American Martial Arts: Issue of rank

[Kasho]

Brother John

I myself work in the mental health field that deals with people with drug and alcohol abuse. The dealers, junkies, collectors and so on are some of the worse our society has to deal with, but people can change. Teaching them about their addiction and how to have a new clean life is very important. So I do know of what you speak!

I enjoyed your post a great deal and don’t disagree with much of it, however reducing rank should not be a big problem for the students as by the time one would receive a 5th Dan I would hope they would have a true understanding of that rank.

As I said before our education for our students will continue.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[Flying Crane]

...by the time one would receive a 5th Dan I would hope they would have a true understanding of that rank.

Actually, I would hope this would happen by the time one reaches 1st Dan, whether in a 5 or 10 Dan system.

 

[James Kovacich]

I think I missed it. How many ranks did Kasho go back?

I'm asking because it is differant the highest rank is a 5th dan and he can only promote to 4th dan but if he is equating a 5th as the highest and equivalent to 9-10th dan. Then he must of went back in rank somewhere in there.

 

[Flatlander]

I think I missed it. How many ranks did Kasho go back?

I don't believe that this has yet been disclosed.

 

[terryl965]

I think I missed it. How many ranks did Kasho go back?

I'm asking because it is differant the highest rank is a 5th dan and he can only promote to 4th dan but if he is equating a 5th as the highest and equivalent to 9-10th dan. Then he must of went back in rank somewhere in there.

As far as I'm aware he is a 5th in his system and he would be the highest, so by that he could not promote pass 4th. Kasho I hope I said that right.
If not remember it is just my opinion.
Terry

 

[Flying Crane]

As far as I'm aware he is a 5th in his system and he would be the highest, so by that he could not promote pass 4th. Kasho I hope I said that right.
If not remember it is just my opinion.
Terry

But who creates these rules? These are not universal. They are just rules created by people for various reasons. He may well be able to promote all the way up to the highest level, which in this case, sounds like 5th.

Personally, I think rules like this are simply designed to maintain control over others, within a larger organination. If someone is authorized to be a teacher, yet is limited in how high they can give promotions, and can only promote to one or two levels below their own rank, that makes them dependent on the larger organization. In my opinion, this kind of leash on the instructors is really unnecessary.

 

[terryl965]

But who creates these rules? These are not universal. They are just rules created by people for various reasons. He may well be able to promote all the way up to the highest level, which in this case, sounds like 5th.

Personally, I think rules like this are simply designed to maintain control over others, within a larger organination. If someone is authorized to be a teacher, yet is limited in how high they can give promotions, and can only promote to one or two levels below their own rank, that makes them dependent on the larger organization. In my opinion, this kind of leash on the instructors is really unnecessary.

You are probaly right.
Terry

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

But who creates these rules? These are not universal. They are just rules created by people for various reasons. He may well be able to promote all the way up to the highest level, which in this case, sounds like 5th.

Personally, I think rules like this are simply designed to maintain control over others, within a larger organination. If someone is authorized to be a teacher, yet is limited in how high they can give promotions, and can only promote to one or two levels below their own rank, that makes them dependent on the larger organization. In my opinion, this kind of leash on the instructors is really unnecessary.

Good post!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[kroh]

But who creates these rules? These are not universal. They are just rules created by people for various reasons. He may well be able to promote all the way up to the highest level, which in this case, sounds like 5th.

Personally, I think rules like this are simply designed to maintain control over others, within a larger organination. If someone is authorized to be a teacher, yet is limited in how high they can give promotions, and can only promote to one or two levels below their own rank, that makes them dependent on the larger organization. In my opinion, this kind of leash on the instructors is really unnecessary.

You da man!...er...aahh...You da Crane!
Aw hell you know what I mean!
Regards,
Walt

 

[Shrewsbury]

Brad is a 4th dan in Kasho and in his own way is just trying to put the emphasis on skill not rank, though we all agree this is obvious, you must admit there are plenty of people who do not hold by this, think of some of the high ranking people you have met, some were certainly only high in rank and not skill.

Is what he is doing right or wrong? don't know, don't care. if it helps a few martial artists concentrate on quality of skill it is worth the effort.

unfortunatly there will never be a truly accepted universal standard for rank, whether how much or what skills are required, if so I would be the first willing to be tested by a board of my true peers for the reason of understanding where it is I am headed and perhaps what I need to do to get there, this will never be.

