American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[pstarr]

I have to agree with Brother John...doing away with things as you've indicated could results in more and worse problems than you currently face-

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

There nothing you do with 10 Dans...that can't and already haven't been done with 5 Dans. It is less of a 'reduction' and more of a 'return' to the original state. Dan rank after 5th Dan serves no practical function...only political ones. At that level....rank should not be an issue to cooperation...nor a focus of participation. Thus...there really isn't a need for the other 5 Dans except to create more heirarchy...and more heirarchy for heirarchy sake is only supporting of ego and thus antithesis to physical reality and mental and spiritual development. The 'master craftsman' learns without being directed to, from many sources, and doesn't need to be rewarded. His reward is in the doing...not in the achievement.

The Emperor

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I have to agree with Brother John...doing away with things as you've indicated could results in more and worse problems than you currently face-

Error. You assume problems where none exist. Kasho MA have not nor are they currently suffering rank issue problems internally. Kasho's focus on the issue is more grass roots philosophy. Think more along the lines of a purposeful effort to encourage a paradigm shift away from 'more rank divisions' to 'few rank divisions' with more emphasis on 'excellance' and less over 'behavior modification modalities' as is the current trend among the commercial interests. It is easy to understand the business applications and wisdom of having more ranks, however, it also is not in the best interest of the arts globally with regard to their status as a medium to the highest forms of mental and spiritual development. If one mere focuses on the physical aspect alone...then rank certainly has no purpose, as is clearly proven in pugilistic contest throughout history. Victory goes to the practiced, the brave and the lucky.....not to the 'rankest'.

The Emperor

 

[Flatlander]

the listed link above is from a old website that is no longer current nor active by the individual who created it, who, btw, is not me, and is not the website of the International Tangsoodo Alliance.

Is this it, then? http://www.geocities.com/internationaltangsoodoalliance/

 

[Kasho]

Yes this is the correct board and it does have Phillip Suttle’s correct rank of 8th Dan but it apparently has not been updated to show JH’s lower rank. Mr.H is not in control of the board and cant make changes on it at will.

The 7th Dan was not issued by any of these men as he had said the person that awarded him this had never meet him much less every trained with him. This is why he didn’t accept this rank from this man or his large association.

Mr. Hancock maybe known by some of you as he is a former tournament champion, his writings have been published in Black Belt mag and I think TKD times? Authors and web boards list historical information based on his research and he is thought to be by many in this nation as one of the top authorities on Korean arts and more so in the field of TSD. He have served in the U.S. military and while doing so studied the arts while based in Korea. Before going over seas he had already received a first Dan in one art. He has been a MA instructor, tournament promoter, has provided instruction in workshops for other instructors and was president of the NTSDA changing it into an international alliance during his term. Mr. Hancock is a law enforcement officer and while being irreverent at times he bring dignity to the arts.

Now I personal don’t like saying nice things about the emperor but I thought it would save space on this board if I did it instead of letting him. lol

Okay I understand that some people here are trying to use smoke screens here to try to discredit people or to make feeble attempts to say that people here don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to rank, Please!

Agree with doing away with rank or not, but many here have been given a huge amount of information on rank. Who started it and then how it moved into karate and what the true meaning was for belts with its sport and administration purposes. Peoples names and dates a long with much historical fact on this subject. Many may also like to know that each belt color has been given meanings for each rank by most arts or associations like Purity for white belt.

There are also rumors on how the type of colors came to be or why you are not (legend) to wash your belt.

Think there is abuse with rank or not, Wish to help to do something about it or not, this subject and information is good for all to know, do with it what you will.

Take care,
Brad

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I really think what everyone is telling you is that do what you will in your own organization but do not try to force feed your idea or a solution that some people do not feel is necessary on everyone else. Not everyone will view your idea that 5th Dan should be the top in a rank structure. (it is just not going to happen) Yet, in your own organization that may be just what you need.

Good luck.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Brother John]

Agree with doing away with rank or not, but many here have been given a huge amount of information on rank. Who started it and then how it moved into karate and what the true meaning was for belts with its sport and administration purposes

There is lots to be learned about this subject, no doubt. But I'd think that your average MT member with at least more than 500 posts already knew this info. I know I did YEARS ago (OK....a couple decades, but who's counting)
also: I'd like to note that the original intent behind rank was more than just for sport and administration, it was also like a sign as to what an instructor could expect from a student...what level of knowledge/info etc. they could be expected to have. Like knowing that in my area of Kansas 3rd graders are working on three digit multiplication and second graders are not. Similar useage, as you said.....it originated from the school systems, was adopted and augmented by Kano Sensei and further altered by Funakoshi Sensei.....and then further down the road broadened/expanded by later instructors (sometimes to a very silly extent). But it doesn't change the fact that it's nothing more nor less than a measuring device, and a gernalized one at that.

