Aikido.. The reality?

[O'Malley]

Thoroughly enjoyed the first video. Very explosive, and I liked the technique shown.

Don't know what to make of the second vid. Greg was trying to be nice I suppose, but yeah....

BTW, here's some submissions from knee on belly;

Is there some reason they couldn't be translated into Aikido?

I put the first video in there to show the type of grapplers Greg usually plays with. He can toy with most of the instructors he meets in those exchanges, unless they're prodigies like Loubersanes or Saladdine Parnasse.

Given the difference in size and grappling level (Tamaki doesn't grapple and trains aikido as an armed martial art, something I don't necessarily agree with) I find that Tamaki fared pretty well (way better than the Rokas guy). On the one hand, he didn't submit Greg apart from a fingerlock that caught him by surprise, but we're talking about a guy who can defend against Loubersanes. On the other hand, Tamaki successfully defended most of the time and recovered nicely from the failed rokkyo (you might know this as ude hishigi hara gatame) which left his back exposed. Most importantly, in the debrief Greg commented on Tamaki's surprising power, which is a direct result of good aikido training. He couldn't break Tamaki's posture or move/uproot him and his "wins" in the sparring came from the overwhelming difference in grappling technique and tactics, which was expected.

As for the attacks from KoB, there's no reason they couldn't be brought to aikido. We have bayonet stabs, everything goes.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I guess he's talking about me.

I simply told him that instead of claiming that Rokas from MA Journey is misrepresenting his art and criticizing his technique, he should do what Rokas did and spar with a MMA fighter and film the results.

Interesting that he views that as someone telling him to participate in a "MMA death match".

You were met with the same childish absurdity as your argument, also, you left out your demand that I challenge the entire BJJ community and revolutionize MMA. Kinda like how you went from talking out of your *** yesterday about Aikido being all wristlocks and today after I corrected you and informed you how dumb you were being, you are trying to name drop three of the six principles like you have a clue as to what your talking about. Also, you forgot to tell everyone about how you wussed out of my counter challenge that you film yourself beating up a couple of random Aikido guys, heck, they could have been white belts and you still weren't up to it.

 

[Hanzou]

I put the first video in there to show the type of grapplers Greg usually plays with. He can toy with most of the instructors he meets in those exchanges, unless they're prodigies like Loubersanes or Saladdine Parnasse.

Given the difference in size and grappling level (Tamaki doesn't grapple and trains aikido as an armed martial art, something I don't necessarily agree with) I find that Tamaki fared pretty well (way better than the Rokas guy). On the one hand, he didn't submit Greg apart from a fingerlock that caught him by surprise, but we're talking about a guy who can defend against Loubersanes. On the other hand, Tamaki successfully defended most of the time and recovered nicely from the failed rokkyo (you might know this as ude hishigi hara gatame) which left his back exposed. Most importantly, in the debrief Greg commented on Tamaki's surprising power, which is a direct result of good aikido training. He couldn't break Tamaki's posture or move/uproot him and his "wins" in the sparring came from the overwhelming difference in grappling technique and tactics, which was expected.

I understand that, and also thought Tamaki did impressively well all things considered. I would like to see Greg going full blast though. At the end of their friendly back and forth, he didn't break Tamaki's headlock, which assured me that he was just playing around.

As for the attacks from KoB, there's no reason they couldn't be brought to aikido. We have bayonet stabs, everything goes.

Indeed, which makes me wonder why they aren't. Also I do believe that Aikido only has one choke? Is that true, and if so why?

 

[Shatteredzen]

So you are saying it doesn't work in competition because it doesn't teach you to deal with striking or grappling.

Yet for (reasons unknown) these shortcomings don't apply to outside a cage. Ok.

And the only rules you went over were the two afformentioned ones(wrist locks being illegal and greased fighters being legal) you were mistaken about. You could say it's the gloves but they actually make it easier to maintain a grip on the wrist. I'm quite sure aikido does not rely on rabbit punching, groin strikes, eye pokes or 12 to 6 elbows, and we are all out of rules.

