American Martial Arts: Issue of rank
- Thread starter Kasho
- Start date
- Status
Terry,
Thank you, but no more apologies are needed.
I also wish to be up front here and let everyone know that I pm-ed Terry on this subject once the tread was locked. I thanked him for his tone in his last post and gave him some links for him to look at if he cared to that had others besides myself talking about belt/rank reduction as a positive thing.
Thanks Terry for taking the time to examine these treads and I hope you noticed I did not bring up all these treads.
Anyway I think the staff here made a wise decision by first locking the tread for inspection and then for unlocking it as this is a serious subject.
Now on to Terry’s valid questions:
#1 and #2. Sometimes in the arts we have selective memoirs of the past. Many founders of arts old and new have created a system only to create another or change it later. Tang Soo Do to now Soo Bahk Do while some in this art help form TKD. Then much of TKD has moved into the sport aspect.
Change happens. From no belt to 5 Dan to 10 Dan or more. We initially chose a system we where at first we had a K(Kasho)rank for under belts/Black Belt rank structure with no advanced ranks. This was confusing to students and the public so a change was made to the better know kyu/Dan structure. Later like most all systems here because of advancing students and sticking with the theme of the Dan system there is a need with in that structure to have higher Dans. Over the last few years of seeing abuse happen on a wide scale the decision was made to reduce or eliminate rank. I have stated this many times that this should be done (IMO) slowly. First thoughts of how far back to cut and then a manner in which to educate students and other instructors about rank and how to reduce it. We had already set up our system with the lower 5 Dan so we are now starting with the kyu rank reduction. So everyone will know, we are removing three under belt ranks on the 15th of this month. The students have been informed of these changes and none have a problem with this. If a rank is being removed that a student now holds he/she will keep that current rank and then move on from there. After an adjustment time more ranks will be removed.
#3. First thank you! I am very passionate and genuine about this subject. But you are correct the larger Orgs/Association, suppliers and so on will all fight this. For one it means money to them, Big money. But if Association are not serving the member/client then fire them! There has been much that has been changed by association from the rewriting of history or deeds to the way people now think what martial arts are or supposed to be about. This is what I call association brain washing and yes that is for a different tread.
I once saw an association membership decline and in no time they waved time limits on testing from one rank to another. People where being promoted on a rapid scale, why? Money!! That and the fact more BB mean more teachers then more schools in turn more students and yes more money. They worry more about the size of their group then the quality of their art.
#4 I think anytime you take a stand for what you think is right and just it makes an impact on your students. I hope it will help to teach them good qualities. It will also save them money (Me, I’ll make less) by not paying for so many test. Our first test is $5.00 and our Black Belt test is $50.00 with no testing fees after that. Black belts also do not pay for class.
To me it is more about learning/teaching and sharing a life style then money.
Thanks for the questions.
Brad
Thank you, but no more apologies are needed.
I also wish to be up front here and let everyone know that I pm-ed Terry on this subject once the tread was locked. I thanked him for his tone in his last post and gave him some links for him to look at if he cared to that had others besides myself talking about belt/rank reduction as a positive thing.
Thanks Terry for taking the time to examine these treads and I hope you noticed I did not bring up all these treads.
Anyway I think the staff here made a wise decision by first locking the tread for inspection and then for unlocking it as this is a serious subject.
Now on to Terry’s valid questions:
#1 and #2. Sometimes in the arts we have selective memoirs of the past. Many founders of arts old and new have created a system only to create another or change it later. Tang Soo Do to now Soo Bahk Do while some in this art help form TKD. Then much of TKD has moved into the sport aspect.
Change happens. From no belt to 5 Dan to 10 Dan or more. We initially chose a system we where at first we had a K(Kasho)rank for under belts/Black Belt rank structure with no advanced ranks. This was confusing to students and the public so a change was made to the better know kyu/Dan structure. Later like most all systems here because of advancing students and sticking with the theme of the Dan system there is a need with in that structure to have higher Dans. Over the last few years of seeing abuse happen on a wide scale the decision was made to reduce or eliminate rank. I have stated this many times that this should be done (IMO) slowly. First thoughts of how far back to cut and then a manner in which to educate students and other instructors about rank and how to reduce it. We had already set up our system with the lower 5 Dan so we are now starting with the kyu rank reduction. So everyone will know, we are removing three under belt ranks on the 15th of this month. The students have been informed of these changes and none have a problem with this. If a rank is being removed that a student now holds he/she will keep that current rank and then move on from there. After an adjustment time more ranks will be removed.
#3. First thank you! I am very passionate and genuine about this subject. But you are correct the larger Orgs/Association, suppliers and so on will all fight this. For one it means money to them, Big money. But if Association are not serving the member/client then fire them! There has been much that has been changed by association from the rewriting of history or deeds to the way people now think what martial arts are or supposed to be about. This is what I call association brain washing and yes that is for a different tread.
I once saw an association membership decline and in no time they waved time limits on testing from one rank to another. People where being promoted on a rapid scale, why? Money!! That and the fact more BB mean more teachers then more schools in turn more students and yes more money. They worry more about the size of their group then the quality of their art.
#4 I think anytime you take a stand for what you think is right and just it makes an impact on your students. I hope it will help to teach them good qualities. It will also save them money (Me, I’ll make less) by not paying for so many test. Our first test is $5.00 and our Black Belt test is $50.00 with no testing fees after that. Black belts also do not pay for class.
To me it is more about learning/teaching and sharing a life style then money.
Thanks for the questions.
Brad
Kasho very interesting points to the question, first off I remember the korean sending over under belts when they left Korea and by the time they landed in the states they where Master ranks so I agree that rank serve nothing more than most people ego's.
But what happens to the people that truely train for there entire life are they not the one's who would be hurting if we went to a lower ranking or no ranking systems?
I will be waiting on your response.
Terry
But what happens to the people that truely train for there entire life are they not the one's who would be hurting if we went to a lower ranking or no ranking systems?
I will be waiting on your response.
Terry
What would they be hurting from? Training all their life in something they love and that can help protect them, their families and give them a better quality of life from the health benefits.
It’s about self-improvement, knowledge and ability. It’s one’s own journey and doesn’t need to be signified by some colored cloth. When you take you pants off at night you are still you with all your experiences and nothing can change that, not even removal of belt or reducing the number of Dan’s. You still have value and knowledge to share, a belt doesn’t earn you respect it’s the person that does.
Take care,
Brad
It’s about self-improvement, knowledge and ability. It’s one’s own journey and doesn’t need to be signified by some colored cloth. When you take you pants off at night you are still you with all your experiences and nothing can change that, not even removal of belt or reducing the number of Dan’s. You still have value and knowledge to share, a belt doesn’t earn you respect it’s the person that does.
Take care,
Brad
Haze
Blue Belt
Could those that had spend years in training be recognized for the time they spent promoting the art? It would not be rank but then we would know who the seniors are. Because this is a personal journey it is hard to rank people. One can be far more proficient than another and still be ranked lower.
Time in the arts. That's the way I see it. Actual time training, actual years training and reasearching and giving back to those coming up behind you.
Time in the arts. That's the way I see it. Actual time training, actual years training and reasearching and giving back to those coming up behind you.