Many may also like to know that each belt color has been given meanings for each rank by most arts or associations like Purity for white belt.

Different people have attributed different 'meanings' to the colors.
I feel this is arbitrary symbolic expression, and little more. If it lends a depth of purpose to what you wish to pass along to your students, GREAT. If not, a white belt is just a belt that happens to be white.
These symbolic associations to the belts is usually pretty unique from one tradition to another.

There are also rumors on how the type of colors came to be or why you are not (legend) to wash your belt.

It's very much oriental urban myth, and little more. There's that age old crap about a belt getting worn day after day until it's own dinginess becomes brown and then black...
...that's a load of bull-butter from way back! (sorry if that steps on anyones toes....but that's how it is)

Think there is abuse with rank or not, Wish to help to do something about it or not, this subject and information is good for all to know, do with it what you will.

There is abuse, I DO wish to have a positive influence on the trend of rank abuse....but I'll do so by NOT abusing it and by leading those who come to me down through the years to not make it then center, or even Close to the center, of their martial arts experience. Don't strive for the belt, but strive for what that belt represents, the Hard Work & excellence it requires. The belt is a sign, not the substance.
Reducing the number of ranks pre or post black belt will not address the issue of rank abuse. THat's like saying that I'll address the issue of alcohol abuse by limiting the number of brands of beer and wine that can be sold in my state....
won't keep those brands (or belts) that are left from being abused. It's treating the symptom instead of addressing the core cause.

KASHO: Please respond to my questions/post from before...

Kasho-

For me, it all boils down to this..
You are saying that you are reducing the number of belts in your system and reducing (IF I'm understanding you correctly) your "Dan" graded black belts to be simply "Black Belts" and "Instructor/Black Belts". IS that correct?

1st off, that's great. I see nothing wrong with it. It's YOUR system and Your schools.....do as you will.

But your rationale seems wrong. You've said that you want to reduce these ranks (maybe eventually do away with them entirely) in order to keep rank from being a focus and from being 'abused'.
Here's my beef: From what I've read you saying....the abuse that you're seeing is NOT coming from w/in your system or your school(s)....but from w/out. If it aint broke..........ya know..........don't fix it. If there's a mentality about rank in your school(s) and association that you don't like...well......you're the head of things: Change the mentality. If you just do away with rank, nobody learns the critical lesson of putting 'rank' into it's proper perspective.

can you help me understand your stance on this better?
Thanks

Your Brother
John

Your Brother
John :asian:

 

[Kasho]

I am going to try breaking this down.

The questions are by Brother John.

Question:
“You are saying that you are reducing the number of belts in your system and reducing (IF I'm understanding you correctly) your "Dan" graded black belts to be simply "Black Belts" and "Instructor/Black Belts". IS that correct?”


Answer:
Our under belt ranks will be reduced Yes! If a student currently holds a rank that is being removed they will hold that rank till their next test. No other student in the future will test for that (the old) rank /belt this maybe reduced down to the bare minimal or over a period of time or removed all together. Our black belts in our system are already at a lower system of the 5th Dan structure. but my schools (we are not an organization or association) will later only promote and recognize the Black belt (no Dan ranks). If an instructor of ours system is a 2nd Dan or higher and wish to keep their rank then that is up to them. I will not personally list that higher rank for those people on our list of instructors but that is different than taking it away.

If you noticed my rank structure is listed on MY schools pages and not other schools of our system or is it posted on the systems (style/art) board. This belt structure is not a mandate to all our instructors as they are independent.

Question:
“But your rationale seems wrong. You've said that you want to reduce these ranks (maybe eventually do away with them entirely) in order to keep rank from being a focus and from being 'abused'.
Here's my beef: From what I've read you saying....the abuse that you're seeing is NOT coming from w/in your system or your school(s)....but from w/out. If it aint broke..........ya know..........don't fix it. If there's a mentality about rank in your school(s) and association that you don't like...well......you're the head of things: Change the mentality. If you just do away with rank, nobody learns the critical lesson of putting 'rank' into it's proper perspective.”


Answer:
Okay, if I’m not getting mugged great, and if the woman next-door is I should not worry about it? I don’t think so, win loss or draw I’m going to be there. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t think a person can save the world, but you should do what you can.

The critical education lesson about rank is already there and will always be there as long as rank exists.

Question:
can you help me understand your stance on this better?

Answer:
I hope I just did.

Take care,
Brad

 

[Brother John]

Question:
“But your rationale seems wrong. You've said that you want to reduce these ranks (maybe eventually do away with them entirely) in order to keep rank from being a focus and from being 'abused'.
Here's my beef: From what I've read you saying....the abuse that you're seeing is NOT coming from w/in your system or your school(s)....but from w/out. If it aint broke..........ya know..........don't fix it. If there's a mentality about rank in your school(s) and association that you don't like...well......you're the head of things: Change the mentality. If you just do away with rank, nobody learns the critical lesson of putting 'rank' into it's proper perspective.”