Again, I'm not trying to bag on you, just trying to get some clarity on the claims you have been making..but it's still not adding up to anything consistent.

I don't see this discussion progressing any further.

Neither do I, I've written you and the other two a novel at this point and have only met absurdity, strawmen, fallacy and reductionist arguments instead of any actual consistent logic or even polite conversation from you. Once again, that's not the same as proof that Aikido doesn't work, its just a problem with your logic and communication skills.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah but I have had Bundy in a can

I have also had Bundy in a can, delicious, but not Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

You were met with the same childish absurdity as your argument, also, you left out your demand that I challenge the entire BJJ community and revolutionize MMA. Kinda like how you went from talking out of your *** yesterday about Aikido being all wristlocks and today after I corrected you and informed you how dumb you were being, you are trying to name drop three of the six principles like you have a clue as to what your talking about. Also, you forgot to tell everyone about how you wussed out of my counter challenge that you film yourself beating up a couple of random Aikido guys, heck, they could have been white belts and you still weren't up to it.

I wasn't the one saying that I was better than a public martial artist. I also wasn't the one saying that MMA and wrestling techniques only work in the ring. Again, I simply said if you think Rokas is doing terrible technique and you can do better, step up to the plate.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I wasn't the one saying that I was better than a public martial artist. I also wasn't the one saying that MMA and wrestling techniques only work in the ring. Again, I simply said if you think Rokas is doing terrible technique and you can do better, step up to the plate.

You attempted to reframe the argument into a strawman, I refused and that led to a series of internet tough guy comments demanding that I fight the entire BJJ community. If you bothered to read, ever, you would see I had an issue with the video and the way it was presented, but you were so caught up in defending the honor of youtubers that you went right into full pedantic teenager mode (which I see you have not left today) like a kid who didn't get his black dragon fighting society membership card in the mail.

 

[Hanzou]

You attempted to reframe the argument into a strawman, I refused and that led to a series of internet tough guy comments demanding that I fight the entire BJJ community. If you bothered to read, ever, you would see I had an issue with the video and the way it was presented, but you were so caught up in defending the honor of youtubers that you went right into full pedantic teenager mode (which I see you have not left today) like a kid who didn't get his black dragon fighting society membership card in the mail.

Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Anyone is free to go back through our back and forth to avoid your silly straw man recollections.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I teach exactly the opposite of this, and I suspect my view is more accurate for Aikido, as well. The entry to a grappling technique is where the control starts. Fail the entry, and there is no technique available. A good entry is what makes the next step possible, and a single entry can lead to multiple options. If they counter late in the entry, that usually just means there's a different finish. Or it's time to punch them.

Yes, the entry, breaking the line of the opponents attack and the positioning from the opponents center line is very central to Aikido principle and application. I use the same principles regarding those entries and have found that they work well for applying other techniques outside of Aikido as well as complementary ones, like Judo or even striking.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about here. Anyone is free to go back through our back and forth to avoid your silly straw man recollections.

They are indeed, there's ample examples of your logical fallacy and poor rhetoric throughout at this point.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Just found this excellent video series on Morihiro Saito's traditional approach to aikido.

Here, he gives some explanations about the "fluid" number of aikido techniques, and how he could come up with almost infinite variations on one technique: Takemusu-aiki-curriculum-(1994-09).mp4

Here, he discusses application. Oyo-waza are techniques from the kata applied to a particular situation (e.g. sparring), while henka-waza is the term for when you try a technique, it doesn't work and then you switch to another one: Oyowaza-and-henkawaza-(1992-09).mp4

I've often wondered why I had never been taught oyo-waza. No teacher says "ok now we're doing applications" and there's almost no trace of them in reference books. From Saito's explanation above, I get that teaching oyo-waza would be moot: I can't teach you adaptability by teaching the 7th oyo-waza version of X technique which is only appropriate when uke has his weight on his nearest foot. Instead I teach the basic form as a drill, and you're expected to make it work.

