Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

Both Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock don't use wrestling stance.

View attachment 26818

Why would they? Royce is GJJ and Shamrock was a Shootfighter.

 

[Hanzou]

Look, I understand you don't have any need or reason to take personal anecdote....

That would be correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Based on the fact that we have Aikido schools telling their students they can beat multiple attackers.

Yet you have no evidence of Aikido practitioners in street fights against a gang of people. Or that people Join Aikido because they think it will allow them to beat up a gang of people. Just because school advertises it doesn't mean thats why the student joins or that fighting multiple attackers is their goal.

 

[Hanzou]

Yet you have no evidence of Aikido practitioners in street fights against a gang of people. Or that people Join Aikido because they think it will allow them to beat up a gang of people.

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In other words, just because there are no stats or footage of Aikidokas doing this doesn’t mean that they don’t do it, or believe they can do it.

Just because school advertises it doesn't mean thats why the student joins or that fighting multiple attackers is their goal.

Why would a school advertise that if they didn’t believe that it would draw in potential students?

 

[Buka]

Well it happens all the time, even with untrained people much less a competent knife fighter. A knife is not some mythical object with superhuman abilities, it is just a sharp piece of metal with a few inches of reach. The "everyone gets cut in a knife fight" routine is fun for old hats to toss around because there's a high probability of getting cut and the stakes are high so people don't do it as much as regular fist fighting. A bayonet for example is a sharp piece of metal on the end of a stick, the actual metrics developed by the military are more akin to "you stick the guy or he sticks you or you both stick each other, the end" this leaves all sorts of room for not actually getting cut to happen.

I can watch any given full speed Kali match and see a disarm on a stick or a knife, that's not magic and some of those guys don't even have very many hours in on training, its a matter of acting before the other guy touches you with that sharp piece of metal. For saying you put the hours in and never got a disarm off, I find that less believable than anything. Hand any two guys a marker and tell them to take it away from each other, sure they will end up with some marks on each other probably, but I can guarantee there's going to be a lot more times than zero in the span of a few minutes where they take the marker from the other guy without any technique needed. My kid tries as hard as he can to poke me with toy swords and what not and he's a lot quicker than an angry drunk with a bottle.

Is there FUD out there? Sure. One of the biggest lines of crap in martial arts is that its impossible to take a knife away from someone, people do it all the time, I've gone to plenty of 911 calls where someone's drunk uncle had to be disarmed at a barbecue or someone was holding down a mugger without a scratch on them. Are the stakes high? You bet. I can see why it would behoove you to write off knife defense as impossible and there are plenty of bullshido knife and gun defenses out there but that really means nothing. If a liquor store clerk can take a pistol away from a robber before he can fire it with zero training and nothing but adrenaline on their side then you absolutely can take a stick or a sharp piece of metal away from someone. The level of danger attributed to something has nothing to do with its overall difficulty.

Like I said, "I can't speak for anyone else". Just myself.

You're not the first person more talented than I, and probably won't be the last.

 

[Shatteredzen]

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In other words, just because there are no stats or footage of Aikidokas doing this doesn’t mean that they don’t do it, or believe they can do it.

Yet the same argument isn't honored by you, hmmm.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yet you have no evidence of Aikido practitioners in street fights against a gang of people. Or that people Join Aikido because they think it will allow them to beat up a gang of people. Just because school advertises it doesn't mean thats why the student joins or that fighting multiple attackers is their goal.

It's just another red herring to shift the argument. I also have never seen the "florida man loses gang fight because of bad Aikido" newspaper article.

 

[Buka]

Well it happens all the time, even with untrained people much less a competent knife fighter. A knife is not some mythical object with superhuman abilities, it is just a sharp piece of metal with a few inches of reach. The "everyone gets cut in a knife fight" routine is fun for old hats to toss around because there's a high probability of getting cut and the stakes are high so people don't do it as much as regular fist fighting. A bayonet for example is a sharp piece of metal on the end of a stick, the actual metrics developed by the military are more akin to "you stick the guy or he sticks you or you both stick each other, the end" this leaves all sorts of room for not actually getting cut to happen.

