Aikido.. The reality?

[drop bear]

it's a requirement to be any sort of fighter, if your not competitive you loose quickly

and you fight drunks, I'm sure your competitive at that, I can usually fight drunks as well, the drunker the better

Yeah but I have had Bundy in a can

 

[jobo]

Yeah but I have had Bundy in a can

that just makes you a drunk as well, its nothing to be proud of,

 

[drop bear]

that just makes you a drunk as well, its nothing to be proud of,

Not subjectively.

In my opinion it makes me better than you.

And unfortunately we can only judge things in that manner.

 

[jobo]

Not subjectively.

In my opinion it makes me better than you.

And unfortunately we can only judge things in that manner.

good you've accepted the point, that we,all bring our own criteria to what being a proficient ma is

I hope this is an end to your mma is best, coz its objectively better diatribe, il miss you, as it's your only topic

 

[Hanzou]

You are proving my point. If the technique was actually trash then there is no way you can correctly do the technique so that it functions. It would lack the concept and foundation required to be functional. The BJJ was able to show how to do the technique properly because it was a valid technique. It was just the other guy was doing it wrong so everything that follows would be wrong too.

Keep in mind I said "what they learned", not technique in of itself. For example, a lot of Aikido wrist locks are technically sound, it's their entries into those techniques that are the problem.

No BJJ coach, or instructor is going to lower their image by trying to take serious something that isn't valid, or something that they didn't think could be valid.

But those examples are far and few in between. Outside of no-touch nonsense, a punch is a punch and a lock is a lock, the difference in effectiveness is getting those techniques to land on a consistent basis without getting KO'd in the process. Take for example Masaaki Hatsumi's infamous ground fighting video;

There are sound techniques in that video, it's just layered with tons of BS.

 

[Hanzou]

The technique is more important than the entry. If you get the technique wrong then nothing works. If you really dig deep into your system then you should be able to see that there are many entries. I literally just showed my son this today. I took one technique from Jow Ga and showed multiple entries for that one technique.

I never said the entries were more important than the technique, I said that if the entry is flawed you'll never get to the technique, thus the entire thing falls apart. I view entry and technique to being two parts of a whole.

People who do wrist locks will tell you the same thing. They work better when your opponent doesn't know it's coming. There are many ways to trick someone.

Yeah, but that pretty much applies to everything doesn't it? If someone sees a punch or a kick coming, they'll defend it as well. I get chokes and locks off in Bjj because my partner didn't see it coming. I disagree that this is a special case just for wrist locks. I think the real fundamental difference here is that in grappling it's position then submission, whereas in Aikido it appears that it's submission then position, where you're using the submission to force your opponent into a position, and that causes an issue with effectiveness.

I think Aikido has some valid techniques for fighting applications, I just think most to train it don't do so for function. Like someone stated here sort of Aikido for Health and Tai Chi for health. where techniques are blurred shadows of function. In terms of sparring against other systems, I've only seen a very few do so.

I stated that, and yes I view Aikido is more like Yoga than Boxing.

 

[Hanzou]

Strawman.

Who has demanded anyone be a competitive fighter?

I set the bar as low as a flow roll. And that couldn't be met.

I guess he's talking about me.

I simply told him that instead of claiming that Rokas from MA Journey is misrepresenting his art and criticizing his technique, he should do what Rokas did and spar with a MMA fighter and film the results.

Interesting that he views that as someone telling him to participate in a "MMA death match".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wrist locks are their claim to fame, and the basis of the system.

That's not my understanding of their system. I'd say movement is the basis of the system, and they probably put most of their emphasis on kokyu nage throws in demonstration.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I never said that wrist locks were the ONLY techniques in the system. I said that they're the claim to fame and the basis of the system, since the basics revolve around wrist control.

I've never seen much stress on wrist control when I was visiting an Aikido school. Body control (often via the arm, but not exclusively so) was much more emphasized. I'm really not sure I ever trained a wrist lock at an Aikido dojo, now that I think about it. I probably did, but it certainly wasn't the majority of the training time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will ask you again; why is aikido not used in a competitive format? You seem to truely believe in its eficy. Surely this must have crossed your mind?

Do you believe you know something the entire MMA community doesn't?

What is it about MMA that has been nullifying the usefulness of aikido for all of these years?

Surely you don't believe there is some conspiracy within jui jitsu to keep all the aikidokas from showing their skills?

I think if you took Aikido to Judo competition (probably the easiest transition) - assuming you trained it for that format, rather than the typical no-resistance approach seen too often in Aikido schools - it would still look a lot like Judo. What would be most different would be the defense, not the offence. As @Shatteredzen suggested, there's a difference in the way an attack is received. I suspect it would be initially confusing to Judoka, because it is new. How much of an advantage it would be probably depends on how adaptable the individual competitors involved are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The technique is more important than the entry.

I teach exactly the opposite of this, and I suspect my view is more accurate for Aikido, as well. The entry to a grappling technique is where the control starts. Fail the entry, and there is no technique available. A good entry is what makes the next step possible, and a single entry can lead to multiple options. If they counter late in the entry, that usually just means there's a different finish. Or it's time to punch them.