This clarifies a bit the training model of aikido. That said, I still think that the sparring/randori format could be improved (a lot) to facilitate learning oyo-waza and henka-waza. It's a big part of what makes competitive styles like BJJ, judo and wrestling effective, along with more extensive technical and tactical study.

Bruce Bookman has some great ideas on oyo-waza and henka-waza. See how he has systematized follow ups to classical aikido technique:

First, here's the classical shiho nage:

Now, here's Bookman's shiho nage to sankyo:

Here's a sankyo follow up when uke rolls out of it:

Although I'm more interested in the body skills developed by aikido because the techniques were poorly thought up, I think he's onto something with his work.

I've just started watching some of Chris Hein's videos after seeing his interview with Rokas, he discusses the same training issues and makes the very cogent point that Aikido is its own thing, its own set of skills and that its not something to force into being a swiss army knife for MMA or many of the other mistaken premises that usually frame these discussions. After hearing his interview I'm actually much more optimistic and excited about the whole of the Aikido community and its future in martial arts. The interview is here if you are interested.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I dunno. I still don’t know who the fellow is and don’t really care. But I don’t think he has earned back any respect, at least not in my book. He might simply try not being a douche in the first place. That whole thing of, it takes a thousand acts to build a reputation, and only one to destroy it.

sounds to me like he is simply a douche, no matter how he tries to conceal it.

He's walking the path that most anti-TMA people take. It usually starts with them spending many years training a TMA with the assumption that their training was functional even though they don't do sparring or application training (for me this is trying to use techniques in sparring it doesn't include application drills). He ends up sparring against someone loses and then bails out of the system he was training. During this bail outs he lumps other TMAs that have nothing to do with his failures and makes a statement that their TMA doesn't work.

He turns to MMA and as people show that they spar in their system, he slowly begins to learn. Its not the system, it's him. He started MMA with some really messed up assumptions and never once felt the need to test his own ability and his own understanding. So he shares his new skills sets through his MMA sparring. Just like this guy did. After the viewers see the MMA skills, they think, "Not what I expected. Must be him and not the system."

Then he get to the "Apology phase" where people show that he's wrong in his statements. MartialArtTutor did the same thing. Then somewhere down the line he may get back into training Aikido provided that someone can show him a functional version or he may just decide to teach to kids.

They all go down a similar path. Bad training or Non-Fucntional training makes them feel the need to invalidate other systems. They start training MMA and for some reason while training MMA they actually decide to open their eyes and look at themselves and not blame the system. In terms of Aikido he may have a harder time since he bought into the "Zen Life" with Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

He's walking the path that most anti-TMA people take. It usually starts with them spending many years training a TMA with the assumption that their training was functional even though they don't do sparring or application training (for me this is trying to use techniques in sparring it doesn't include application drills). He ends up sparring against someone loses and then bails out of the system he was training. During this bail outs he lumps other TMAs that have nothing to do with his failures and makes a statement that their TMA doesn't work.

He turns to MMA and as people show that they spar in their system, he slowly begins to learn. Its not the system, it's him. He started MMA with some really messed up assumptions and never once felt the need to test his own ability and his own understanding. So he shares his new skills sets through his MMA sparring. Just like this guy did. After the viewers see the MMA skills, they think, "Not what I expected. Must be him and not the system."

Then he get to the "Apology phase" where people show that he's wrong in his statements. MartialArtTutor did the same thing. Then somewhere down the line he may get back into training Aikido provided that someone can show him a functional version or he may just decide to teach to kids.

They all go down a similar path. Bad training or Non-Fucntional training makes them feel the need to invalidate other systems. They start training MMA and for some reason while training MMA they actually decide to open their eyes and look at themselves and not blame the system. In terms of Aikido he may have a harder time since he bought into the "Zen Life" with Aikido.

That really is an unfair rundown of that process. Whether we like it or not, fighting is a major aspect of martial arts. Some of us got into martial arts in the first place to learn how to fight. We really can't blame someone if they join a MA and they realize that the system their practicing doesn't view fighting as important or even a part of the system.

