Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

The Aikido locks that you are referring to are universal across systems, so it wouldn't be difficult for the BJJ practitioner to know how it works.

The Aikido guy just plain flat out didn't know what he was doing. Out of all the things he did, when I saw that he couldn't properly do a wrist lock, it became clear that some of his other training would be equally if not more faulty.

For a system that uses locks, he doesn't have any excuse for not knowing. There can be question about his Aikido but for those wrist locks there's no way. At a minimum I think Aikido Practitioners should at least understant the majority of their locks. The one he was trying to do, was one of the easier ones.

The thing is where have you ever seen an Aikido practitioner do a successful wrist lock under duress? I never have.

While I do agree that his Aikido skill is questionable, he has found some success in Bjj tournaments and MMA, so the excuse simply can't be that he sucks at martial arts, the truth is that something went horribly wrong in his Aikido training.

 

[Martial D]

What is this? 1995? In the UFC yes some of those moves are illegal, but in other MMA organizations they aren't. One FC for example allows strikes to grounded opponents, and Bjj does just fine in those promotions as well. We should also not forget that what started all of this in the first place was the original UFCs, were everything you mentioned was fair game. Bjj still did just fine.

Lol yes. There was a funny article in BB magazine about beating the 'gracie tackle' from the mid 90s that talked about how easy it was to stop takedowns by elbowing to the back of the head. Didn't work then doesn't work now.

People tend to forget(or purposely overlook) that the first few years of MMA had no rules at all and BJJ guys fucked everyone up anyway

 

[dunc]

I've trained MMA for years against guys of all skill levels. If you are getting standing wrist locks you are either amazing at them AND much bigger and stronger than whoever you are getting them on, or they are being gifted to you.

It just doesn't happen.

Well it’s really hard in MMA because of the lack of a gi, gloves and wrapped wrists
And reiterating that whilst there are some standing wrist locks that work pretty well when the opportunity presents itself (eg the standard BJJ one below) the majority are parts of a bigger take down rather than a takedown in their own rights

As you say they are also the sort of thing that you can quickly try if your opponent lets his/her guard down, is unaware or has weak wrists and you don’t really lose anything from trying them, actually they work really well as grip strippers

 

[Shatteredzen]

Aikido doesn't have to be better than something else to be effective. And Aikido being able to combine with BJJ doesn't have to improve the BJJ - it might just use some principles differently. And in some cases it may look indistinguishable. If someone learns some principles in Aikido and applies them in a BJJ class, they are using Aikido, even if those same movements could also have been learned in that BJJ class (but weren't in this case). There is necessarily an overlap of principles among all grappling.

I've seen (and felt) some nice groundwork from JJJ (mostly from a temporary student visiting from Germany) that wouldn't be out of place in BJJ, though the movement was a bit...wider I think is the word I'm looking for. And I don't think it would be out of place in some Aikido schools (I'm thinking more the movement style of Yoshinkan, as I understand it). Since it wouldn't look out-of-place in either, blending the two together might just produce something that looks like a variation of each.

But I wouldn't expect BJJ folks to be spending a lot of time exploring Aikido. I could see some advantages in it, but only if you could somehow add it on to training without the opportunity cost of not working on other stuff. Otherwise, I don't think it'd be an advantage to try to add it on. The process requireed to blend in the Aikido work seems like it woudn't fit with the BJJ approach to training - too much time required to get a return.

It's not that much more time, I learned Aikido in sequence alongside Judo and BJJ. Granted, I learned full time also, I had the advantage of my Sensei being a co-worker in my unit in the military and my superiors were very pro martial arts, I spent 4 to 8 hours a day learning stuff for years. Aikido principles and concepts can be taught through a fe different exercises and while learning the techniques, I tend to teach one or two techniques per session, one technique per hour so there is plenty of time for practical application and for everyone to have the technique applied/apply the technique on everyone else. You could pick up enough Aikido to improve your BJJ or whatever in a few weeks, even if you only did a few hours a week. Mastery is a long road but the movement and principles of Aikido are in my opinion the core of the art. I can make a Muay Thai vertical knee or an elbow strike into an "Aikido" move by directing/redirecting my force and momentum with the force and momentum of the opponent. Thats why I believe the theory is the real treasure.