 

[jobo]

I think if you took Aikido to Judo competition (probably the easiest transition) - assuming you trained it for that format, rather than the typical no-resistance approach seen too often in Aikido schools - it would still look a lot like Judo. What would be most different would be the defense, not the offence. As @Shatteredzen suggested, there's a difference in the way an attack is received. I suspect it would be initially confusing to Judoka, because it is new. How much of an advantage it would be probably depends on how adaptable the individual competitors involved are.

that of course would have no bearing on its s4lf defence use, as your unlikely to be attacked either again by the same guy or by others who had watched, if you " confuse "them and they end up on the floor, that the only success required

it's much the same for all ma, having one trick that works most of the time is really all you will ever need, have three tricks and youve covered most eventualities

 

[Hanzou]

I've never seen much stress on wrist control when I was visiting an Aikido school. Body control (often via the arm, but not exclusively so) was much more emphasized. I'm really not sure I ever trained a wrist lock at an Aikido dojo, now that I think about it. I probably did, but it certainly wasn't the majority of the training time.

Wrist control doesn't form a good portion of the basic techniques Nikyo, Sankyo, and Yonkyo?

Aikido Joint Locks - Black Belt Wiki

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that of course would have no bearing on its s4lf defence use, as your unlikely to be attacked either again by the same guy or by others who had watched, if you " confuse "them and they end up on the floor, that the only success required

it's much the same for all ma, having one trick that works most of the time is really all you will ever need, have three tricks and youve covered most eventualities

I don't know that the confusion would (or wouldn't) rise to that level. A very adaptive Judo player might be stymied on their first attempt to throw, but that wouldn't mean they'd end up on the ground - just that the person defending didn't. And that very adaptive person might overcome that defense the second attempt. I do think it would mess with some folks enough to mess up their entire match, but not everyone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wrist control doesn't form a good portion of the basic techniques Nikyo, Sankyo, and Yonkyo?

Aikido Joint Locks - Black Belt Wiki

The way I've experienced those, the arm control and body movement is what really matters. The wrist is the finish. And my experience training at Aikido dojos (limited, but varied), they didn't spend most of their time on those techniques - more spent on "projections" (throws/takedowns).

 

[jobo]

I don't know that the confusion would (or wouldn't) rise to that level. A very adaptive Judo player might be stymied on their first attempt to throw, but that wouldn't mean they'd end up on the ground - just that the person defending didn't. And that very adaptive person might overcome that defense the second attempt. I do think it would mess with some folks enough to mess up their entire match, but not everyone.

yea but it still has no bearing on self defence unless it a particularly adaptive judo man involved

it's the whole it wont work on the street if it wont work in compitiction nonsence, that these three continually argue, that I'm taking issue with

mma is not a close representation of street fight, as most street fight dont look at all like mma, they largly seem to consist of two bald blokes in good shirts and bad shoes pushing each other, before one gets the other in a head lock and they both fall over the kerb

at least round here,

 

[O'Malley]

Wrist control doesn't form a good portion of the basic techniques Nikyo, Sankyo, and Yonkyo?

Aikido Joint Locks - Black Belt Wiki

In addition to what gpseymour said above, these three are just variations on the first basic technique (ikkyo). The joint locks in that series make for really good stretching, teach you about body mechanics and can be used to lock someone, but they represent a very small portion of aikido kata. Most of the techniques are throws, with integrated striking opportunities.

 

[Hanzou]

The way I've experienced those, the arm control and body movement is what really matters. The wrist is the finish. And my experience training at Aikido dojos (limited, but varied), they didn't spend most of their time on those techniques - more spent on "projections" (throws/takedowns).

Interesting. Aren’t those considered basic techniques? Why wouldn’t Aikidoka spend a lot of time on the basics?

 

[Hanzou]

yea but it still has no bearing on self defence unless it a particularly adaptive judo man involved

it's the whole it wont work on the street if it wont work in compitiction nonsence, that these three continually argue, that I'm taking issue with

mma is not a close representation of street fight, as most street fight dont look at all like mma, they largly seem to consist of two bald blokes in good shirts and bad shoes pushing each other, before one gets the other in a head lock and they both fall over the kerb

at least round here,

A skilled Judoka wouldn’t have to adapt much to accomplish a throw. The thing is that if you can throw another skilled Judoka, you have a high chance of being able to throw some drunken clown at a bar. Why? Because you’ve spent an inordinate amount of time training against highly resisting opponents who know how to counter what you’re doing. Someone who doesn’t know how to stop or counter your throw would be like you as a black belt sparring against a white belt on their first day of class.

And that’s the core difference; training against resistance versus compliant training.

 

[jobo]

A skilled Judoka wouldn’t have to adapt much to accomplish a throw. The thing is that if you can throw another skilled Judoka, you have a high chance of being able to throw some drunken clown at a bar. Why? Because you’ve spent an inordinate amount of time training against highly resisting opponents who know how to counter what you’re doing. Someone who doesn’t know how to stop or counter your throw would be like you as a black belt sparring against a white belt on their first day of class.

well yes that is possibly so, but I would have a very near to 1 probability of defeating them anyway, so the differance between turning up once a week to do karate and years of dedicated judoka training would be minnute

it would indeed be like me sparring with a complete beginner ,only one that is probebly drunk as well