I can watch any given full speed Kali match and see a disarm on a stick or a knife, that's not magic and some of those guys don't even have very many hours in on training, its a matter of acting before the other guy touches you with that sharp piece of metal. For saying you put the hours in and never got a disarm off, I find that less believable than anything. Hand any two guys a marker and tell them to take it away from each other, sure they will end up with some marks on each other probably, but I can guarantee there's going to be a lot more times than zero in the span of a few minutes where they take the marker from the other guy without any technique needed. My kid tries as hard as he can to poke me with toy swords and what not and he's a lot quicker than an angry drunk with a bottle.

Is there FUD out there? Sure. One of the biggest lines of crap in martial arts is that its impossible to take a knife away from someone, people do it all the time, I've gone to plenty of 911 calls where someone's drunk uncle had to be disarmed at a barbecue or someone was holding down a mugger without a scratch on them. Are the stakes high? You bet. I can see why it would behoove you to write off knife defense as impossible and there are plenty of bullshido knife and gun defenses out there but that really means nothing. If a liquor store clerk can take a pistol away from a robber before he can fire it with zero training and nothing but adrenaline on their side then you absolutely can take a stick or a sharp piece of metal away from someone. The level of danger attributed to something has nothing to do with its overall difficulty.

Well it happens all the time, even with untrained people much less a competent knife fighter. A knife is not some mythical object with superhuman abilities, it is just a sharp piece of metal with a few inches of reach. The "everyone gets cut in a knife fight" routine is fun for old hats to toss around because there's a high probability of getting cut and the stakes are high so people don't do it as much as regular fist fighting. A bayonet for example is a sharp piece of metal on the end of a stick, the actual metrics developed by the military are more akin to "you stick the guy or he sticks you or you both stick each other, the end" this leaves all sorts of room for not actually getting cut to happen.

I can watch any given full speed Kali match and see a disarm on a stick or a knife, that's not magic and some of those guys don't even have very many hours in on training, its a matter of acting before the other guy touches you with that sharp piece of metal.

So have I. But I wasn’t talking about Kali matches, was I?

For saying you put the hours in and never got a disarm off, I find that less believable than anything.

Are you as polite in police work as you’ve been on this forum? I’ve been in Law Enforcement since before you were born. I don’t think I’d want you as a partner.


Hand any two guys a marker and tell them to take it away from each other, sure they will end up with some marks on each other probably, but I can guarantee there's going to be a lot more times than zero in the span of a few minutes where they take the marker from the other guy without any technique needed. My kid tries as hard as he can to poke me with toy swords and what not and he's a lot quicker than an angry drunk with a bottle.

Is there FUD out there? Sure. One of the biggest lines of crap in martial arts is that its impossible to take a knife away from someone, people do it all the time, I've gone to plenty of 911 calls where someone's drunk uncle had to be disarmed at a barbecue or someone was holding down a mugger without a scratch on them. Are the stakes high?

I think you comment before realizing what you’re saying. I wasn’t referring to drunk uncles at a barbecue, I was talking about disarming other knife fighters without a blade in my hand.


You bet. I can see why it would behoove you to write off knife defense as impossible and there are plenty of bullshido knife and gun defenses out there but that really means nothing. If a liquor store clerk can take a pistol away from a robber before he can fire it with zero training and nothing but adrenaline on their side then you absolutely can take a stick or a sharp piece of metal away from someone. The level of danger attributed to something has nothing to do with its overall difficulty.

I’m sure you can, and good for you. I can’t. Again, I was speaking about my skills, not yours.

 

[Hanzou]

Yet the same argument isn't honored by you, hmmm.

If you're talking about me pointing out that I have never personally witnessed a smaller male or woman impose their will on a bigger, stronger person utilizing Aikido, I stand by that observation. Considering we have examples of smaller BJJ or submission grappling practitioners overcoming larger opponents, but no such examples in the history of Aikido doing the same, I feel that that belief is warranted.

 

[JowGaWolf]

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In other words, just because there are no stats or footage of Aikidokas doing this doesn’t mean that they don’t do it, or believe they can do it.

Save that nonsense for someone who doesn't know how you operate in these forums. Try that on one of the new guys that join here.

Why would a school advertise that if they didn’t believe that it would draw in potential students?

A lot of time it's marketing, knowing that once they get people into the school that the teacher will change their mindset on what Aikido is and what it isn't. It wouldn't be the first time that someone joins a martial arts school for one reason and then have a different reason for staying. My first reason for joining a Jow Ga school was because I like Chinese kung fu weapons and I wanted to learn how to use them (not in a fighting sense) The reason I stay in Jow Ga is because I want to be a good representation of Jow Ga. I still like weapons, but now I actually want to be able to use them and not just do them in forms. My purpose and goal shifted after I got into the school. Some people go in as an aggressive person and come out as a pacifist. That's just the way things are.

