Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

I don't mean to cherry pick your post, but there are exceptions to one thing. In police work, at least all the police work I've been involved in, you try your damnedest not to hurt the person you're arresting or trying to separate from others.

Sometimes you might want to smack the crap out of them, but you just can't.

Police have a really tough job. Because a lot of what they do requires them to arrest people. So a lot of they people that most of us would punch are the same people that police after to try to arrest so that the person can be tried in the court of law. Because of the role and responsibility that they have, they shouldn't play the role of , jury, judge, and executioner unless it's necessary to ensure their safety or the safety of others.

The responsibility that the police should live up to plays an important role in keeping peace and greatly reduces the desire for citizens to feel like they have to "get back at someone." Not an easy job by any means.

Ok but you could compare that to a ballet class.

I wouldn't ask a ballet class about their ballet techniques for fighting. I would based my questions on what they train. So my question would be, what the best technique for jumping, certain ballet moves, and maybe flexibility, since they have no shortage of that.

People who train to fight talk differently than those who train for zen. We don't even talk in the same tone. We don't even have the same focus. Your gym focuses on fighting. Their school focuses on the development of the mind and spirit. The only development of the mind that fighters deal with is the fear and anxiety that often comes with the reality of strikes. Learning how to calm the mind, read the punch, block cover, good head movement. That stuff doesn't come up in classes that focus on health and spiritual development.

 

[Martial D]

Police have a really tough job. Because a lot of what they do requires them to arrest people. So a lot of they people that most of us would punch are the same people that police after to try to arrest so that the person can be tried in the court of law. Because of the role and responsibility that they have, they shouldn't play the role of , jury, judge, and executioner unless it's necessary to ensure their safety or the safety of others.

The responsibility that the police should live up to plays an important role in keeping peace and greatly reduces the desire for citizens to feel like they have to "get back at someone." Not an easy job by any means.


I wouldn't ask a ballet class about their ballet techniques for fighting. I would based my questions on what they train. So my question would be, what the best technique for jumping, certain ballet moves, and maybe flexibility, since they have no shortage of that.

People who train to fight talk differently than those who train for zen. We don't even talk in the same tone. We don't even have the same focus. Your gym focuses on fighting. Their school focuses on the development of the mind and spirit. The only development of the mind that fighters deal with is the fear and anxiety that often comes with the reality of strikes. Learning how to calm the mind, read the punch, block cover, good head movement. That stuff doesn't come up in classes that focus on health and spiritual development.

When you train BJJ you get that same development of 'mind and spirit' but to a far greater extent because it's based on something real.
The zen mindstate you can find while you are live rolling is an ALIVE zen, I'll put that up against any repetition of form.

In BJJ you learn breath control because you HAVE to, where as in many others it's just part of a pattern.

In BJJ you learn REAL humility, as you will be tapping out a lot, and often. Compare this with the structured and preordained humility you learn in a structured sensei/sifu student relationship..where humility is simply expected.

Just an example, point being TMA does not have a monopoly on the 'mind and spirit' angle by any means.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never heard any SD instructor take this view. Not sure where you get it from that term.

One night I walked in a dark alley in Rio de Janeiro, a guy had his back against the wall, he looked at me, looked at my watch, looked at me, and looked at my watch again. He then turned his head around. Next night I had blue jean and leather jacket on with my long hair (a long hair China man can be scary). I stood at exactly the same spot. When people passed by, I looked at them. Everybody walked on the other side of the street and tried to stay away from me. I then realized that I could be the bad guy too.

I then realized that if I'm the bad guy, everybody on this planet are all good guys. The world will be a nice place to live.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I get it though. If you are in your 40s or older, you probably remember a time where people weren't so afraid of eachother. Maybe even when people didn't lock their houses or cars. Now everyone sees a stranger as a potential threat instead of a potential friend. It's sad really.

