Aikido.. The reality?

[jayoliver00]

I think Steve's point was that MMA moves are allowed within Dog Brothers ruleset, so anything MMA is kinda part of DB competition. Just depends whether anyone brings that or not, and what the individual competitors want to focus on.

I meant that MMA is still more violent & brutal than these Dog Bros' allowed weapons; mostly due to all the safety gear negating the head strikes. While getting punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed to the head at full power in MMA is much more damaging. That's why people with at these events with decent MMA skills (after dropping their sticks & go MMA H2H) would beat those with, ie. the escrima sticks; usually by taking a few shots to close the distance, then TD to GNP.

He suggested that I try this, afterwhich I told him 3x that it's already been proven to be true in their videos.

 

[Steve]

I just explained it to you twice already that this has happened a few times in these Dog Bros. meet and with success (where MMA striking/submission won vs. those wielding the weapons allowed). This is the 3rd time now, so you're welcome (again). LOL.

I went back to read that first post again, and I'm still not clear on how "current MMA" is more brutal than a Dog Brothers event. When I pointed out that you can use MMA techniques freely in a Dog Brothers event, and nothing was stopping you from doing so, you started talking in circles. Now you're explaining to me that people actually do this in Dog Brothers events with success, so I'm going to ask again... what's your actual point?

 

[jayoliver00]

I went back to read that first post again, and I'm still not clear on how "current MMA" is more brutal than a Dog Brothers event. When I pointed out that you can use MMA techniques freely in a Dog Brothers event, and nothing was stopping you from doing so, you started talking in circles. Now you're explaining to me that people actually do this in Dog Brothers events with success, so I'm going to ask again... what's your actual point?

Just hang tight. I'll be back in a few hours, then I'll help you out.

 

[Graywalker]

Me I like the Aikido footwork, I find it useful in evading. Although, I will say that my experience training in it, is limited.

 

[Flying Crane]

I meant that MMA is still more violent & brutal than these Dog Bros' allowed weapons; mostly due to all the safety gear negating the head strikes. While getting punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed to the head at full power in MMA is much more damaging. That's why people with at these events with decent MMA skills (after dropping their sticks & go MMA H2H) would beat those with, ie. the escrima sticks; usually by taking a few shots to close the distance, then TD to GNP.

He suggested that I try this, afterwhich I told him 3x that it's already been proven to be true in their videos.

I want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying. The DB events utilize safety gear to negate the damaging effects of the weapons, so that the participants don’t go home with broken fingers and smashed skulls. These are friendly bouts, intended for learning, after all. In that environment, where protective equipment is negating the advantage of the weapons, dropping the weapon and engaging in the use of MMA techniques and tactics can be more decisive. One can simply ignore the weapon and take their opponent down. Although it seems to me that isn’t really the point of this kind of weapons training. But whatever.

Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.

If you are saying that mma techniques and tactics would be advantageous over the use of these weapons in an absolute way, then I cannot agree. If the safety equipment were removed, the weapons used were real and not a lightweight version meant for safety of participants, and this was a determined life-or- death encounter, then I cannot agree that the mma approach would be advantageous.

I feel confident that if I had a good stout hickory stick or staff, the room to use it properly with no inhibitions on that use, and an mma-trained enemy trying to do me bodily harm or kill me, then that mma fellow will end up with broken hands and a smashed skull before he can get close enough to engage with me.

if I am misunderstanding your point, please clarify.

 

[Martial D]

I want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying. The DB events utilize safety gear to negate the damaging effects of the weapons, so that the participants don’t go home with broken fingers and smashed skulls. These are friendly bouts, intended for learning, after all. In that environment, where protective equipment is negating the advantage of the weapons, dropping the weapon and engaging in the use of MMA techniques and tactics can be more decisive. One can simply ignore the weapon and take their opponent down. Although it seems to me that isn’t really the point of this kind of weapons training. But whatever.

Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.

If you are saying that mma techniques and tactics would be advantageous over the use of these weapons in an absolute way, then I cannot agree. If the safety equipment were removed, the weapons used were real and not a lightweight version meant for safety of participants, and this was a determined life-or- death encounter, then I cannot agree that the mma approach would be advantageous.

I feel confident that if I had a good stout hickory stick or staff, the room to use it properly with no inhibitions on that use, and an mma-trained enemy trying to do me bodily harm or kill me, then that mma fellow will end up with broken hands and a smashed skull before he can get close enough to engage with me.

if I am misunderstanding your point, please clarify.

Right? It's like if you train with padded weapons and you block with your forearm. Sure. Great approach against padded weapons. Not so great when it counts unless you can tie your shoes with one hand.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Right? It's like if you train with padded weapons and you block with your forearm. Sure. Great approach against padded weapons. Not so great when it counts unless you can tie your shoes with one hand.

This is one of the issues I see a lot in protected weapon sparring and simulated attacks (where the "attacker" is simply given a job). There is often far less self-protection going on than most people would exhibit. Tell me I just have to stab/cut you, and I can do that. Tell me I have to do that without getting hurt, and I'll be able to do that less often.