Kasho said:
Are there people who understand this? Certainly... but they are not generally first-time students in a martial art.
Are there problems with rank inflation? Yes.
Are there problems with some classes/associations/organizations creating new ranks and/or reducing requirements so that more people will test, thus generating more test fees? Yes.
Does that mean that rank should be eliminated? I don't really think so, no. I agree that knowledge remains when one removes a belt - but belts have other purposes besides what they mean to the wearer:
- belts allows students to know who to go to when they need partners, information, or assistance. Sure, this could happen in other ways - but in larger classes, or in places where there are classes several or more days/nights a week, or associations that allow students to travel between classes, so that not everyone knows everyone else, belts (or any other sign of knowledge, such as a patch, or a different colored shirt, etc.) give a quick and easy way to find a person with the appropriate level of information
- like it or not, we live in a hierarchical and competitive society; while many people join martial arts classes to learn self-defense, or to get exercise, and stay because they find something in the art that they like, others join because they want to earn a particular rank, black belt being the most common, and, often, the most abused.
- regardless of why students join a martial arts class, ranks of any type (belt, patch, etc.) help to provide an organizational system for presenting and demonstrating knowledge, by codifying what students should learn, and in what sequence; as an instructor, I could teach students almost any technique at almost any level, but at the same time, having a codified yet flexible sequence of instruction provides the students with a consistently sequenced body of knowledge to learn, and points at which that knowledge is assessed.
- in addition to aiding in organizing the curriculum, rank requirements help maintain standards, assuming they are actually adhered to; I realize that many organizations - most notably those referred to under the umbrella term of "McDojos" - use rank inflation, extra ranks, and frequent testing as a means of generating income - but in my experience, not every organization is like that. Those that are, however, do give rank structure a bad name.
- ranks give students goals to reach for in their learning. Certainly, some students learn for the joy of learning - but many students need some indicator of progress that is more concrete than looking at newer students and comparing their knowledge to those who know less, and seeing their skills improve. Goals are important to many people, and many people will not remain in a situation that does not provide goals, and the means to reach them, when a similar situation provides those goals. As students continue to learn, ranks should be harder to earn, and should take longer, as students shift from learning to earn rank to learning for the sake of learning - but those ranks should continue to have objective standards enforced.
One of the problems with rank is time compared to individual ability. Some people are naturally more athletic than others; some naturally understand more; some have more difficulty but greater perseverance. This is the problem with time as a primary criteria; as a part of the criteria, certainly - but like other facets of rank, time in rank has been abused by people who are a particular rank but not active, or who do not devote the same time as others of similar rank, or whose lives prevent them from devoting as much time. Also, some people who are naturally athletic can copy nearly anything, but not necessarily understand it; people who understand technique may not necessarily be able to perform it as well as others who are more physically fit or coordinated. These types of issues also need to be considered when determining eligilibity to test for further rank, and individual potential needs to be compared to individual growth, as well as more objectivce standards.
As with many situations, this issue exists in shades of grey, and can incite a great deal of emotion, as has been seen in this thread and others. In my opinion, an organization that has concrete standards, which applies them with integrity while maintaining sufficient flexibility to account for individual differences, which uses any funding generated from rank testings for the benefit of the students rather than the instructors, is using rank appropriately. What this might look like could vary widely from art to art, organization to organization, in some cases, even class to class.
Kacey,
Great post!!!
This is way the option is available in this discussion for reduction. Reduction allows you to keep the hierarchy if you will while lowering the possibility of greater abuse.
As you also mentioned tee shirts or anything can signify levels. Wrist bans, color of uniform or what ever could do the job here, but is there a need for 30 degrees? (Rhetorical question) In many schools instructors already wear different uniforms than the students.
Again, GREAT POST!
Brad
Great post!!!
This is way the option is available in this discussion for reduction. Reduction allows you to keep the hierarchy if you will while lowering the possibility of greater abuse.
As you also mentioned tee shirts or anything can signify levels. Wrist bans, color of uniform or what ever could do the job here, but is there a need for 30 degrees? (Rhetorical question) In many schools instructors already wear different uniforms than the students.
Again, GREAT POST!
Brad
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
Yes, I'm beginning to agree......hmmmm, let's see. There is way too much abuse in over-charging for tuition. I think instructors should be humble, and want to teach just for free. We should eliminate all tuition fees everywhere. Now, I know the banks will fight this, but it is better for the students understanding of the value of Martial Art training.
Now that I think about it, there is far too much abuse of unqualified teachers opening Martial Art schools. Teaching can be done anywhere if you are truly a good teacher. We should close down all Martial Art schools, and teach in our backyards and basements. In fact, just since I started to suggest this on other websites, many Martial Art Schools have been closing their doors. It's sweeping the nation.
Why stop there? There is so much abuse of power in the police forces across America, why try to prosecute the offending officers? Let's just get rid of police all together (cheers from many out there). Wait a minute, our political system is way beyond corrupt. We should eliminate all political offices and titles (cheers from many more).
Ok, I'll get to my point. Corruption exists; people misuse and abuse power and titles; there are disreputable individuals in every walk of life. The moment you start taking away positive aspects of your life, profession, or organizations because of these poor misguided individuals, the terrorists have won!
It is difficult to convey the value of outward, visible, rank recognition to those who does not understand it's full purpose, but that is the challenge of this endless "Great Debate." Many people start their Martial Art journey with a high value on rank, and belts. Teachers know better, but guide them to this understanding over time. Every now and then, some instructor comes along with this new "revelation," and shouts "ranks are the root of all evil, and greed in the Martial Art. People are abusing ranks, therefore we must eliminate the belts!!!!! - and by the way, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!"
Seriously folks, the creation of the belt ranking structure (by whomever, for whatever reason, and with whatever number and names for belts at its conception) was an improvement on the dissemination of information, organization, structure, and philosophy of Martial Art education (if you fully understand, appreciate, and comprehend its value and purpose). It was a huge step forward, thus I see that it would be futile to take any number of steps backwards because of some obvious abuses.
Reasons for keeping a full ranking system: (my professional opinion)
1. It provides a visible structure of advancement for the beginner - those not yet enlightened to the grand philosophy of the reason why the belt itself is not of great value. This is the job of the instructor to teach them that lesson, while still using the belt / certificate as a tool along the way.
2. It provides short term goals and incentives for the "not so advanced" thinkers who really could use these visible steps and psychological reinforcers to help them along their path to the ultimate enlightenment of the value knowledge has over cloth belts, and paper certificates.
3. It provides a visible guide between schools of similar structure, and curriculum (IE: two Taekwondo Dojang of the same organization) who come together for summer camps, conferences, seminars, tournaments, testings, etc., etc. This allows for ease of flow when organizing any event, lining up in class, sharing of knowledge, practicing skills, and following leadership (If you're willing to use patches, stripes on uniforms, or different colored uniforms to identify senior students and instructors, then you have not eliminated the concept of ranks - - just changed the item that shows it).
