Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

well yes that is possibly so, but I would have a very near to 1 probability of defeating them anyway, so the differance between turning up once a week to do karate and years of dedicated judoka training would be minnute

it would indeed be like me sparring with a complete beginner ,only one that is probebly drunk as well

If you’re an excellent striker and the Judoka has bad entry and can’t close the distance, certainly. However, if they can slip in and get their grips, you’re in trouble.

A lot of street fights wind up in a clinch contest. You don’t want to clinch up with a Judoka.

 

[jobo]

If you’re an excellent striker and the Judoka has bad entry and can’t close the distance, certainly. However, if they can slip in and get their grips, you’re in trouble.

A lot of street fights wind up in a clinch contest. You don’t want to clinch up with a Judoka.

I'm not fighting a judoka in this scenario, I'm fighting combatives that make up the over welcoming majority of street alterations

if they are not as strong as me, I win, if they cant match my cardio I win, if they are drunk I win, the only way I'm losing a one on one altercation with them is if they blind side me or I manage to fall over on my own

that's before we consider my striking and grappeling ability

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not fighting a judoka in this scenario, I'm fighting combatives that make up the over welcoming majority of street alterations

if they are not as strong as me, I win, if they cant match my cardio I win, if they are drunk I win, the only way I'm losing a one on one altercation with them is if they blind side me or I manage to fall over on my own

that's before we consider my striking and grappeling ability

Okay, but we're talking about MMA and competitive MAs not reflecting a street fight, and you saying that a Judoka needs to be adaptive.

I'm saying that a Judoka doesn't need to be all that adaptive for his training to be effective, because their training is almost entirely throwing people who are resisting them. Further, their training snowballs because the more skilled their opposition becomes, the better they become at throwing. Thus, the final product is someone who is EXTREMELY good at throwing someone.

 

[jobo]

Okay, but we're talking about MMA and competitive MAs not reflecting a street fight, and you saying that a Judoka needs to be adaptive.

I'm saying that a Judoka doesn't need to be all that adaptive for his training to be effective, because their training is almost entirely throwing people who are resisting them. Further, their training snowballs because the more skilled their opposition becomes, the better they become at throwing. Thus, the final product is someone who is EXTREMELY good at throwing someone.

we seemed to be running through the well rehearsed argument that as, in this case aikido ( though it could be almost any tma) doesnt work in mma or bjj or judo that its useless for street defence.

iis that not the gist, it usually is,

I'm more than accepting of the notion that judo is extremly effective at dumping over weight drunks on the floor

i

 

[O'Malley]

Just found this excellent video series on Morihiro Saito's traditional approach to aikido.

Here, he gives some explanations about the "fluid" number of aikido techniques, and how he could come up with almost infinite variations on one technique: Takemusu-aiki-curriculum-(1994-09).mp4

Here, he discusses application. Oyo-waza are techniques from the kata applied to a particular situation (e.g. sparring), while henka-waza is the term for when you try a technique, it doesn't work and then you switch to another one: Oyowaza-and-henkawaza-(1992-09).mp4

I've often wondered why I had never been taught oyo-waza. No teacher says "ok now we're doing applications" and there's almost no trace of them in reference books. From Saito's explanation above, I get that teaching oyo-waza would be moot: I can't teach you adaptability by teaching the 7th oyo-waza version of X technique which is only appropriate when uke has his weight on his nearest foot. Instead I teach the basic form as a drill, and you're expected to make it work.

This clarifies a bit the training model of aikido. That said, I still think that the sparring/randori format could be improved (a lot) to facilitate learning oyo-waza and henka-waza. It's a big part of what makes competitive styles like BJJ, judo and wrestling effective, along with more extensive technical and tactical study.

Bruce Bookman has some great ideas on oyo-waza and henka-waza. See how he has systematized follow ups to classical aikido technique:

First, here's the classical shiho nage:

Now, here's Bookman's shiho nage to sankyo:

Here's a sankyo follow up when uke rolls out of it:

Although I'm more interested in the body skills developed by aikido because the techniques were poorly thought up, I think he's onto something with his work.