 

[Urban Trekker]

.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying. The DB events utilize safety gear to negate the damaging effects of the weapons, so that the participants don’t go home with broken fingers and smashed skulls. These are friendly bouts, intended for learning, after all. In that environment, where protective equipment is negating the advantage of the weapons, dropping the weapon and engaging in the use of MMA techniques and tactics can be more decisive. One can simply ignore the weapon and take their opponent down. Although it seems to me that isn’t really the point of this kind of weapons training. But whatever.

Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.

If you are saying that mma techniques and tactics would be advantageous over the use of these weapons in an absolute way, then I cannot agree. If the safety equipment were removed, the weapons used were real and not a lightweight version meant for safety of participants, and this was a determined life-or- death encounter, then I cannot agree that the mma approach would be advantageous.

I feel confident that if I had a good stout hickory stick or staff, the room to use it properly with no inhibitions on that use, and an mma-trained enemy trying to do me bodily harm or kill me, then that mma fellow will end up with broken hands and a smashed skull before he can get close enough to engage with me.

if I am misunderstanding your point, please clarify.

Right? It's like if you train with padded weapons and you block with your forearm. Sure. Great approach against padded weapons. Not so great when it counts unless you can tie your shoes with one hand.

This is one of the issues I see a lot in protected weapon sparring and simulated attacks (where the "attacker" is simply given a job). There is often far less self-protection going on than most people would exhibit. Tell me I just have to stab/cut you, and I can do that. Tell me I have to do that without getting hurt, and I'll be able to do that less often.

Although I can appreciate what all three of you are saying from a critical standpoint, the flip side of the argument is that people are getting the opportunity to ratchet up their weapons work in a 'safer' context. Sure you will get people that will block blades with padded forearms in the heat of the moment but that is also a learning point to go back and review so that it can be improved upon moving forward. Again, too much reliance on the padding can create 'lazy' technique but with the right mindset, that padding can also show vulnerabilities while not having to suffer the consequences of losing the arm. Basically, I am saying you get out what you put in. If you are LARPing for the fun of LARPing, LARP away. You may not get any better but that may not be your point. However, if you are looking to test where your current skillset is in a more realistic fashion without having to suffer real injuries, this type of training can move you closer to that goal.

 

[Martial D]

Although I can appreciate what all three of you are saying from a critical standpoint, the flip side of the argument is that people are getting the opportunity to ratchet up their weapons work in a 'safer' context. Sure you will get people that will block blades with padded forearms in the heat of the moment but that is also a learning point to go back and review so that it can be improved upon moving forward. Again, too much reliance on the padding can create 'lazy' technique but with the right mindset, that padding can also show vulnerabilities while not having to suffer the consequences of losing the arm. Basically, I am saying you get out what you put in. If you are LARPing for the fun of LARPing, LARP away. You may not get any better but that may not be your point. However, if you are looking to test where your current skillset is in a more realistic fashion without having to suffer real injuries, this type of training can move you closer to that goal.

Well, sure. So long as you keep in mind what you are training for. The overarching thread that grappling and striking (MMA) is better than using weapons is only true when you have gear that negates the weapons. This was the point being made.

 

[Flying Crane]

Although I can appreciate what all three of you are saying from a critical standpoint, the flip side of the argument is that people are getting the opportunity to ratchet up their weapons work in a 'safer' context. Sure you will get people that will block blades with padded forearms in the heat of the moment but that is also a learning point to go back and review so that it can be improved upon moving forward. Again, too much reliance on the padding can create 'lazy' technique but with the right mindset, that padding can also show vulnerabilities while not having to suffer the consequences of losing the arm. Basically, I am saying you get out what you put in. If you are LARPing for the fun of LARPing, LARP away. You may not get any better but that may not be your point. However, if you are looking to test where your current skillset is in a more realistic fashion without having to suffer real injuries, this type of training can move you closer to that goal.

No argument from me, and that was really the point I was making. The safety measures make for a learning environment and that requires a certain give-and-take and a willingness to respect the attacks. But I hope nobody is making assumptions that an mma trained person would have some kind of automatic advantage over the weapon user, if the confrontation was for keeps and the safety measures are not in place.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Well, sure. So long as you keep in mind what you are training for. The overarching thread that grappling and striking (MMA) is better than using weapons is only true when you have gear that negates the weapons. This was the point being made.

I would think that skill level and experience can also negate the use of weapons as well as multiple attackers but, all things being equal, having a weapon should give one an advantage over an opponent that has none.