4. Testings for rank provide increments of grading progress. To not test the students, runs the risk that an instructor is not doing their job teaching students what they need. Instructors need Masters to guide them. Masters can not possibly inspect all of the students on a daily basis (except in very small schools). Thus we catch the mistakes at testings, and correct the instructor. If you stop testing, you remove this tool. If you test, but give no indication to the student how they did, they might lose their motivation (sure, not the most enlightened ones who understand the "grand message," but I prefer to keep all students motivated until I can teach them the higher philosophies). Reducing the number of increments (belts) or eliminating test all together, makes it more difficult for the students to stay motivated, instructors to gage their teaching abilities, and masters to guide the instructors.
5. Testings provide a reasonable source of additional income (above tuition, profits from sales of supplies, tournament fees, seminars, etc.) This is how a successful business is run. Not to "soak" the student for all you can, and give nothing in return, but to charge a fair price for services rendered. In my opinion, you can not possibly pay enough to equal the value of a proper Martial Art education. Eliminate testing fees?? Then most instructors would have to raise tuition, or find other ways to generate income to pay their bills (rent and utilities are not cheap in many cities). Be noble and teach for free? - - be my guest! I am not greedy, nor am I all about charging fees to "rake in the dough." Those that are that way, are the problem, not the system of spreading payments out monthly with tuition and testing fees, instead of charging one lump sum at the start of the year.
Reasons for reducing or eliminating rank: (my viewpoint)
1. Some people do not fully understand rank, thus they see no need for it. They see abuses, and think it is a bad thing (usually because they have had a bad personal experience with it). They hear complaints from students about the added costs of testing fees, and they try to appease the novice who then is dictating what the instructor should or should not do (It's too hot in here, turn on the AC, it's too cold in here, turn up the heat, these chairs are not comfortable enough, there's not enough snacks in the vending machines - - where are the vending machines??).
I run my school - not the students, not the parents, not the general public, and not the masses of outside instructors who do not understand what I teach. It does not matter what the founders, or masters of the past did, we have moved on, and belt systems are a positive tool interwoven into the fabric of modern instruction.
If someone wants to test their students every week, and charge $5.00 per test to see how they did that week, it would cost about the same as testing every two months for $40 - $50.00. If another instructor want to reduce the number of belts and test once ever year for $5.00 per test, they have not changed the concept of rank, or championed a noble cause. They have just spread the distance out between checkpoints, and charged less money. Their message then is not about the evils of rank, it is that we charge too much for it. It's economics, then -accusations of greed.
Well, let me tell you something, people. When an instructor is working their flesh to the bone, learning everything they can about what they teach, charging a fair price for tuition and testing fees, yet they can barely afford to run the business, let alone take their wife out for a nice dinner, or their kids to Disney World, then we are not talking about greed, or abuse of rank, or inflated testing fees. So, forgive me if I am not sympathetic to someone who acts enlightened and noble by saying, "I'm going to charge less money for fewer tests!" With all due respect for fellow Martial Artists, and the personal opinions, I have no respect for the argument which implies that those who use belts, or charge regular testing fees are greedy, money hungry, individuals who do not understand the value of the knowledge over that of a cloth belt. I learned that lesson in the 1960s, and have been perfectly capable of passing it on to my students.
Does reducing rank remove, or reduce the problem of abuse. No - absolutely not. Unless you had nation wide (or even world wide) control over all schools (legitimate and illegitimate instructors alike), you would not have everyone complying, thus the larger rank systems will always exist (by those who abuse it, and those who do not). If everyone went to a three belt system, you would still have people charging money for stripes on the end of the belt, or stars in a book before you can test for the next belt. If everyone reduced the belt ranks, you would still have wide-spread abuse in one form or another.
What's to fight??? Will my state lottery officials fight it if I choose not to buy a lottery ticket anymore? Will I convince the rest of the people in my state that there is abuse in gambling so everyone should stop buying lottery tickets, or buy fewer tickets? There is no "sweeping movement" that organizations and suppliers need to be concerned about.
Again, who's running the school - the "client" or the instructor? If an organization is abusing testing fees to their instructors, then the instructors need to address this issue, or find a different organization (not necessarily one without belts, but one who does not charge outrageous fees).
Then these are the people who are the problem. Wrong for the actions, and wrong for their lack of understanding the value of quality of teaching. It is also wrong to lump everyone together who uses belts, and charges fees, as being greedy, and caring more about numbers than quality (not that anyone here is implying that), but it is the abusers, not the system that is the problem.
By the way, many people abuse the internet, so perhaps we should take away all the personal home computers???
For the above stated reasons, I respectfully disagree with any widespread reduction, or removal of belts.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
Now that I think about it, there is far too much abuse of unqualified teachers opening Martial Art schools. Teaching can be done anywhere if you are truly a good teacher. We should close down all Martial Art schools, and teach in our backyards and basements. In fact, just since I started to suggest this on other websites, many Martial Art Schools have been closing their doors. It's sweeping the nation.
Why stop there? There is so much abuse of power in the police forces across America, why try to prosecute the offending officers? Let's just get rid of police all together (cheers from many out there). Wait a minute, our political system is way beyond corrupt. We should eliminate all political offices and titles (cheers from many more).
Ok, I'll get to my point. Corruption exists; people misuse and abuse power and titles; there are disreputable individuals in every walk of life. The moment you start taking away positive aspects of your life, profession, or organizations because of these poor misguided individuals, the terrorists have won!
It is difficult to convey the value of outward, visible, rank recognition to those who does not understand it's full purpose, but that is the challenge of this endless "Great Debate." Many people start their Martial Art journey with a high value on rank, and belts. Teachers know better, but guide them to this understanding over time. Every now and then, some instructor comes along with this new "revelation," and shouts "ranks are the root of all evil, and greed in the Martial Art. People are abusing ranks, therefore we must eliminate the belts!!!!! - and by the way, the sky is falling, the sky is falling!!"
Seriously folks, the creation of the belt ranking structure (by whomever, for whatever reason, and with whatever number and names for belts at its conception) was an improvement on the dissemination of information, organization, structure, and philosophy of Martial Art education (if you fully understand, appreciate, and comprehend its value and purpose). It was a huge step forward, thus I see that it would be futile to take any number of steps backwards because of some obvious abuses.
Reasons for keeping a full ranking system: (my professional opinion)
1. It provides a visible structure of advancement for the beginner - those not yet enlightened to the grand philosophy of the reason why the belt itself is not of great value. This is the job of the instructor to teach them that lesson, while still using the belt / certificate as a tool along the way.
2. It provides short term goals and incentives for the "not so advanced" thinkers who really could use these visible steps and psychological reinforcers to help them along their path to the ultimate enlightenment of the value knowledge has over cloth belts, and paper certificates.
3. It provides a visible guide between schools of similar structure, and curriculum (IE: two Taekwondo Dojang of the same organization) who come together for summer camps, conferences, seminars, tournaments, testings, etc., etc. This allows for ease of flow when organizing any event, lining up in class, sharing of knowledge, practicing skills, and following leadership (If you're willing to use patches, stripes on uniforms, or different colored uniforms to identify senior students and instructors, then you have not eliminated the concept of ranks - - just changed the item that shows it).