 

[Hanzou]

we seemed to be running through the well rehearsed argument that as, in this case aikido ( though it could be almost any tma) doesnt work in mma or bjj or judo that its useless for street defence.

iis that not the gist, it usually is,

I'm more than accepting of the notion that judo is extremly effective at dumping over weight drunks on the floor

i

Again, what's the difference though? It comes down to resistance vs compliance. In MMA if you're getting punched in the face repeatedly, you simply get better at taking a punch than someone who studies a Karate style that only does forms and kicks air. If you can go five rounds in the ring, you have far more cardio and endurance than someone who is punching and kicking air for an hour a couple of times a week. Put those skills together, and who would you say would do better in a self defense situation where they have to fight?

It's common sense.

 

[Martial D]

Bro, Ive gone over specific rules, Ive said its not a good fit for MMA. I dont know how ELSE to answer that. I dont think vanilla Aikido will work in MMA, who the hell would pay to see one guy get tossed around for a few minutes? Once you mix Aikido with anything else it isnt going to look like the videos of interpretive dance anymore, so then its going to be an argument of "it wasnt the aikido is was the other stuff" although to be fair I can tell by watching those uke nage videos who is doing the technique in a way that will actually work. Some guy posted a video of some old Japanese dude that was pretty solid technique.

I think we could see Aikido do well with other martial arts, maybe someone with Aikido, Judo and more traditional Ju-Jitsu or Karate? If we go on the current syllabus only like 60 techniques get taught nowadays, if that, if we are going to evaluate only those techniques I dont sew how you could get it to work without some other BJJ/Judo or whatever experience. A traditional Aikido guy with nothing else has no defenses against modern wrestling/BJJ takedowns and anything on the ground, so just like any fighter nowadays has to practice striking AND ground fighting to be competitive, I dont see how you could make Aikido work without the same thing. That doesnt mean it doesnt work as a combative art, maybe it makes the argument about it needing to get with the times, for that we did specific things like integrating judo, BJJ into the system. I still need to look at lists of Aikido and Judo techniques to see where every technique falls, because I learned it along side the Judo. I think we need more people like the budo brothers who advocate training in lots of different styles before we see a see change in MMA and "competitive" martial arts. Filipino martial arts, in my opinion, are the next "big thing", we dont see them in MMA at all, ever, but we know Kali, Escrima, Panatuken, etc works, it was used very effectively against the Spanish, the US, and the Japanese learned to fear little men running around with bamboo sticks and they were a very modern army. What I think we see in modern MMA is a very bottlenecked system of fighting that works very well under the UFC rules and that only really includes BJJ, Boxing, wrestling, and some (very little) karate and muay thai. I dont see this as proof that those are the only things that work, just that is what is being trained and used in current sporting events. Is that transparent enough?

So you are saying it doesn't work in competition because it doesn't teach you to deal with striking or grappling.

Yet for (reasons unknown) these shortcomings don't apply to outside a cage. Ok.

And the only rules you went over were the two afformentioned ones(wrist locks being illegal and greased fighters being legal) you were mistaken about. You could say it's the gloves but they actually make it easier to maintain a grip on the wrist. I'm quite sure aikido does not rely on rabbit punching, groin strikes, eye pokes or 12 to 6 elbows, and we are all out of rules.

Again, I'm not trying to bag on you, just trying to get some clarity on the claims you have been making..but it's still not adding up to anything consistent.

I don't see this discussion progressing any further.

 

[Hanzou]

Just found this excellent video series on Morihiro Saito's traditional approach to aikido.

Here, he gives some explanations about the "fluid" number of aikido techniques, and how he could come up with almost infinite variations on one technique: Takemusu-aiki-curriculum-(1994-09).mp4

Here, he discusses application. Oyo-waza are techniques from the kata applied to a particular situation (e.g. sparring), while henka-waza is the term for when you try a technique, it doesn't work and then you switch to another one: Oyowaza-and-henkawaza-(1992-09).mp4

I've often wondered why I had never been taught oyo-waza. No teacher says "ok now we're doing applications" and there's almost no trace of them in reference books. From Saito's explanation above, I get that teaching oyo-waza would be moot: I can't teach you adaptability by teaching the 7th oyo-waza version of X technique which is only appropriate when uke has his weight on his nearest foot. Instead I teach the basic form as a drill, and you're expected to make it work.