The peanut gallery

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Although I can appreciate what all three of you are saying from a critical standpoint, the flip side of the argument is that people are getting the opportunity to ratchet up their weapons work in a 'safer' context. Sure you will get people that will block blades with padded forearms in the heat of the moment but that is also a learning point to go back and review so that it can be improved upon moving forward. Again, too much reliance on the padding can create 'lazy' technique but with the right mindset, that padding can also show vulnerabilities while not having to suffer the consequences of losing the arm. Basically, I am saying you get out what you put in. If you are LARPing for the fun of LARPing, LARP away. You may not get any better but that may not be your point. However, if you are looking to test where your current skillset is in a more realistic fashion without having to suffer real injuries, this type of training can move you closer to that goal.

This is pretty much what I was saying. It's something you have to keep in mind - it changes the dynamics a bit, but every training tool has a compromise involved.

 

[jayoliver00]

I want to be sure I am clear on what you are saying. The DB events utilize safety gear to negate the damaging effects of the weapons, so that the participants don’t go home with broken fingers and smashed skulls. These are friendly bouts, intended for learning, after all. In that environment, where protective equipment is negating the advantage of the weapons, dropping the weapon and engaging in the use of MMA techniques and tactics can be more decisive. One can simply ignore the weapon and take their opponent down. Although it seems to me that isn’t really the point of this kind of weapons training. But whatever.

Is that what you are saying? I can agree with that.

If you are saying that mma techniques and tactics would be advantageous over the use of these weapons in an absolute way, then I cannot agree. If the safety equipment were removed, the weapons used were real and not a lightweight version meant for safety of participants, and this was a determined life-or- death encounter, then I cannot agree that the mma approach would be advantageous.

I feel confident that if I had a good stout hickory stick or staff, the room to use it properly with no inhibitions on that use, and an mma-trained enemy trying to do me bodily harm or kill me, then that mma fellow will end up with broken hands and a smashed skull before he can get close enough to engage with me.

if I am misunderstanding your point, please clarify.

Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying.

When it comes to sparring or fighting with as much brutality & real violence as possible, MMA offers the highest level by far.

But it doesn't mean that MMA beats weapons, especially blades. I train with sticks, knives, swords, long swords, spears, glaives, etc. pretty religiously, at least 2-3 hours a week. They're all fake and blunt but the skills are real. Pretty sure I can win a sword fight to the death vs. most UFC fighters; while there are many overweight, Larping nerds that can destroy me in such sword fights yet they can't sprint 20 yards w/o gassing.

 

[Yokozuna514]

This is pretty much what I was saying. It's something you have to keep in mind - it changes the dynamics a bit, but every training tool has a compromise involved.

Ok to be fair, I do see what you are saying. My sticking point is the 'compromise'. That implies a negative connotation (being critical) when evaluating something. Yes, we can and should do that from time to time but there is also another way to look at it from a more positive standpoint. Instead of looking at DB matches and picking out the areas of 'compromise' we can look at the very same thing and focus on the more 'positive' attributes of the exercise. Different strokes for different folks but that was all I was trying to say. My point is no more valid than yours, just seemingly............different ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

These are friendly bouts, intended for learning, after all. In that environment, where protective equipment is negating the advantage of the weapons, dropping the weapon and engaging in the use of MMA techniques and tactics can be more decisive. One can simply ignore the weapon and take their opponent down.

I agree with this. Even though the padding protects against the weapons, They should acknowledge the weapon strike with the understanding that without the padding, the strike would be very damaging. This is the same issue I talk about in regards to "acknowledging strikes that land but do not land hard." Those strikes just can't be ignored without creating degraded learning and without creating failed solutions.

If a person needs to be hit with an actual weapon to understand this, then it would be safe to say that the person lacks some basic awareness and understanding of a "fight situation." They are unable to identify damaging strikes and weaknesses that would exist without the padding.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying.

When it comes to sparring or fighting with as much brutality & real violence as possible, MMA offers the highest level by far.

But it doesn't mean that MMA beats weapons, especially blades. I train with sticks, knives, swords, long swords, spears, glaives, etc. pretty religiously, at least 2-3 hours a week. They're all fake and blunt but the skills are real. Pretty sure I can win a sword fight to the death vs. most UFC fighters; while there are many overweight, Larping nerds that can destroy me in such sword fights yet they can't sprint 20 yards w/o gassing.

Depends on the system. A lot of weapons systems are drill or forms based. And therefore the edge they would have over an untrained guy would be minimal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would think that skill level and experience can also negate the use of weapons as well as multiple attackers but, all things being equal, having a weapon should give one an advantage over an opponent that has none.

The peanut gallery

The type of weapon being used and skill of the person makes a difference. If a person doesn't know how to fight with certain weapons then it's better to not have it. Staff, Three section staff, Chain Whip, Baseball bat, and some other weapons may put the person in worse position trying to use it,

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends on the system. A lot of weapons systems are drill or forms based.

This shouldn't matter because it's up to the practitioner to take it to the next level. Sort of how I've taking my staff training to the next level so that I can eventually free spar without equipment.

 

[Steve]

Anyone know the actual rules for a dog brothers match?

And to try and rope this back to the topic of the thread, how do we think an aikidoka would fare vs folks who train in other styles or training models?