4. Testings for rank provide increments of grading progress. To not test the students, runs the risk that an instructor is not doing their job teaching students what they need. Instructors need Masters to guide them. Masters can not possibly inspect all of the students on a daily basis (except in very small schools). Thus we catch the mistakes at testings, and correct the instructor. If you stop testing, you remove this tool. If you test, but give no indication to the student how they did, they might lose their motivation (sure, not the most enlightened ones who understand the "grand message," but I prefer to keep all students motivated until I can teach them the higher philosophies). Reducing the number of increments (belts) or eliminating test all together, makes it more difficult for the students to stay motivated, instructors to gage their teaching abilities, and masters to guide the instructors.
5. Testings provide a reasonable source of additional income (above tuition, profits from sales of supplies, tournament fees, seminars, etc.) This is how a successful business is run. Not to "soak" the student for all you can, and give nothing in return, but to charge a fair price for services rendered. In my opinion, you can not possibly pay enough to equal the value of a proper Martial Art education. Eliminate testing fees?? Then most instructors would have to raise tuition, or find other ways to generate income to pay their bills (rent and utilities are not cheap in many cities). Be noble and teach for free? - - be my guest! I am not greedy, nor am I all about charging fees to "rake in the dough." Those that are that way, are the problem, not the system of spreading payments out monthly with tuition and testing fees, instead of charging one lump sum at the start of the year.
Reasons for reducing or eliminating rank: (my viewpoint)
1. Some people do not fully understand rank, thus they see no need for it. They see abuses, and think it is a bad thing (usually because they have had a bad personal experience with it). They hear complaints from students about the added costs of testing fees, and they try to appease the novice who then is dictating what the instructor should or should not do (It's too hot in here, turn on the AC, it's too cold in here, turn up the heat, these chairs are not comfortable enough, there's not enough snacks in the vending machines - - where are the vending machines??).
I run my school - not the students, not the parents, not the general public, and not the masses of outside instructors who do not understand what I teach. It does not matter what the founders, or masters of the past did, we have moved on, and belt systems are a positive tool interwoven into the fabric of modern instruction.
If someone wants to test their students every week, and charge $5.00 per test to see how they did that week, it would cost about the same as testing every two months for $40 - $50.00. If another instructor want to reduce the number of belts and test once ever year for $5.00 per test, they have not changed the concept of rank, or championed a noble cause. They have just spread the distance out between checkpoints, and charged less money. Their message then is not about the evils of rank, it is that we charge too much for it. It's economics, then -accusations of greed.
Well, let me tell you something, people. When an instructor is working their flesh to the bone, learning everything they can about what they teach, charging a fair price for tuition and testing fees, yet they can barely afford to run the business, let alone take their wife out for a nice dinner, or their kids to Disney World, then we are not talking about greed, or abuse of rank, or inflated testing fees. So, forgive me if I am not sympathetic to someone who acts enlightened and noble by saying, "I'm going to charge less money for fewer tests!" With all due respect for fellow Martial Artists, and the personal opinions, I have no respect for the argument which implies that those who use belts, or charge regular testing fees are greedy, money hungry, individuals who do not understand the value of the knowledge over that of a cloth belt. I learned that lesson in the 1960s, and have been perfectly capable of passing it on to my students.
Does reducing rank remove, or reduce the problem of abuse. No - absolutely not. Unless you had nation wide (or even world wide) control over all schools (legitimate and illegitimate instructors alike), you would not have everyone complying, thus the larger rank systems will always exist (by those who abuse it, and those who do not). If everyone went to a three belt system, you would still have people charging money for stripes on the end of the belt, or stars in a book before you can test for the next belt. If everyone reduced the belt ranks, you would still have wide-spread abuse in one form or another.
Kasho said:
What's to fight??? Will my state lottery officials fight it if I choose not to buy a lottery ticket anymore? Will I convince the rest of the people in my state that there is abuse in gambling so everyone should stop buying lottery tickets, or buy fewer tickets? There is no "sweeping movement" that organizations and suppliers need to be concerned about.
Kasho said:
Again, who's running the school - the "client" or the instructor? If an organization is abusing testing fees to their instructors, then the instructors need to address this issue, or find a different organization (not necessarily one without belts, but one who does not charge outrageous fees).
Kasho said:
Then these are the people who are the problem. Wrong for the actions, and wrong for their lack of understanding the value of quality of teaching. It is also wrong to lump everyone together who uses belts, and charges fees, as being greedy, and caring more about numbers than quality (not that anyone here is implying that), but it is the abusers, not the system that is the problem.
By the way, many people abuse the internet, so perhaps we should take away all the personal home computers???
For the above stated reasons, I respectfully disagree with any widespread reduction, or removal of belts.
CM D.J. Eisenhart
EmperorOfKentukki
Green Belt
Thank you to the Site Admin for unlocking this thread.
To all readers...this post was made in PM and I would like to now offer it to the wider reader ship. I have copied it in its entirety without editing. It was originally sent to the site administrator.
Originally Posted by EmperorOfKentukki
I noticed where you locked the the thread Kasho started on rank reduction. I see where a time or two, some folks have become a little hot. While it has been cumbersome to read this thread, I don't really see where Kasho has intentionally insulted anyone...with the possible exception of telling one poster to 'grow up'. Nonetheless, I wish you'd unlock the thread again. The issue is important.
Now...I can tell you I have known Kasho personally for many years...and yes...he can be an egotistical snot to some people. Obviously, this doesn't bother me (as you can imagine...taking the title Emperor of Kentukki...I can throw ego with the best of them. LOL!). However, Kasho has his heart in the right place even if sometimes his cognitive process doesn't seem to follow a logical progression.
As to his interest in Rank reduction....he and I have spent countless hours discussing this very issue...and I'm partly to blame for his interest in it.
I can tell you that Kasho M.A. has never had more than 5 Dan ranks. I can also tell you the Kasho group could never be accused of 'selling' or 'giving' away rank. Many times I've commented that Brad is far to strict than necessary. While we disagree about being so strict with the gup ranks, I whole agree with him on the issue of only 5 Dan ranks. This was the original number of Dan ranks, and something that was increased only when it became blatantly apparant that the Karate Organizations in Japan were developing at a rapid pace and hence need greater stratification to ensure the 2nd and 3rd generation would not find themselves on equal footing with the school leaders whom others demanded needed to be held in venerable positions of rank. This expansion of rank occurred again here and in Asia post 1970's when it became apparent that not only was there a vast commercial market for martial arts, but there was untapped demographics as well which could lead to complete financial solvency if managed according to a newer business oriented model. Unfortunately, there is something inconsistent with philosophies of honor and application of greed in building a corporate dynasty. Thus the rub over rank. Today we have schools that have 18 gup ranks, up to 3 probationary Dan ranks, and as many as 15 Dan ranks themselves. If such a rank systems doesn't denegrate the concept of rank systems, I can't imagine what phenonmena could. I find it odd we consider a Black Belt to be a mature individual of exceptional character (isn't that what we promise prospective students and parents will be the benefit of instruction?) and yet we would never give a Driver's License to an 8 year old. Yet there are many who today have no problem with 8 year (or even worse ... 4 yr old) black belts and 12 year old Masters (should we also allow them to purchase hand guns and adult movies as well?).
So I can understand Kasho's frustration over the rank issue.