Answer:
Okay, if I’m not getting mugged great, and if the woman next-door is I should not worry about it? I don’t think so, win loss or draw I’m going to be there. Now don’t get me wrong I don’t think a person can save the world, but you should do what you can.

The critical education lesson about rank is already there and will always be there as long as rank exists.

That makes no sense and doesn't address what I said at all.
It has nothing to do with defending others, it has to do with your rationale for how you are addressing rank abuse that you see in other orgs/schools by changing rank w/in YOUR school. This statement you made, for one...doesn't make sense in light of what I said..
not even related...

what gives?

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

?
​

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime

But if you kill the man, you don't have to feed him or put up with his silly questions...and you get to keep all the fish."

The Emperor

 

[Kasho]

I am speaking here about acting in a way that you see as just when you see an injustice being done.

Now your answer to this is to keep standards and dignity with in your own school/Association, as an act in it’s self of combating abuse of rank and student. And I do applaud that; I just see a different approach.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[AntayaSensei]

If I may sum things up a bit here...

When the rank becomes the end.... then the ego is the middle... and the wrong mindset is the beginning.

What is the cure? Self evaluation...
Cannot do that for anyone else...

Just my humble opinion
Jim :asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

So are the:

10th dans now 5th dans &

the 8th dans now 4th dans &

the 6th dans now 3rd dans &

the 4th dans now 2nd dans &

the 2nd dans now 1st dans???

What about the 9th, 7th, 5th & 3rd dans???

If a structure along those lines is not followed then all masters would be equal to their "original" founders before them.

 

[Kasho]

Most people are aware but some are not and some wish to keep people un-aware as part of the abuse with the upper Dans for ego or profit.

I will list them in the meaning that has always existed with a 5 Dan system what was once prevalent with in the arts.



Left side will be the 5 Dan.

1 = 1or 2
2 = 3 or 4
3 = 5 or 6
4 = 7 or 8
5 = 9 or 10

Once a person moves into a new Dan (on the 5 Dan scale) they would be on the lower end (of the 10th Dan) of that rank. This is how it has always been.

If a structure along those lines is not followed then all masters would be equal to their "original" founders before them.

The comment only shows the level of importance one places on rank. Lets say a 10th Dan founder promotes a student up to 10th Dan or the founder dies and a Grand master is now promoted with in the group to take over as the new 10th Dan. He is still not equal to the founder that formed the system. The title is higher than the rank.

Thank for the question,

Brad

 

[James Kovacich]

Most people are aware but some are not and some wish to keep people un-aware as part of the abuse with the upper Dans for ego or profit.

I will list them in the meaning that has always existed with a 5 Dan system what was once prevalent with in the arts.



Left side will be the 5 Dan.

1 = 1or 2
2 = 3 or 4
3 = 5 or 6
4 = 7 or 8
5 = 9 or 10

Once a person moves into a new Dan (on the 5 Dan scale) they would be on the lower end (of the 10th Dan) of that rank. This is how it has always been.




The comment only shows the level of importance one places on rank. Lets say a 10th Dan founder promotes a student up to 10th Dan or the founder dies and a Grand master is now promoted with in the group to take over as the new 10th Dan. He is still not equal to the founder that formed the system. The title is higher than the rank.

Thank for the question,

Brad

Thanx Brad,
I'm just curious. My point if not point blank was questioning that the current rank holders that are going down in rank, as you say a 9 or 10 dan is = 10. So the current 5th dans are now 3rd dans??

I've seen people do this before, going back to 5th being the high technical grade. But then they get blasted because they were a 5th and did not lower their rank. So the "blasters" blasted them for trying to be the Grandmaster.

 

[Kasho]

Okay, first one would have to care about the so-called “blasters” for them to have any impact.

Someone post early about a person being moved up in rank by people of same or lesser rank with in your art or peers in other arts of same or lower ranks coming together as a panel to promote a person to a higher grad. This today is seen as acceptable practice, But hey I never gave my permission! And I have seen to many people appointing a panel of friends so they would be promoted, and then turn around and they promote their friends to a higher grad. This happens ALL the time. Start going around looking at who signed a persons certificate and look at their grade and whom they received their rank from. You maybe surprised.

Our 5th Dan structure will later just become Black belt.

Brad

 

[Brother John]

I am speaking here about acting in a way that you see as just when you see an injustice being done.

Now your answer to this is to keep standards and dignity with in your own school/Association, as an act in it’s self of combating abuse of rank and student. And I do applaud that; I just see a different approach.