Yeah, and that’s a media thing, mostly. Blaming that on the term “self-defense” is odd.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One night I walked in a dark alley in Rio de Janeiro, a guy had his back against the wall, he looked at me, looked at my watch, looked at me, and looked at my watch again. He then turned his head around. Next night I had blue jean and leather jacket on with my long hair (a long hair China man can be scary). I stood at exactly the same spot. When people passed by, I looked at them. Everybody walked on the other side of the street and tried to stay away from me. I then realized that I could be the bad guy too.

I then realized that if I'm the bad guy, everybody on this planet are all good guys. The world will be a nice place to live.

Still not sure what any of that has to do with the term “self-defense”.

 

[Buka]

Still not sure what any of that has to do with the term “self-defense”.

Maybe it does a little bit. I know of a couple of people nobody would ever mess with, not because they're big, or even all that scary looking....unless they project a certain look. They have a certain knack for looking a certain way.

One of them, I always ask, "what if someone calls your bluff?" He always replies, "Bite your tongue, don't say that! But so far so good."

We always have a good laugh afterwards.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Still not sure what any of that has to do with the term “self-defense”.

To learn SD is to force your opponent to play SD against you.

 

[Urban Trekker]

One of them, I always ask, "what if someone calls your bluff?" He always replies, "Bite your tongue, don't say that! But so far so good."

This is not uncommon at all where I live. And there are ways they do this without being confrontational.

An example might be to strike up a friendly conversation with you to assess your overall demeanor. Some might even take this a step further by asking questions that cross most people's personal boundaries to see whether or not you've got the nuts to enforce them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you train BJJ you get that same development of 'mind and spirit' but to a far greater extent because it's based on something real.

This is my same position, not only to BJJ but to other martial arts that focus on the fighting. There's a lot more to fighting then just fighting. Strategy, conquering fears both real, and confidence base, working with uncertainty, controlling one's emotion by not not getting frustrated or angry. Timing, learning about body mechanics and human behavior. Personally believe there's very little that can be learned about human behavior when everything is scripted. Learn about healing and taking care of injuries, understanding balance. All of that stuff and more helps to develop "the mind and spirit" more so than trying to "cut the mind and spirit parts" out of a system and only do that. I think people short change themselves when they do that. I even think Tai Chi for health should focus more on the fighting functions, even if they are old. If they understand the function then they can move in a way that will give them better results all around. Move with purpose.

The zen mindstate you can find while you are live rolling is an ALIVE zen, I'll put that up against any repetition of form

You can find zen in doing forms and repetition but they have to be "Alive" it can't be lazy. Zen only comes when you put in the work and really push the body. "Runners high" is a common zen state. I'm not sure if you ever experienced it before but it's one of the best feelings a person can feel. Same with sparring. Some days you have those days where you see everything even though things are moving fast. It's a calm and clarity that you won't get by doing easy work outs. Some get it during tough workouts where that one day you may feel super strong and it seems like your normal workout has just gotten really easy. Training like you and I are describing puts us in the present time. Anything that was stressing us out or making us worried disappears after 5 minutes into training. It allows people to drop everything and focus on what is going on now. Forms training helps to focus on mindfulness. Same with drills. My personal experience is that I'm able to reach such levels easier when I train than if I'm just sitting there trying to meditate and do absolutely nothing.

In BJJ you learn breath control because you HAVE to, where as in many others it's just part of a pattern

This is the same with kung fu and many other physical activities. Running forces the the mind to pay attention to the breathing and how it works with the body.

Just an example, point being TMA does not have a monopoly on the 'mind and spirit' angle by any means.

I totally agree. just like my comments above, I listed other ways I've experienced Zen. I don't buy into the idea that it's only a TMA thing that can only be accomplished by TMA. I believe other people experience it when they say that the are "in the zone." This experience is more consistent among people than the concept of what Zen means.