Last year I became so fed up with the hypocracy and lunacy of rank 'one-up-manship' that I created the persona 'Emperor of Kentukki'. A satirical expose' of what happens when a 'master' thinks a little too much of himself and his place in the grand scheme of things. It has been amazing the number of people who 'didn't get the joke'. Either they got mad...or worse case...they believed it (which if they really want to believe I'm royalty...I would appreciate it if they would stop trying to kiss my *** and just send me tribute...a.k.a. Money!).
Another event which impacted upon myself was the number of colleagues I have encountered who were suffering from 'Grand Master Influenza'. They apparently believe taking or obtaining such a title elevates them to 'demi-god' and must act accordingly. I personally returned a rank offer because the keeping of it simply would not have been ethical. The person that wanted to award it had never actually even met me nor even seen more than a cursory example of my M.A. ability in video. Only through internet and phone conversations have we ever spoken, and while I can easily demonstrate a proficiency of M.A. knowledge along philosophical and intellictual matters via these media...they hardly should be grounds alone for determining if I should be advanced further in rank. Thus...I had to send the certificate back with a very carefully worded correspondence. Alas...as feared....there was some hurt feelings on the part of that person. However, one of my own teachers, whom I have trained with and who has seen my skill demonstrations, discussed these issues with me and had no problem with my decision to not try to be a 7th Dan but to return to being a 5th Dan, with the 5th Dan being the pinnacle of rank possible in my particular Kwan (school). For this teacher who knew me....my actions were not an insult to him (who had awarded me as high as 6th Dan) but rather a demonstration that his faith in me and my ethics were never misplaced. Thus...today...I wear a white belt, by choice, to spread the message to never become so self important that you can't subjugate your ego. Rank is abused...and everyone above a novice experience knows this (obvioulsy I'm speaking in generalities concerning modern M.A. in its current commercial evolution). This is nothing new...and it has been going on since time immortal even before there was a 'dan rank system' when only 'titles' were used. It has always been the bain of legitimate teachers that there are and will be those that elevate/inflate and flat lie about their qualifications, and who will use title and rank to create an air of authority, authenticity and ellusive awe about their person. To what end? Many do it to enhance their economic potential to a market that is not just uniformedl, but misinformed as well. Often they do it simply to bolster their ego because it is self fulfilling (which is the most repulsive of all reasons and a true mark of someone with a sickness of character).
So...to end this ( and I do hope you will post it with the thread), let me conclude that Kasho is legitimately searching for debate on this issue. Yes, without doubt his agenda is the conversion of many to the concept of only a 5 Dan system....but his motivations are not in question.
Kasho has indeed practice and taught for many years...studied with both traditional and non-traditional teachers. He at the very least, has earned his place at the table.
As it is important to know the source of the opinions...here is what I can tell you about my background:
I have a Chodan in Shorin-ryu Karate earned from George Mac Lang in 1983 at Western Kentucky University.
I have earned a 6th Dan in Tang Soo Do. My Chodan was earned in Korea in 1984 under Master Han Chi Sup in Seoul, Korea and tested by the masters of the Moo Duk Kwan. My 2nd and 3rd Dans where under Phillip Suttle who was also my Sunbaenim (senior) while studying in Korea. My 4th through 6th Dans were under Master Daniel Nolan (you may have seen his Panther Product Videos) with my 4th (Masters Ranking) haven come in 1991.
I earned a brown belt in Sim Do Kwan Kum Do under Master Yang Chang Sik in Seoul, Korea 1985.
Today, I am 5th Dan, my school is the Mi Yong Kwan (Beautiful Dragon School) and I call my art Tang Soo Do. I have been Classically trained...and thus...I have an appreciation of classical arts. My students refer to me not as 'Master' but as 'Teacher'....and I wear a White Belt.
John Hancock
aka...the Emperor of Kentukki
To all readers...this post was made in PM and I would like to now offer it to the wider reader ship. I have copied it in its entirety without editing. It was originally sent to the site administrator.
Originally Posted by EmperorOfKentukki
I noticed where you locked the the thread Kasho started on rank reduction. I see where a time or two, some folks have become a little hot. While it has been cumbersome to read this thread, I don't really see where Kasho has intentionally insulted anyone...with the possible exception of telling one poster to 'grow up'. Nonetheless, I wish you'd unlock the thread again. The issue is important.
Now...I can tell you I have known Kasho personally for many years...and yes...he can be an egotistical snot to some people. Obviously, this doesn't bother me (as you can imagine...taking the title Emperor of Kentukki...I can throw ego with the best of them. LOL!). However, Kasho has his heart in the right place even if sometimes his cognitive process doesn't seem to follow a logical progression.
As to his interest in Rank reduction....he and I have spent countless hours discussing this very issue...and I'm partly to blame for his interest in it.
I can tell you that Kasho M.A. has never had more than 5 Dan ranks. I can also tell you the Kasho group could never be accused of 'selling' or 'giving' away rank. Many times I've commented that Brad is far to strict than necessary. While we disagree about being so strict with the gup ranks, I whole agree with him on the issue of only 5 Dan ranks. This was the original number of Dan ranks, and something that was increased only when it became blatantly apparant that the Karate Organizations in Japan were developing at a rapid pace and hence need greater stratification to ensure the 2nd and 3rd generation would not find themselves on equal footing with the school leaders whom others demanded needed to be held in venerable positions of rank. This expansion of rank occurred again here and in Asia post 1970's when it became apparent that not only was there a vast commercial market for martial arts, but there was untapped demographics as well which could lead to complete financial solvency if managed according to a newer business oriented model. Unfortunately, there is something inconsistent with philosophies of honor and application of greed in building a corporate dynasty. Thus the rub over rank. Today we have schools that have 18 gup ranks, up to 3 probationary Dan ranks, and as many as 15 Dan ranks themselves. If such a rank systems doesn't denegrate the concept of rank systems, I can't imagine what phenonmena could. I find it odd we consider a Black Belt to be a mature individual of exceptional character (isn't that what we promise prospective students and parents will be the benefit of instruction?) and yet we would never give a Driver's License to an 8 year old. Yet there are many who today have no problem with 8 year (or even worse ... 4 yr old) black belts and 12 year old Masters (should we also allow them to purchase hand guns and adult movies as well?).
So I can understand Kasho's frustration over the rank issue.
Last year I became so fed up with the hypocracy and lunacy of rank 'one-up-manship' that I created the persona 'Emperor of Kentukki'. A satirical expose' of what happens when a 'master' thinks a little too much of himself and his place in the grand scheme of things. It has been amazing the number of people who 'didn't get the joke'. Either they got mad...or worse case...they believed it (which if they really want to believe I'm royalty...I would appreciate it if they would stop trying to kiss my *** and just send me tribute...a.k.a. Money!).