Further, you're placing the blame entirely on the practitioners. The blame frankly should be leveled at MA schools who are simply advertising falsities and are being dishonest to their students. If a student is questioning their MA and they test their MA against a highly established system and get creamed, or if they simply observe other martial arts and recognize that there's a planet-sized whole in their training, why wouldn't we expect them to do what people like Rokas did?

People don't do that because of ignorance or some sort of hatred of TMA. It's a combination of bad marketing on the part of TMAs, people being suckered into believing that all martial arts will turn you into Bruce Lee, and the piss-poor work effort of many Americans. This is exemplified by people who believe that they're "good" in their arts, so they can just cross over into a competitive MA and do just as well. Yeah, I've run across a few former TMA exponents who decided to cross over into MMA or BJJ, and they typically don't last. Some people don't like going to class and getting beat up or choked out over and over again. It can be mentally difficult to submit to someone else on a consistent basis.

 

[Flying Crane]

He's walking the path that most anti-TMA people take. It usually starts with them spending many years training a TMA with the assumption that their training was functional even though they don't do sparring or application training (for me this is trying to use techniques in sparring it doesn't include application drills). He ends up sparring against someone loses and then bails out of the system he was training. During this bail outs he lumps other TMAs that have nothing to do with his failures and makes a statement that their TMA doesn't work.

He turns to MMA and as people show that they spar in their system, he slowly begins to learn. Its not the system, it's him. He started MMA with some really messed up assumptions and never once felt the need to test his own ability and his own understanding. So he shares his new skills sets through his MMA sparring. Just like this guy did. After the viewers see the MMA skills, they think, "Not what I expected. Must be him and not the system."

Then he get to the "Apology phase" where people show that he's wrong in his statements. MartialArtTutor did the same thing. Then somewhere down the line he may get back into training Aikido provided that someone can show him a functional version or he may just decide to teach to kids.

They all go down a similar path. Bad training or Non-Fucntional training makes them feel the need to invalidate other systems. They start training MMA and for some reason while training MMA they actually decide to open their eyes and look at themselves and not blame the system. In terms of Aikido he may have a harder time since he bought into the "Zen Life" with Aikido.

Yeah, sounds like a douche. He gets no respect from me. I don’t know why anyone would feel compelled to even acknowledge his existence.

 

[drop bear]

good you've accepted the point, that we,all bring our own criteria to what being a proficient ma is

I hope this is an end to your mma is best, coz its objectively better diatribe, il miss you, as it's your only topic

We bring our own criteria if we are not thinking critically. Which is fine for religion, karate or Bundy. But less useful for discussing practical things.

 

[drop bear]

I guess he's talking about me.

I simply told him that instead of claiming that Rokas from MA Journey is misrepresenting his art and criticizing his technique, he should do what Rokas did and spar with a MMA fighter and film the results.

Interesting that he views that as someone telling him to participate in a "MMA death match".

Yeah. I found the quote everyone was reinventing.

It is a very practical example why I don't trust anecdotes.

 

[drop bear]

we seemed to be running through the well rehearsed argument that as, in this case aikido ( though it could be almost any tma) doesnt work in mma or bjj or judo that its useless for street defence.

iis that not the gist, it usually is,

I'm more than accepting of the notion that judo is extremly effective at dumping over weight drunks on the floor

i

Where as you are saying it does because street fighting is easier.

 

[geezer]

I dunno ...sounds to me like he is simply a douche, no matter how he tries to conceal it.

Douche? I never really got that impression. His whole martial arts journey" thing strikes a positive chord with me. He gets it wrong sometimes, but overall, I think he's sincere. He's also young and there is a lot he still hasn't seen.

 

[drop bear]

I have also had Bundy in a can, delicious, but not Aikido.

Nice

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Interesting. Aren’t those considered basic techniques? Why wouldn’t Aikidoka spend a lot of time on the basics?

I'm not experienced enough in that art to be able to answer that question.