 

[Shatteredzen]

This is my same position, not only to BJJ but to other martial arts that focus on the fighting. There's a lot more to fighting then just fighting. Strategy, conquering fears both real, and confidence base, working with uncertainty, controlling one's emotion by not not getting frustrated or angry. Timing, learning about body mechanics and human behavior. Personally believe there's very little that can be learned about human behavior when everything is scripted. Learn about healing and taking care of injuries, understanding balance. All of that stuff and more helps to develop "the mind and spirit" more so than trying to "cut the mind and spirit parts" out of a system and only do that. I think people short change themselves when they do that. I even think Tai Chi for health should focus more on the fighting functions, even if they are old. If they understand the function then they can move in a way that will give them better results all around. Move with purpose.


You can find zen in doing forms and repetition but they have to be "Alive" it can't be lazy. Zen only comes when you put in the work and really push the body. "Runners high" is a common zen state. I'm not sure if you ever experienced it before but it's one of the best feelings a person can feel. Same with sparring. Some days you have those days where you see everything even though things are moving fast. It's a calm and clarity that you won't get by doing easy work outs. Some get it during tough workouts where that one day you may feel super strong and it seems like your normal workout has just gotten really easy. Training like you and I are describing puts us in the present time. Anything that was stressing us out or making us worried disappears after 5 minutes into training. It allows people to drop everything and focus on what is going on now. Forms training helps to focus on mindfulness. Same with drills. My personal experience is that I'm able to reach such levels easier when I train than if I'm just sitting there trying to meditate and do absolutely nothing.


This is the same with kung fu and many other physical activities. Running forces the the mind to pay attention to the breathing and how it works with the body.


I totally agree. just like my comments above, I listed other ways I've experienced Zen. I don't buy into the idea that it's only a TMA thing that can only be accomplished by TMA. I believe other people experience it when they say that the are "in the zone." This experience is more consistent among people than the concept of what Zen means.

Zen is a very specific concept, you are mistaking the idea of "flow state" for "zen". I would really google "zen" because you have used it a bunch of times now throughout the thread and its been incorrect every time. Zen is a specific set of philosophies from the Japanese sect of Mahayana Buddhism of the same name that focuses on "mushin no shin" or "mind with no mind". Specifically, freeing oneself from physical attachments and emotions through mental discipline and logic. As a meditative state it is referring to a state of spiritual tranquility free of physicality, not the feeling of elation you get from exercise.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Zen is a very specific concept, you are mistaking the idea of "flow state" for "zen". I would really google "zen" because you have used it a bunch of times now throughout the thread and its been incorrect every time. Zen is a specific set of philosophies from the Japanese sect of Mahayana Buddhism of the same name that focuses on "mushin no shin" or "mind with no mind". Specifically, freeing oneself from physical attachments and emotions through mental discipline and logic. As a meditative state it is referring to a state of spiritual tranquility free of physicality, not the feeling of elation you get from exercise.

CMA also use this approach too.

When you

- run long distance,
- carry heavy weight,
- train human flag,
- train pole hanging,
- ...

you try to think about anything except your body. This way you can take more physical pain than you normally can.

 

[drop bear]

I wouldn't ask a ballet class about their ballet techniques for fighting. I would based my questions on what they train. So my question would be, what the best technique for jumping, certain ballet moves, and maybe flexibility, since they have no shortage of that.

Not really that. Ask a ballet club how many people have avoided a fight.

And you would probably get the same result as highly trained martial artists.

 

[drop bear]

People who train to fight talk differently than those who train for zen. We don't even talk in the same tone. We don't even have the same focus. Your gym focuses on fighting. Their school focuses on the development of the mind and spirit. The only development of the mind that fighters deal with is the fear and anxiety that often comes with the reality of strikes. Learning how to calm the mind, read the punch, block cover, good head movement. That stuff doesn't come up in classes that focus on health and spiritual development.

Depends if you believe in either Nichze or stoicism.

 

[Hanzou]

When you train BJJ you get that same development of 'mind and spirit' but to a far greater extent because it's based on something real.
The zen mindstate you can find while you are live rolling is an ALIVE zen, I'll put that up against any repetition of form.