The older I get, the more I see Jow Ga as being good for my physical and mental health. I'm less stressed when I'm training, A lot of times it's my escape. But that wasn't always the case. Now that my son has taken a big interests. It's how I connect to him a lot of times.

Just because someone joins Aikido, thinking they will beat up 10 attackers (because the school advertised ) doesn't mean that they will have that same perspective 3 months later. That's just the reality of it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yet the same argument isn't honored by you, hmmm.

Some may call that Irony. lol

 

[Shatteredzen]

So have I. But I wasn’t talking about Kali matches, was I?

Are you as polite in police work as you’ve been on this forum? I’ve been in Law Enforcement since before you were born. I don’t think I’d want you as a partner.

1) Full contact sparring is almost the same as doing it live but with less consequences. Grabbing a training blade versus a real one doesn't change except in the potential risk posed by failure.

2) My apologies for the impoliteness. If you are having this much fun already, I doubt you would want to push a black and white around with me. I'm even more fun in person and would probably make you cranky. Maybe you would enjoy the energy though like how old dogs live longer when they get around a puppy. After your last response I can guarantee we would spend the entire rest of the shift arguing knife disarms

 

[Shatteredzen]

If you're talking about me pointing out that I have never personally witnessed a smaller male or woman impose their will on a bigger, stronger person utilizing Aikido, I stand by that observation. Considering we have examples of smaller BJJ or submission grappling practitioners overcoming larger opponents, but no such examples in the history of Aikido on youtube, I feel that that belief is warranted.

fixed it for you

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If they read that crowd they wouldn't have. One guy had on brass knuckles. I think most people would have pick the option not to wade into that fight,

Jumping into a fight where you are clearly out number is not the intelligent thing to do. No matter how heroic you may want to be. Which is why the BJJ ended up the way he did. The fact that he ended up in the hospital pretty much verifies that.

I’m not debating whether it’s smart or not. I’m just saying I think it’s something not really style-dependent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course they're talking about catching the weapon with their hands

I’ve literally never seen an Aikido demo or class with this in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No Hanzou, that's called Judo.

Which is the original base of BJJ. What’s your point?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Which is the original base of BJJ. What’s your point?

We were talking about where the moves come from, not if they are included in BJJ

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BJJ has its own techniques, just because it commonly incorporates Judo techniques or wrestling techniques does not make them part of BJJ. If you get to claim Judo for BJJ then the same can be said for Aikido, since they are both derivative arts from Judo and Aikido was originally intended to be taught to dan level Judoka.

Firstly, Judo moves were the first BJJ moves (BJJ folks correct me if I’m overstating here). Secondly, if a move is incorporated i to a system, it becomes part of that system. Thirdly, BJJ is not defined by techniques, but by their approach - which includes incorporating new techniques from elsewhere if they work for BJJ.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Firstly, Judo moves were the first BJJ moves (BJJ folks correct me if I’m overstating here). Secondly, if a move is incorporated i to a system, it becomes part of that system. Thirdly, BJJ is not defined by techniques, but by their approach - which includes incorporating new techniques from elsewhere if they work for BJJ.

You heard it here first folks, I hereby claim Judo for Aikido. Hanzou, I won't charge you royalties for the guillotine choke anymore.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's just another red herring to shift the argument. I also have never seen the "florida man loses gang fight because of bad Aikido" newspaper article.

First Aikido People can't fight then Aikido People will fight because Aikido People think they can beat up everyone. Prior to that Aikido People are viewed as taking a peaceful path that help develop mind, spirit , and body. But now Aikido People are incapable of knowing the reality about the dangers of fighting against multiple people.

To be honest I think Aikido people have a better understanding of that reality than most as they try to pull off techniques against incoming attacks that they need to flow with. With out messing up. There's nothing about Radori that would make a person think that this is how it really looks when multiple people attack

He probably has a better understanding than most the difficulty with fighting multiple people. I'm sure he also has an excellent understanding the difficulty of fighting multiple people using Aikido techniques. There is just nothing about trying to do Aikido techniques that would suddenly make people think they are ready to beat up 10 attackers

Just like Kung Fu. People go in thinking that they are going to be a Kung Fu Fighter then find that it's a lot more difficult than what they originally had in their mind.