I have earned much rank and titles in my time but I no longer wear belts or go by titles, but respect those that choose to. my personal skills are what matters and after 30 years I can proudly say i have much to learn and a long way to go. my current students have no rank nor will get any, they are there to train for personal reasons, if they need rank, then work out a week straight with no shower, you will be plenty rank!

again I respect rank and those that use it, but I choose not to, that is my choice, just like Brad may choose to cut down on rank or dispose of it totaly, this is his choice.

I must admit I am so tired of seeing all these 10th dans that are young, in my opinion this would be the end of skill, no way anyone can get there in a single life time, so my veiw of rank is distorted and perhaps this is one reason I do not use it.

Singed

Grand Great Head Senior Master Sifu Sensei Jay

( some one slap this guy)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Jay,

Really nobody here disputes that Brad should do whatever he wants in his own school. Though, I do believe some question his motives. However, if he wants 5th Dan the highest in his school then so be it. Just do not thumb your noses down at others who choose not to go that route. (believe me there is no ground movement sweeping the nation on reducing rank, just look in the yellow pages)
For me, what matters is skill and rank is just not very important.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I am still trying to figure out just what exactly is to be questioned in Kasho's motives.

OK, we all agree that abuse of rank is pretty rampant.

We also agree that the real value in training is in training, and to focus on rank as the goal and motivation is a mistake.

Kasho suggests simplification in the ranking system as a way to bring the focus back to training, and away from rank as a goal.

Not everyone agrees with Kasho, that this is the best solution to the problem, but everyone agrees that Kasho, and anyone else who chooses to do so, are free to do whatever they want along these lines, if they so choose. Everyone also agrees that those who choose to keep the rank system that they have inherited are free to do so as well.

It seems to me that Kasho is mostly just trying to stimulate conversation on this topic, and get people to take a look at what they are doing and why they are doing it with regard to rank, and maybe just question the system a bit. I really don't see anything wrong with that. I don't believe there is a "movement" across the globe to reduce rank. I don't believe that discussions such as this, on forums such as MT, will have any significant impact on rank as it is utilized in martial arts schools around the world. But I do believe it is a subject worthy of discussion, and I don't understand why Kasho's motives are in question here. Nobody pretends that he is in a position of authority, outside his own organization, to dictate to anyone how things are to be done. You all are free to follow his lead, or consider his suggestions, or not, as you see fit. So why, exactly, are his motives being subject to scrutiny? What do you all think he has to gain or profit from this, and how would it affect yourself, or the martial arts world at large?

As I am sure many here have seen from my postings in other threads, I am an advocate of questioning the system, and the traditions that we have inherited. I feel that we all need to find our own way and our own place in the martial arts, and sometimes that means changing things. I believe decisions to change things shouldn't be made lightly. I believe any such decisions should be deeply pondered and researched and only done if the change is believed to bring about a real benefit in the quality of martial arts.

I don't believe everything should be changed, and I don't believe that just anybody is in a position to make intelligent decisions about what should be changed. I believe that those who decide to make changes should be people with a lot of experience in the arts, and not just some beginner who can't yet figure out how to do something correctly or effectively. I can't provide any concrete guidelines to determine just exactly who is and is not qualified. I think it is not as simple to define as that. But I will always encourage people to think for themselves. If you cannot do this, then you really have learned nothing in the martial arts, but how to follow someone else.

Maybe Kasho hasn't always expressed himself in the best way. However, I think when we strip away the layers, Kasho is really just advocating the notion of thinking for yourself, and making your own decisions. I don't see anything to question, in those motives.

 

[James Kovacich]

All I wanted to know is he being "true" to his own standards. If he's a 4th dan,great. Is this his rank after lowering it down to the lower rank? It does not mean anything either way to me. He's just a bit evasive and no disrespect is intended.

I've been blasted over and over and it usually happens from peoples whose instructors closets are full of skeletins. LOL.

All that matters is he follows his own standards that he preaches. Everybody blasts everybody about everything but many fail to practice what they preach?

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

When I was training in Korea, my sword master once said to me that all ranks above 5th Dan are honorary...no matter what system/school you come from. The higher dans are awarded for service to your particular ryu or organization. He stated that by the time you reach 5th dan you should have already accomplished Mastery and no longer needed a Master yourself (keeping one merely was through a sense of affection/loyalty/good manners, etc.). Nonetheless....you should have learned the system completely by that time and become your own man...so to speak...able to innovate, investigate and teach yourself.