In BJJ you learn breath control because you HAVE to, where as in many others it's just part of a pattern.

In BJJ you learn REAL humility, as you will be tapping out a lot, and often. Compare this with the structured and preordained humility you learn in a structured sensei/sifu student relationship..where humility is simply expected.

Just an example, point being TMA does not have a monopoly on the 'mind and spirit' angle by any means.

I think you see this in all the ki-masters and phonies in TMAs. People like George Dillman who were arrogant enough to believe that he could trick people with his ki-magic BS, or simply believed he could actually do stuff like that is the height of arrogance. You also see it with the cult-like behavior that you see within some TMA circles. Rokas discussed that quite a bit in one of his videos.

Speaking of Rokas, he also talked about how he expected to be laughed at and taunted by the MMA community after he got embarrassed in that Aikido vs MMA video, but he was surprised at how many in that community applauded him and respected him for stepping to the plate and putting his art to the test. On the other hand, he said he was largely attacked and derided by the Aikido community at large who thought he was an idiot for using Aikido in a MMA sparring test. I will say that outside of some very rare instances, the Bjj community is one of the nicest and welcoming martial art communities I've ever experienced. There's a real down to earth feel to it, starting from calling your instructor by their first name, and everyone's actual skill being laid out in the open for all to see.

It's rather easy to smash egos in Bjj when you're a big burly wrestler getting submitted by a skinny teenager. The "mind and spirit" then enters the equation, and you wonder if you want to continue getting your ego smashed by continuing training, or if you want to pack up your ego and leave. Many choose the latter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To learn SD is to force your opponent to play SD against you.

That makes no sense to me.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Generally speaking, an enraged attacker is going to have a higher pain threshold due to the endorphins released by that aggression. I know this seems counterintuitive for TMA, but that's why I don't mind matching that aggression. If I'm feeling cautious, I'm probably not going to be able to take as much punishment.

 

[Buka]

This is not uncommon at all where I live. And there are ways they do this without being confrontational.

An example might be to strike up a friendly conversation with you to assess your overall demeanor. Some might even take this a step further by asking questions that cross most people's personal boundaries to see whether or not you've got the nuts to enforce them.

Yes, sure. We usually refer to this as "the interview".

 

[jayoliver00]

Not quite ...

Still not as brutal as current MMA and definitely not as brutal as the early UFC's where you can do anything you wanted to win (with fines imposed) w/o worries of disqualification.

These Dog Brother meets, they're wearing safety gear. Sure it still hurts but it would cause more damage to just close the distance, take a few hits, drop the sticks and use MMA. GNP, armbar, heel hook, raining elbows to the head, etc. will cause more damage than being hit with sticks.

 

[Steve]

Still not as brutal as current MMA and definitely not as brutal as the early UFC's where you can do anything you wanted to win (with fines imposed) w/o worries of disqualification.

These Dog Brother meets, they're wearing safety gear. Sure it still hurts but it would cause more damage to just close the distance, take a few hits, drop the sticks and use MMA. GNP, armbar, heel hook, raining elbows to the head, etc. will cause more damage than being hit with sticks.

I think the ruleset at these events is flexible enough for you to try it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To learn SD is to force your opponent to play SD against you.

Only if you think of things as good and bad.

Zen is a very specific concept, you are mistaking the idea of "flow state" for "zen". I would really google "zen" because you have used it a bunch of times now throughout the thread and its been incorrect every time. Zen is a specific set of philosophies from the Japanese sect of Mahayana Buddhism of the same name that focuses on "mushin no shin" or "mind with no mind". Specifically, freeing oneself from physical attachments and emotions through mental discipline and logic. As a meditative state it is referring to a state of spiritual tranquility free of physicality, not the feeling of elation you get from exercise.

I have the correct definition. I'm not talking about or referring to "Flow state" Zen has multiple definitions. The feeling of elation from exercise is also not what I'm talking about.