Thanks,
Brad

I guess what I'm saying, Brad, is that if you saw this injustice being done elsewhere....why not confront it where you find it. OR are you saying that you and your school(s) HAD been guilty of rank worship and that you ARE doing this at home because the injustice was at home. (just an honest question, confession is good for the soul)

By saying that those two statements weren't even related:
I think we'd all fight to protect a woman being beaten.
That's a question of ethics that's not related to this topic. It seems that by your rationale you've given here, that you're combating rank abuse in a place where it didn't exist.

I'll try to draw a correlation to my professional life:
I'm a corrections officer/counselor for incarcerated juvenile boys. We have five main dorms or wings to our facility. Often, when a young man has been experiencing problems on my dorm they'll come to my office and beg to be allowed to move to a different dorm....thinking that when they move they'll excape the problems and the heat (interpersonal problems) in ours. (The Grass is always greener... ya know) But I talk to them about what got them to these problems in the first place. We talk and talk and draw all of these circumstances back to their root cause: THEM, and especially their own mentality and the choices it lead them too. I ask them IF they move to the other dorm...what's to keep them from making those same problems arise over there. They often will say "I"ll change my mentality." Then I'll point out that what got them incarcerated in the first place was this same or a Very similar mentality...that if their life's circumstances would just change THEN they'd work to be better people. they agree. So I ask them, if that's all it takes....why not skip the middle man and change Your mentality NOW?? I point out that in life you cannot treat the symptoms (the heat on the dorm) but must face the music where you are and change what caused the problems to begin with....otherwise their life will turn into a continuous series of problems...running....problems.......running...........problems.........etc.
They eventually see that in order to Grow and get the greatest good from their circumstances of incarceration (CORRECTIONS) they need to worry the Most about changing themselves.....because only THIS will bring them to the point that they can not only excape their cycle of problems but also keep from causing NEW ones.
I have a plaque on my wall that a young man made for my, it's cheseled in stone (he is a VERY good artist)...and it sums up my philosophy for working with the boys at the facility:

"Do not prepare the path for the boy,
but build up the man for the path."

Now: let me relate this to our discussion.
You see a "wrong mentality" out there in the form of rank abuse.
...and you are corrrect! It's out there. Please note, not even the most heated of dessenters on this board disagrees with THAT point.
The ego-driven mentality that leads to rank abuse and missuse is like a cancer in our martial arts community. But the trick about removing a cancer is that you must do your utmost to remove ONLY the tissue that MUST be removed to be rid of the cancer. It's the mentality that is the problem, not the rank. We don't serve the students by changing the path so that it's less tempting to their egos. We change the student, leading them to hold the mentality and perspective of a TRUE Martial Artist...that doesn't regard rank as an object of desire or power, but of a sign of a sincere craftsman in our "Way".
By changing the belts instead of changing the student you've not affected the student, just the number of belts you'll hang on the way for display. You're proposing we change the path for the student, I say we build up the Martial Artist for the path.

I LIKE that the boys on my dorm come to me with this common request "Please John, let me move to that other dorm....things will be different for me then...." Because this is one of the greatest opportunities for me to reveal to them the root cause of their cycle of problems.....their mentality.
IF they LEARN this lesson, own up to their issues and take responsibility for what occurs in their life.......then they have a chance of becoming a man.
IF all I did was give them the move they THOUGHT they wanted, I'd just be changing the path for them....and they'd remain a self centered punk. I'd not have had the chance to effect their mentality.

I've also had a student come to me and tell me how BADLY they wanted that next belt, how Great a martial artist they could be if they could only "Get" that rank.
So I handed him mine and told him he didn't need to come to anymore classes at all....because he had a belt that was MUCH higher than that one he'd been looking at.
He thought about it for a bit, and said: "No sir, I want to earn it."
I asked How he planned to do that.
He said by showing up to every class and working as hard as he could, putting everything he's got to trying to be the best he can be.
He handed it back to me, saluted....and from then on...did just that.
Now...he's got a rank that others would envy..... but it's not that big a deal to him, rather....he takes pride in doing good work and in being one of the seniors that others come to with questions or requests for tips.

If we never give the student the chance to DESIRE a higher rank (6th dan?) then we'll never get the chance to lead them to understand that it's not the rank or belt that they want....but the qualities and the work it'd take to get there!!

I hope you see what I'm saying:
Changing the rank....you have a different rank system.
Changing the student....you have a student that's Grown as a person.

One is easier, could be done over night.
The other is Harder, but is much much more desireable.

Your Brother
John
​

 

[kroh]

Great post. I applaud you for your work with kids like that. More Positive role models like that and this country might have something to look forward to.

Regards,
Walt

 

[Brother John]

Great post. I applaud you for your work with kids like that. More Positive role models like that and this country might have something to look forward to.

Regards,
Walt

Honestly...
thank you.

My work, those boys, mean a LOT too me.


Your Brother (and theirs)
John