Another event which impacted upon myself was the number of colleagues I have encountered who were suffering from 'Grand Master Influenza'. They apparently believe taking or obtaining such a title elevates them to 'demi-god' and must act accordingly. I personally returned a rank offer because the keeping of it simply would not have been ethical. The person that wanted to award it had never actually even met me nor even seen more than a cursory example of my M.A. ability in video. Only through internet and phone conversations have we ever spoken, and while I can easily demonstrate a proficiency of M.A. knowledge along philosophical and intellictual matters via these media...they hardly should be grounds alone for determining if I should be advanced further in rank. Thus...I had to send the certificate back with a very carefully worded correspondence. Alas...as feared....there was some hurt feelings on the part of that person. However, one of my own teachers, whom I have trained with and who has seen my skill demonstrations, discussed these issues with me and had no problem with my decision to not try to be a 7th Dan but to return to being a 5th Dan, with the 5th Dan being the pinnacle of rank possible in my particular Kwan (school). For this teacher who knew me....my actions were not an insult to him (who had awarded me as high as 6th Dan) but rather a demonstration that his faith in me and my ethics were never misplaced. Thus...today...I wear a white belt, by choice, to spread the message to never become so self important that you can't subjugate your ego. Rank is abused...and everyone above a novice experience knows this (obvioulsy I'm speaking in generalities concerning modern M.A. in its current commercial evolution). This is nothing new...and it has been going on since time immortal even before there was a 'dan rank system' when only 'titles' were used. It has always been the bain of legitimate teachers that there are and will be those that elevate/inflate and flat lie about their qualifications, and who will use title and rank to create an air of authority, authenticity and ellusive awe about their person. To what end? Many do it to enhance their economic potential to a market that is not just uniformedl, but misinformed as well. Often they do it simply to bolster their ego because it is self fulfilling (which is the most repulsive of all reasons and a true mark of someone with a sickness of character).
So...to end this ( and I do hope you will post it with the thread), let me conclude that Kasho is legitimately searching for debate on this issue. Yes, without doubt his agenda is the conversion of many to the concept of only a 5 Dan system....but his motivations are not in question.
Kasho has indeed practice and taught for many years...studied with both traditional and non-traditional teachers. He at the very least, has earned his place at the table.
As it is important to know the source of the opinions...here is what I can tell you about my background:
I have a Chodan in Shorin-ryu Karate earned from George Mac Lang in 1983 at Western Kentucky University.
I have earned a 6th Dan in Tang Soo Do. My Chodan was earned in Korea in 1984 under Master Han Chi Sup in Seoul, Korea and tested by the masters of the Moo Duk Kwan. My 2nd and 3rd Dans where under Phillip Suttle who was also my Sunbaenim (senior) while studying in Korea. My 4th through 6th Dans were under Master Daniel Nolan (you may have seen his Panther Product Videos) with my 4th (Masters Ranking) haven come in 1991.
I earned a brown belt in Sim Do Kwan Kum Do under Master Yang Chang Sik in Seoul, Korea 1985.
Today, I am 5th Dan, my school is the Mi Yong Kwan (Beautiful Dragon School) and I call my art Tang Soo Do. I have been Classically trained...and thus...I have an appreciation of classical arts. My students refer to me not as 'Master' but as 'Teacher'....and I wear a White Belt.
John Hancock
aka...the Emperor of Kentukki
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Here is the problem with doing away with dues. There are people like me who teach for a living not a good living but a living because its something I can do full time without having to worry about reading things on computer screens and such (I am visually impaired). So this allows me to teach full time and has for the past 10 years (teaching for 12). Also without the dues how do I pay rent on a 3200sq ft school that expense are higher then most people make in a month? How do I help feed my wife and I? How do I survive? This is not to say that I sell rank because I don't. $20 per kyu rank test and $200 per shodan test barely covers expenses.
Simple fact is I would love to teach for free but let's face it that isn't realistic. Expenses are to high for space and you still have to pay for food and shelter with what you make. Luckily my wife is full time school teacher and she covers most of our living expenses.
On average in my system it takes 4.5 years of consistent training (more then 2 hours a week) to make 1st dan. In addition to that another 2 years to 2nd dan, 3 years to 3rd dan, 4 years to 4th dan, 5 years to godan, 5-6 years to 6th dan, 6-7 years for 7th dan, 7-8 years for 8th dan 8-9 years for 9th dan and the only way to make 10th dan is to be the head of the system which means to have come to that you would have had to been an exceptional student, teacher and promoted the system a great deal. This is no easy road and would take someone into their 60's before reaching 10th dan considering no one gets shodan under 15 and most will be 16 or 17 minimum.
My old instructor issued rank at the drop of the hat to certain people that he was trying to get something out of and others who were dedicated and worked hard and earned them he ignored most times. Only those he wanted to suck up to got rank and has a result more then 90 % of all black belts he has promoted over 40 years are no longer with him and most never made it past 2nd dan. I won't do this rank has to be on a even playing field within the organization. Those who have some kind of physical problem can do it but most be able to explain what they can't do well enough so someone can understand them Being able to teach someone something means a great deal.
Rank gives people goals to reach and by the time they get to black belt they should have realized the real purpose of martial arts training.
Simple fact is I would love to teach for free but let's face it that isn't realistic. Expenses are to high for space and you still have to pay for food and shelter with what you make. Luckily my wife is full time school teacher and she covers most of our living expenses.
On average in my system it takes 4.5 years of consistent training (more then 2 hours a week) to make 1st dan. In addition to that another 2 years to 2nd dan, 3 years to 3rd dan, 4 years to 4th dan, 5 years to godan, 5-6 years to 6th dan, 6-7 years for 7th dan, 7-8 years for 8th dan 8-9 years for 9th dan and the only way to make 10th dan is to be the head of the system which means to have come to that you would have had to been an exceptional student, teacher and promoted the system a great deal. This is no easy road and would take someone into their 60's before reaching 10th dan considering no one gets shodan under 15 and most will be 16 or 17 minimum.
My old instructor issued rank at the drop of the hat to certain people that he was trying to get something out of and others who were dedicated and worked hard and earned them he ignored most times. Only those he wanted to suck up to got rank and has a result more then 90 % of all black belts he has promoted over 40 years are no longer with him and most never made it past 2nd dan. I won't do this rank has to be on a even playing field within the organization. Those who have some kind of physical problem can do it but most be able to explain what they can't do well enough so someone can understand them Being able to teach someone something means a great deal.
Rank gives people goals to reach and by the time they get to black belt they should have realized the real purpose of martial arts training.
I wish to make a quick observation here. While I take Mr. Last Fearner at his word and think this is his true belief it would also be easy for one that was in the rank thing for the money or ego to state their case in the same way.
Mr Fisher,
We have an instructor with one good eye and another senior instructor that is legally blind. He too is also married to a schoolteacher. One avenue he has taken was to become a certified massage therapist to help supplement his income. He is also in continuous training and is now also able to instruct in Tai Chi. Many instructors today are studding yoga so they may someday offer this at their school or they at a cut employ someone to come into the school to teach it.
Offering more activities at a school can generate more income and traffic flow while offering more to the public.
There are ways to make an income and teach with dignity and as martial artiest that should be a goal…. Honor and dignity.
Take care,
Brad
Mr Fisher,
We have an instructor with one good eye and another senior instructor that is legally blind. He too is also married to a schoolteacher. One avenue he has taken was to become a certified massage therapist to help supplement his income. He is also in continuous training and is now also able to instruct in Tai Chi. Many instructors today are studding yoga so they may someday offer this at their school or they at a cut employ someone to come into the school to teach it.
Offering more activities at a school can generate more income and traffic flow while offering more to the public.