OK...that said....I had a 6th dan in TSD. I have been encouraged by some to pursue say an 8th Dan through one of these groups that 'evaluate and issue rank' such as AIKIA. I had a peer who obtained his higher dans throug the Il Do Kwan group want to offer me a 7th Dan. I passed. My own mentor (note I said Mentor...not Master) has no problem submitting me for promotion to a group of his fellows for advancement to higher dan rank...and he did award me my 6th.

OK....I've been doing this stuff for over 25 years. I'm old and crippled now and no one is impressed with my fast **** anyway...so who cares what my rank is. I chose, for me and my systems to use 5 Dans. I personally don't really have a rank within the Mi Yong Kwan (my own system). But in my mind...it would take 20 years to get to a 5th Dan...and that's beginning at 18 (I don't do junior black belts or 14 year old masters). I don't even like the Master title. I have my students refer to me as 'Teacher'. I had a white belt made with midnight blue trim to reflect this philosophy of not being caught up in rank and titles after one truly reaches the level of Master.

The founder of the Moo Duk Kwan, Hwang Kee, was once asked by a young Dan at an event why his belt didn't have his name written on it like everyone else. His answer was, 'I already know who I am."

JH

 

[kroh]

I thought that was a great post Emp. I have a question in regards to the belt that you wear (white with blue trim). This is going to sound snobby over the net without tone or context, so, to preface I will say that I really enjoy reading your posts so far and you seem a nice guy.

Have you thought of loosing the blue trim all together and just going with a regular old white belt?

I would think that at a superior level, your reputation would be your badge of office, and your skill would be your rank.

Just a question. And as I said, it is not meant as a poke, I was just wondering how you would feel about somethign like that.

Regards,
Walt

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Well...I kept the thin trim as a tribute to my TSD roots. But honestly....1/2 the time...I don't even wear a belt anymore. Usually, I'm traditional clothing (hanbok).

 

[kroh]

That's cool...good luck in your training sir...

Regards,
Walt

 

[Kasho]

Sorry I have been so long but I’m having trouble with the home computer.

As to my rank Yes 4th Dan is correct but that is not so in the art I help found, in that system I hold no rank I hold a title. By Asian standards a green belt or a 1st Dan that wishes to start his own style can go straight to a 5th or a 10th Dan. That’s just the way it is!!! The rank structure is re-instituted with the greater higher rank being for the founder for administrative reasons and many times ego. Jigoro Kano did give himself rank but not the top rank with in his structure. We did not elevate our own ranks, as we did not see this as acceptable. In America abuse is extremely bad, but many wish to hold other Americans to a higher standard than to our Asian counter parts.

Again I hold no rank in our art, I will be reducing my rank in the future, I am saving our students on testing fees (my test fees now 10.00 and the highest is 50.00). Black belts do not pay for higher Dan tests and they train for free. And we are putting our attention on training and not rank.

Question my motives as you have and to a point that is understandable but it starting to look as if the are a lot of paranoid people out there.

The old rank systems allowed people to promote up to two ranks under them. That has now changed in may schools and arts. Today a person can promote someone up to one rank under them. So way is this now acceptable??? This is change! I also see that with a lower rank system a person should be able to promote up to their own rank if that person that is doing the testing has a minimal of two years at that rank.

Now again people are talking here about changing rank around the world, I have been talking about arts in general as this tread has progressed, but the topic was about American martial arts dealing mostly with non-traditional arts or those seen as solely American. Again other may do as they wish but this topic needs to be considered.

Thanks,
Brad

 

[terryl965]

Kasho, Brad you have been a pleasure with all of your integrity about your art as well as other arts, all I can say is this one must do as they feel is right for them, I will never critisize some one for what they believe to be right. This is your style if you choose to have no rank it is your call, just remembe rpeople will always be judgemental about change either good or bad. For everyone that agrees with you there will be 5000 that do not, you have shown you are strong in your beliefs and that says alot about your charactor to me anyway.
Good luck in your quest and take care, I'll be popping in from time to time just to see where this all goes.
Terry

 

[kroh]

Hey Brad,

You stated that in the Asian systems, that a person could promote themself to ju-dan or higher even though they were no more than go-kyu. Could you give an example of some of these systems as I am not familiar with this practice. I know American practioners of Asian systems often do this but if you could also illustrate the Asian systems that do this it would be very educational.

Regards,
Walt