This clarifies a bit the training model of aikido. That said, I still think that the sparring/randori format could be improved (a lot) to facilitate learning oyo-waza and henka-waza. It's a big part of what makes competitive styles like BJJ, judo and wrestling effective, along with more extensive technical and tactical study.

Bruce Bookman has some great ideas on oyo-waza and henka-waza. See how he has systematized follow ups to classical aikido technique:

First, here's the classical shiho nage:

Now, here's Bookman's shiho nage to sankyo:

Here's a sankyo follow up when uke rolls out of it:

Although I'm more interested in the body skills developed by aikido because the techniques were poorly thought up, I think he's onto something with his work.

Hmmm, I like the entries on those, but I think there's way too many steps and need to control a single arm in some of those sequences.

I'm also not a fan of the pin in the third video. It reminds me of Knee on Belly, but it doesn't seem nearly as secure. Bjj has multiple submission strings from knee on belly, but I'm not sure what an Aikidoka could do from that position.

 

[Martial D]

If the answer was “nothing,” would it matter? Because then you would also need to ask: what can judo or wrestling provide that aikido can’t? The answer would again be “nothing.”

Aside from how to grapple.

 

[jobo]

Again, what's the difference though? It comes down to resistance vs compliance. In MMA if you're getting punched in the face repeatedly, you simply get better at taking a punch than someone who studies a Karate style that only does forms and kicks air. If you can go five rounds in the ring, you have far more cardio and endurance than someone who is punching and kicking air for an hour a couple of times a week. Put those skills together, and who would you say would do better in a self defense situation where they have to fight?

It's common sense.

well your build a fictitious situation to argue with

conditioning is very important, but a) not all karate spend all or even any of it's time kicking air , we dont,b) conditioning away from fighting is what good fighters do and c) you only have to be better hopefully considerably better than the guy you are fighting and your going to be somewhat unlucky to find the fat drunk to be a closet athelete even more unlucky to find he is a judoka

 

[Hanzou]

well your build a fictitious situation to argue with

What aspect of my quote is fictitious?

conditioning is very important, but a) not all karate spend all or even any of it's time kicking air , we dont,b) conditioning away from fighting is what good fighters do and c) you only have to be better hopefully considerably better than the guy you are fighting and your going to be somewhat unlucky to find the fat drunk to be a closet athelete even more unlucky to find he is a judoka

I never said ALL karate styles, but we both know that there are karate styles out there who do that, and even don't practice sparring at all.

 

[jobo]

What aspect of my quote is fictitious?



I never said ALL karate styles, but we both know that there are karate styles out there who do that, and even don't practice sparring at all.

if you dont mean all karate say so, ive never seen one where they only kick and punch air, never, do they exist? not sure, possibly

but you focused on on the smallest percentage and make statements that it's common place, which you clearly cant know, or you do know it's wrong and said it anyway

however kicking air is aerobicaly challeng9ng about the same as running, so it's not even a rebuttal to the point on conditioning, if there one thing those kata,display teams have its cardio

 

[O'Malley]

Hmmm, I like the entries on those, but I think there's way too many steps and need to control a single arm in some of those sequences.

I'm also not a fan of the pin in the third video. It reminds me of Knee on Belly, but it doesn't seem nearly as secure. Bjj has multiple submission strings from knee on belly, but I'm not sure what an Aikidoka could do from that position.

I'm no expert but I think that it's actually BJJ's KoB. Bookman is a BJJ black belt and instructor and incorporates both the methodology and techniques into his aikido. I remember he teaches ground survival skills for aikidoka (shrimping, etc.), the double-leg takedown and an ikkyo-to-KoB drill, among others.

Edit: as to an aikido follow up to the KoB, I'm at a loss as well but I've never trained with the guy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sooo ...in the newest video he backtracks and says, "Yeah. it looks like there is some WC out there that is being trained with resistance and is useful for fighting...". Gotta respect a guy who is willing to look at evidence and change his mind.