There are ways to make an income and teach with dignity and as martial artiest that should be a goal…. Honor and dignity.
Take care,
Brad
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Hello Kasho.
1. What is the "thing" that has happenned to you that has precipitated this paradigm shift regarding the rank structure in your school? I'm having difficulty reconciling these things:
A. You founded your new martial art with a particular rank structure.
B. You then change it to create more ranks.
C. You then decide that you have too many, and now need to reduce.
2. You have alluded to this idea that there appears to be some type of trend occurring wherein many schools and organizations are reducing the number of ranks they promote. Can you please point me to a source for this?
1. What is the "thing" that has happenned to you that has precipitated this paradigm shift regarding the rank structure in your school? I'm having difficulty reconciling these things:
A. You founded your new martial art with a particular rank structure.
B. You then change it to create more ranks.
C. You then decide that you have too many, and now need to reduce.
2. You have alluded to this idea that there appears to be some type of trend occurring wherein many schools and organizations are reducing the number of ranks they promote. Can you please point me to a source for this?
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
Brad,
Honor and dignity is the only way I will have it. We are considering Tai Chi classes, cardio classes and common sense self defense classes. I refuse and I mean refuse to sell rank. Just have to recoup some cost.
Glad to hear I am not the only visually impaired martial arts instructor there are so few of us. All the best to your 2 guys and yourself. Thanks for the suggestions!!
Honor and dignity is the only way I will have it. We are considering Tai Chi classes, cardio classes and common sense self defense classes. I refuse and I mean refuse to sell rank. Just have to recoup some cost.
Glad to hear I am not the only visually impaired martial arts instructor there are so few of us. All the best to your 2 guys and yourself. Thanks for the suggestions!!
Kasho said:
1) Everything in this world revolves around money. If it's your system and YOU truly have a system that is unique then YOU must have reasons for the changes, all the changes.
2) This CAN be amount money but it does not mean it IS about money. If you have time limits in YOUR system. Then YOU are telling your students that not matter how good they are and how much they know. They are not getting promoted until THEY paid you for the set amount of time that you require, no matter how great they may be. That makes YOU about money.
3) In the martial art community where their were very few instructors to choose from just half a decade ago and now most styles now have thousands of instructors and overall their are millions of martial art participants. Why are you relating money to the amount of black belts and schools out there. These numbers are going to be high even if the Mc Dojo never existed.
If the issues for you are money, maybe you should just teach in the garage if happiness is what really matters.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
This has been an interesting thread, one that I have elected to primarily stay out of, but continue to watch.
Personally, I do see it as a legitimate topic of discussion and I would certainly like to see it continue in a positive manner. I am somewhat surprised by the force of some of the contributions, but apparently that just shows how strongly some people feel about this. I really had no idea.
I have posted my own thoughts on ranking, as I have given this subject some thought as well. I have posted on occasion in earlier threads, as well as near the beginning of this particular thread.
I believe there is a lot of abuse of rank, especially at the higher levels. I think a lot of people seize rank, and do whatever they can to "legitimize" high rank that they may have not really earned. I believe this has a lot to do with ego, for many of these people. While I recognize that what someone else does really has no bearing on myself, I still find it an unfortunate reality and I wish it wouldn't happen.
I believe that rank can be important and useful for the lower levels. It establishes a curriculum, and can motivate beginners to train hard and stay focused. But I wonder about the many levels of black belt. What do people think about this? Is there a need to have so many levels of black belt? I suggested a system that had only two: Non Instructor, and Instructor, without any additional levels of black belt. I'm not trying to push this on anyone, or start a worldwide movement for everyone to do this. It is just a notion that makes sense to me. I think everyone out there will make their own decision about this. Either they will keep the ranking structure that they inherited, or they will make changes, but everyone will decide for themselves, based on their experiences and needs.
For the sake of discussion, I would like to get input on my suggestion. What do you think might be good about this, what do you think might be not so good?
I think it would be good because I think it removes the "carrot" from the picture. I believe that once someone reaches this level, they should no longer need a carrot dangled in front of them. If they do, then I suggest maybe they don't yet deserve to be black belt ranking.
But I also recognize that not every black belt is ready to be a teacher. So this would be an addtional designation, when one is ready for it. At that point, that is it. Black is black, teacher is teacher. OF course everyone knows there are others who know more and are better, and we (should) maintain respect for that and strive to keep learning from those who can teach us. But I suggest we might not need additional ranks at this point.
Just to clarify my own background: I have a first degree black belt in Tracys Kenpo from an independent instructor, I am not directly certified thru Tracys organization. My certificate states that I am certified to teach and award rank, and it makes no exceptions or special conditions.
My Wing Chun instructor verbally gave me permission to teach, if I choose to, but we have no belts. I do not have a complete or perfect understanding of Wing Chun, but he feels that I can perform and teach the material at an acceptable level, so he said "go ahead".
I hold a Graduated Student ranking in capoeira, which is approximately equivalent to a first degree black belt in an Asian system. I have acted as a substitute teacher on occasion when our teacher was unavailable.
I have studied other Chinese arts for about 9 years or so. While I have a low rank in our school, rank is sort of ignored and forgotten about for the most part. My sifu occasionally asks me to help teach some of the lower level students.
I have been training in martial arts since 1984. While I am not a regular teacher, I certainly have some experience doing it.
I do not hold any high rank, and I am the first to admit this and don't intend to deceive anyone. But this is where I am coming from, and I just wanted to be open about it with regard to this discussion.
Thoughts are welcome. Thx.
Personally, I do see it as a legitimate topic of discussion and I would certainly like to see it continue in a positive manner. I am somewhat surprised by the force of some of the contributions, but apparently that just shows how strongly some people feel about this. I really had no idea.
I have posted my own thoughts on ranking, as I have given this subject some thought as well. I have posted on occasion in earlier threads, as well as near the beginning of this particular thread.
I believe there is a lot of abuse of rank, especially at the higher levels. I think a lot of people seize rank, and do whatever they can to "legitimize" high rank that they may have not really earned. I believe this has a lot to do with ego, for many of these people. While I recognize that what someone else does really has no bearing on myself, I still find it an unfortunate reality and I wish it wouldn't happen.
I believe that rank can be important and useful for the lower levels. It establishes a curriculum, and can motivate beginners to train hard and stay focused. But I wonder about the many levels of black belt. What do people think about this? Is there a need to have so many levels of black belt? I suggested a system that had only two: Non Instructor, and Instructor, without any additional levels of black belt. I'm not trying to push this on anyone, or start a worldwide movement for everyone to do this. It is just a notion that makes sense to me. I think everyone out there will make their own decision about this. Either they will keep the ranking structure that they inherited, or they will make changes, but everyone will decide for themselves, based on their experiences and needs.
For the sake of discussion, I would like to get input on my suggestion. What do you think might be good about this, what do you think might be not so good?
I think it would be good because I think it removes the "carrot" from the picture. I believe that once someone reaches this level, they should no longer need a carrot dangled in front of them. If they do, then I suggest maybe they don't yet deserve to be black belt ranking.
But I also recognize that not every black belt is ready to be a teacher. So this would be an addtional designation, when one is ready for it. At that point, that is it. Black is black, teacher is teacher. OF course everyone knows there are others who know more and are better, and we (should) maintain respect for that and strive to keep learning from those who can teach us. But I suggest we might not need additional ranks at this point.
