison less effective material. But if instead the bottom line is you concern, then you will be very slow to change--at least the material you teach to your paying students. Never mind some people are unwilling to change.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'm with ya, drew.

For #1: You cannot teach everyone to the same quality for two reasons...capacity, and willingness. Capacity: Can't get 20 gallons in a ten gallon bucket. And, as un-PC as it is to say, not everyone is built with the same intelligences. Willingness: The better something works, in general, the more it hurts to train. Not that many soccer mom families out there willing to get down and dirty with the PD, spec-ops, bruisers, etc. So you have to have 2 versions of what you teach: Open door, and closed door. One pays the light bills, the other keeps your interest in the arts for years to come.

2. I forget. I think it was a question about nelson stuff. Mandela, maybe. OK; I got it. The bulk of the nelson techs (take the 3 most common in order to be taught) rely on pain and shock, not mechanical advantage. The second of the two has some mechanical efficacy to it, but #1 and #3 rely on the guy responding to being popped and loosening his grip. What if adrenal dump over-rides pain reception? I'm having a time of it with a new training podnah, ...old SEAL, feels no pain. The way he knows he's standing in a fire is by the smell of his cooking feet. So pain compliance techs are out. Luckily, Doc has provided nelson solutions that are structurally based, and break down the integrity of the bad guy while shoring up your own, and allow you some better "how to" to break the hold.

Banging in drills with an old spook who doesn't feel owie's is a treat, but requires a willingness to get beat up along the way yourself; he may not feel pain, but knows when his melon's been shaken, and is quick to return the favor. Each session ends with me hobbling home, bruised like a mammy-jammer. I'm diggin it, and will keep showing up to train until I can't, because of that whole "weakness leaving the body" thang. Nights in Torrance on the SL-4 mat are akin to 40 to 60 low-speed car accidents each session -- having your skeleton rattled around by techs that target structural penetration, with you being the one getting hit. All night, several nights a week, Docs guys show up to ring each others melons in a quest for mastering what works. Not many out there are going to choose to capitalize on an opportunity to train in pain; to get home late to a handful of advil. This, principally, is why you cannot teach everybody to the same standard. Capacity, and Willingness.

Be good,

Dr. Dave

 

[DavidCC]

I'd like to resurrect this old thread by posting a picture of someone doing a full nelson in Doc Chapel's school

from the amazing collection of photos the Ed Parker Jr posted at
http://americankenpoforum.com/photos/epj/picture1111.aspx

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'd like to resurrect this old thread by posting a picture of someone doing a full nelson in Doc Chapel's school

from the amazing collection of photos the Ed Parker Jr posted at
http://americankenpoforum.com/photos/epj/picture1111.aspx

Looks like the "hand on forehead" position mentioned earlier that renders the nelson next to impossible to complete.

 

[LawDog]

In this photograph the full nelson is not being applied correctly. The attacker usually will lower himself so that, when reaching up from under the arms he can reach up higher behind the head. This attacker should have his hands up higher along the base of the skill, this will give the attacker more leverage to force his opponents chin down against the chest area, )for the choke). This attacker is standing straight up, his hips should be bent forward, this will force his opponent back over his heels, breaking his balance.
Pressure being applied to the back of the head does not come from your wrists alone. You should use the contact point where your arms and your opponents armpits meet as a pivot point, torque your torso back, lifting your elbows upward and at the same time rolling your forarms forward and down. Now your whole body goes into the lock.
This is just my observation of this photograph, not the entire thread subject.

 

[Ray]

Another suggests the "vertical block" is useless so I guess we all just have to get together and do show and tell dog. I suspect there is some truth in all perspectives.

Oddly enough when I mentioned the thought: "a vertical outward block is not cocked nor ready to strike" to a 12 year old yellow belt student, she said "yah, but this is how my arm is before I do that downward elbow in Crossing Talons."

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

In this photograph the full nelson is not being applied correctly. The attacker usually will lower himself so that, when reaching up from under the arms he can reach up higher behind the head. This attacker should have his hands up higher along the base of the skill, this will give the attacker more leverage to force his opponents chin down against the chest area, )for the choke). This attacker is standing straight up, his hips should be bent forward, this will force his opponent back over his heels, breaking his balance.
Pressure being applied to the back of the head does not come from your wrists alone. You should use the contact point where your arms and your opponents armpits meet as a pivot point, torque your torso back, lifting your elbows upward and at the same time rolling your forarms forward and down. Now your whole body goes into the lock.
This is just my observation of this photograph, not the entire thread subject.

Sounds like Ju Jitsu

 

[Doc]

In this photograph the full nelson is not being applied correctly. The attacker usually will lower himself so that, when reaching up from under the arms he can reach up higher behind the head. This attacker should have his hands up higher along the base of the skill, this will give the attacker more leverage to force his opponents chin down against the chest area, )for the choke). This attacker is standing straight up, his hips should be bent forward, this will force his opponent back over his heels, breaking his balance.

You're correct, except the attack was not attempted in this photo. It was in the midst of a discussion. A person to attack has to do exactly what you described, and in the process he misaligns himself, and makes himself susceptable to the mechanisms that will cancel his action.

The counter that we use was derived in discussions and teachings with my teacher, and his friend and consult Gene LeBell, and was echoed by Wally Jay. Although my teacher Ed Parker is no longer with us, the other 2 gentlemen are still around, and I'm sure available for consultation for anyone significantly curious about their perspective. Additionally, we have an ongoing relationhip with our MSU School of Mushin Ryu Jiujitsu, whose head is ranked at 7th in Danzan Ryu, and 9th in Mushin Ryu Jiujitsu.

Each of the automomous schools of the MSU regularly consult with each other to insure the efficacy of all aspects of curriculum, that include; W.A.R. (Withing Arms Reach), Pukulan Kilat Silat, and Danzan Ryu Jiujitsu. This in conjuction with my personal ongoing relationships with various seniors and masters in their various arts, including Gene Lebell.

I've given my opinion of the subject that is reflected in my associates views as well, and also explained why I still teach the attack.

 

[Doc]

Oddly enough when I mentioned the thought: "a vertical outward block is not cocked nor ready to strike" to a 12 year old yellow belt student, she said "yah, but this is how my arm is before I do that downward elbow in Crossing Talons."

It just proves there is wisdom even in the young (in the art) sir.