That's true. Can't hate guy for owning up to his errors. He could have made his Journey easier had he just asked before assuming. lol. Functional martial artists never have difficulty in finding each other a youtube search of Wing Chun sparring would have answered any doubts.

I said that if the entry is flawed you'll never get to the technique, thus the entire thing falls apart. I view entry and technique to being two parts of a whole.

Agreed

Yeah, but that pretty much applies to everything doesn't it? If someone sees a punch or a kick coming, they'll defend it as well. I get chokes and locks off in Bjj because my partner didn't see it coming.

Yep Universal Rule for Martial arts. There's no exception to it, so when people are trying to apply aikido techniques they should go hunting for a wrist lock. If it thing, wrist locks and any locks should be more like an ambushed,

 

[Hanzou]

if you dont mean all karate say so, ive never seen one where they only kick and punch air, never, do they exist? not sure, possibly

but you focused on on the smallest percentage and make statements that it's common place, which you clearly cant know, or you do know it's wrong and said it anyway

however kicking air is aerobicaly challeng9ng about the same as running, so it's not even a rebuttal to the point on conditioning, if there one thing those kata,display teams have its cardio

I figured saying "a karate system" would indicate that I was talking about some, but okay.

And frankly if all you're doing is kicking air, you don't know how to kick a target.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm no expert but I think that it's actually BJJ's KoB. Bookman is a BJJ black belt and instructor and incorporates both the methodology and techniques into his aikido. I remember he teaches ground survival skills for aikidoka (shrimping, etc.), the double-leg takedown and an ikkyo-to-KoB drill, among others.

Edit: as to an aikido follow up to the KoB, I'm at a loss as well but I've never trained with the guy.

Yeah, I can tell he has some Bjj training from those entries. Also my issue with the pin was the transition he was doing. I don't know if he was doing an Aikido move with how he was moving his legs, but the Bjj knee on belly switch is WAY more efficient than what he was doing.

And yeah, my other issue is what does an Aikidoka do from there? It isn't impossible to escape a knee on belly.

 

[jobo]

I figured saying "a karate system" would indicate that I was talking about some, but okay.

And frankly if all you're doing is kicking air, you don't know how to kick a target.

we have far from established that such even exists, they only have to get a focus pad out every now and then to prove you wrong and I've never ever been to a karate club that didnt own a few focus pad

but as said, I'm doing cyclibg at the moment for one of many reasons that it will help my ma ability, the only group I run into regularly that really scare me are cyclists as they have much better cardio than me

 

[O'Malley]

Found something that the grapplers here may like. Here's Greg Bouchelaghem, a BJJ and full-contact karate blackbelt and ex-pro MMA fighter (Pride, Cage Warriors). Here's him trying not to get mangled by Thomas Loubersanes (from 9:22 onwards):

Here's Greg's friendly exchange with aikido instructor Leo Tamaki (grappling sparring starts at 1:09:08):

I hope you'll find it interesting.

 

[Hanzou]

Found something that the grapplers here may like. Here's Greg Bouchelaghem, a BJJ and full-contact karate blackbelt and ex-pro MMA fighter (Pride, Cage Warriors). Here's him trying not to get mangled by Thomas Loubersanes (from 9:22 onwards):

Here's Greg's friendly exchange with aikido instructor Leo Tamaki (grappling sparring starts at 1:09:08):

I hope you'll find it interesting.

Thoroughly enjoyed the first video. Very explosive, and I liked the technique shown.

Don't know what to make of the second vid. Greg was trying to be nice I suppose, but yeah....

BTW, here's some submissions from knee on belly;

Is there some reason they couldn't be translated into Aikido?

 

[Flying Crane]

Sooo ...in the newest video he backtracks and says, "Yeah. it looks like there is some WC out there that is being trained with resistance and is useful for fighting...". Gotta respect a guy who is willing to look at evidence and change his mind.

I dunno. I still don’t know who the fellow is and don’t really care. But I don’t think he has earned back any respect, at least not in my book. He might simply try not being a douche in the first place. That whole thing of, it takes a thousand acts to build a reputation, and only one to destroy it.

sounds to me like he is simply a douche, no matter how he tries to conceal it.