Just to clarify my own background: I have a first degree black belt in Tracys Kenpo from an independent instructor, I am not directly certified thru Tracys organization. My certificate states that I am certified to teach and award rank, and it makes no exceptions or special conditions.
My Wing Chun instructor verbally gave me permission to teach, if I choose to, but we have no belts. I do not have a complete or perfect understanding of Wing Chun, but he feels that I can perform and teach the material at an acceptable level, so he said "go ahead".
I hold a Graduated Student ranking in capoeira, which is approximately equivalent to a first degree black belt in an Asian system. I have acted as a substitute teacher on occasion when our teacher was unavailable.
I have studied other Chinese arts for about 9 years or so. While I have a low rank in our school, rank is sort of ignored and forgotten about for the most part. My sifu occasionally asks me to help teach some of the lower level students.
I have been training in martial arts since 1984. While I am not a regular teacher, I certainly have some experience doing it.
I do not hold any high rank, and I am the first to admit this and don't intend to deceive anyone. But this is where I am coming from, and I just wanted to be open about it with regard to this discussion.
Thoughts are welcome. Thx.
A couple of questions have been asked of me directly here so I will respond to them:
First off and this should help people understand more as I do not wish to keep posting the same thing, rank has not been a big problem in my schools (not our system because every instructor sets their own rank structure) Our original rank structure was as the kyu/black belt (the word Dan means “rank” not a degree of black belt which everyone equates it to today. See even the meaning for the word changed.) but it had a different name. The number of under belt ranks were the same. Only the Dan ranks increased as I have stated before as well as the reason why. Rank abuse in all forms is what this subject is about. People here are getting locked in on just the money abuse or the total removal of rank. Those are just some of the things what are talked about in the beginning tread. Ego and the option of reduction is also mentioned. My reasons for the reduction or removal has been posted here many times and there is no need to post it again.
I said most Associations/Orgs would fight against this.
Mr. Hancock a former elected president of the International Tang soo do Alliance
who’s four-year term ended in 04/05? Himself has reduced his traditional rank down to a 5th and I believe he has now recommended the 5 Dan structure to the alliance.
A member of another board (will not mention the board here) is a president of an association and he has reduced his rank and who knows it may move to the association in the future. Myself and other instructors across this country are taking this step.
I will not post links here on this board at this point but Terry did receive some from me in a PM that had people talking about the removing or dropping rank in a positive way. If he wishes he may chose to post them.
Brandon Fisher
Your welcome Sir! If I can ever be of help just ask. Good luck to you.
Flying Crane
Nice post! Hopefully people will try to come up with an answer to your question.
Take care,
Brad
First off and this should help people understand more as I do not wish to keep posting the same thing, rank has not been a big problem in my schools (not our system because every instructor sets their own rank structure) Our original rank structure was as the kyu/black belt (the word Dan means “rank” not a degree of black belt which everyone equates it to today. See even the meaning for the word changed.) but it had a different name. The number of under belt ranks were the same. Only the Dan ranks increased as I have stated before as well as the reason why. Rank abuse in all forms is what this subject is about. People here are getting locked in on just the money abuse or the total removal of rank. Those are just some of the things what are talked about in the beginning tread. Ego and the option of reduction is also mentioned. My reasons for the reduction or removal has been posted here many times and there is no need to post it again.
I said most Associations/Orgs would fight against this.
Mr. Hancock a former elected president of the International Tang soo do Alliance
who’s four-year term ended in 04/05? Himself has reduced his traditional rank down to a 5th and I believe he has now recommended the 5 Dan structure to the alliance.
A member of another board (will not mention the board here) is a president of an association and he has reduced his rank and who knows it may move to the association in the future. Myself and other instructors across this country are taking this step.
I will not post links here on this board at this point but Terry did receive some from me in a PM that had people talking about the removing or dropping rank in a positive way. If he wishes he may chose to post them.
Brandon Fisher
Your welcome Sir! If I can ever be of help just ask. Good luck to you.
Flying Crane
Nice post! Hopefully people will try to come up with an answer to your question.
Take care,
Brad
Interesting choice of referance. I wonder how Mr. Hankocks instructor received his 7th dan from his instructor who is a 7th dan. And it is just to convenient for a 6th dan to recommend to the 7th and higher dans that 5th should be the highest. If he lowered his rank. He didn't lower it enough. He should be a 2nd going on a 3rd dan.Kasho said:
Maybe the "confusion" is in their own house.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/tangsoodo/lineage.htm
I also didn't see any referance to them lowering their ranks.
To prove a point there is nothing wrong with posting the links.
Brother John
Senior Master
Kasho-
For me, it all boils down to this..
You are saying that you are reducing the number of belts in your system and reducing (IF I'm understanding you correctly) your "Dan" graded black belts to be simply "Black Belts" and "Instructor/Black Belts". IS that correct?
1st off, that's great. I see nothing wrong with it. It's YOUR system and Your schools.....do as you will.
But your rationale seems wrong. You've said that you want to reduce these ranks (maybe eventually do away with them entirely) in order to keep rank from being a focus and from being 'abused'.
Here's my beef: From what I've read you saying....the abuse that you're seeing is NOT coming from w/in your system or your school(s)....but from w/out. If it aint broke..........ya know..........don't fix it. If there's a mentality about rank in your school(s) and association that you don't like...well......you're the head of things: Change the mentality. If you just do away with rank, nobody learns the critical lesson of putting 'rank' into it's proper perspective.
can you help me understand your stance on this better?
Thanks
Your Brother
John
For me, it all boils down to this..
You are saying that you are reducing the number of belts in your system and reducing (IF I'm understanding you correctly) your "Dan" graded black belts to be simply "Black Belts" and "Instructor/Black Belts". IS that correct?
1st off, that's great. I see nothing wrong with it. It's YOUR system and Your schools.....do as you will.
But your rationale seems wrong. You've said that you want to reduce these ranks (maybe eventually do away with them entirely) in order to keep rank from being a focus and from being 'abused'.
Here's my beef: From what I've read you saying....the abuse that you're seeing is NOT coming from w/in your system or your school(s)....but from w/out. If it aint broke..........ya know..........don't fix it. If there's a mentality about rank in your school(s) and association that you don't like...well......you're the head of things: Change the mentality. If you just do away with rank, nobody learns the critical lesson of putting 'rank' into it's proper perspective.
can you help me understand your stance on this better?
Thanks
Your Brother
John
EmperorOfKentukki
Green Belt
Well...that is a possibility. However, maybe the confusion is in the research methodology. I.E....the listed link above is from a old website that is no longer current nor active by the individual who created it, who, btw, is not me, and is not the website of the International Tangsoodo Alliance. Additionally, as a member of ITSDA, I can only make a motion, which must be seconded and voted on according to standard rules of Parlamentary Procedure and all such revisions of constitution must carry with 90% of the Active membership concurring. Thus...even if you had found the actual website of the ITSDA...you still would not have found any reference to the motion to recognize only 5 Dan ranks.
I hope this has erudiated the matter for you.
JH
- Status
Similar threads