Also, while it lacks pressure testing, I have rarely seen a "varied" use of force taught anywhere else, most fighting is full force or nothing, but Aikido teaches superior control and a tempered response. My original teacher would take people out to a field or parking lot and encourage them to hit him and then he would spend however long just slapping their hands away, tripping them, dancing out of their reach and otherwise just playing around until they got tired and gave up as a way of teaching what Aikido "is" to new students or other martial artists. Nothing is more dejecting than trying your darndest to punch and kick someone and having them laugh at you, wipe brow sweat on your shirt and otherwise tease you while they simply bat away your best strikes. That is the ultimate goal though, a well disciplined fighter who can apply just enough force or no force at such a high level of competence that they win the altercation and maintain control of the situation in a way that protects both combatants, the same way you keep a kid brother or young son from hitting you while they rough house but you also keep them from getting hurt also.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Lol yes. There was a funny article in BB magazine about beating the 'gracie tackle' from the mid 90s that talked about how easy it was to stop takedowns by elbowing to the back of the head. Didn't work then doesn't work now.

People tend to forget(or purposely overlook) that the first few years of MMA had no rules at all and BJJ guys fucked everyone up anyway

You mean the mid 90's UFC's that were put on as commercials for Gracie BJJ? There's a good interview with Bill Wallace on that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, we'd spend time with it if we find something useful, and especially if we can find something that changes the game. Unfortunately at the present time, there's just nothing there from what I'm seeing on the scene.

This is what I was getting at, really. I don't think it'd be a game-changer, and any potential advantage wouldn't likely be worth the time it would take away from BJJ fundamentals.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not that much more time, I learned Aikido in sequence alongside Judo and BJJ. Granted, I learned full time also, I had the advantage of my Sensei being a co-worker in my unit in the military and my superiors were very pro martial arts, I spent 4 to 8 hours a day learning stuff for years. Aikido principles and concepts can be taught through a fe different exercises and while learning the techniques, I tend to teach one or two techniques per session, one technique per hour so there is plenty of time for practical application and for everyone to have the technique applied/apply the technique on everyone else. You could pick up enough Aikido to improve your BJJ or whatever in a few weeks, even if you only did a few hours a week. Mastery is a long road but the movement and principles of Aikido are in my opinion the core of the art. I can make a Muay Thai vertical knee or an elbow strike into an "Aikido" move by directing/redirecting my force and momentum with the force and momentum of the opponent. Thats why I believe the theory is the real treasure.

Also, while it lacks pressure testing, I have rarely seen a "varied" use of force taught anywhere else, most fighting is full force or nothing, but Aikido teaches superior control and a tempered response. My original teacher would take people out to a field or parking lot and encourage them to hit him and then he would spend however long just slapping their hands away, tripping them, dancing out of their reach and otherwise just playing around until they got tired and gave up as a way of teaching what Aikido "is" to new students or other martial artists. Nothing is more dejecting than trying your darndest to punch and kick someone and having them laugh at you, wipe brow sweat on your shirt and otherwise tease you while they simply bat away your best strikes. That is the ultimate goal though, a well disciplined fighter who can apply just enough force or no force at such a high level of competence that they win the altercation and maintain control of the situation in a way that protects both combatants, the same way you keep a kid brother or young son from hitting you while they rough house but you also keep them from getting hurt also.

I was talking more about the time it would take for someone training BJJ to add Aikido - and that this time would essentially be time away from BJJ trainign. From a competition perspective (the context mentioned in a prior post) this wouldn't be all that productive. I think it'd be productive from a holistic perspective (different approaches to many of the same concepts and principles), but doesn't really fit with the general BJJ approach I've seen, which favors what they see as the most efficient approaches (both to fighting and to training).

 

[Shatteredzen]

This is what I was getting at, really. I don't think it'd be a game-changer, and any potential advantage wouldn't likely be worth the time it would take away from BJJ fundamentals.

If you get a chance to train under a good instructor I think its worth the investment in time, just as in any martial art. I think it can be a good foundation or capstone to someone's training it just depends on your goals. If your going to compete as an MMA fighter, Aikido is likely not going to be a good use of your time but it blends very well with most martial arts in my experience. BJJ lacks a way to deal with a standing opponent or to counter a charging attacker or an armed one, Aikido can help with that, it also blends wonderfully with Judo which is how it was originally taught.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I was talking more about the time it would take for someone training BJJ to add Aikido - and that this time would essentially be time away from BJJ trainign. From a competition perspective (the context mentioned in a prior post) this wouldn't be all that productive. I think it'd be productive from a holistic perspective (different approaches to many of the same concepts and principles), but doesn't really fit with the general BJJ approach I've seen, which favors what they see as the most efficient approaches (both to fighting and to training).

I agree, the only thing you would get from Aikido to bring to a BJJ competition would be philosophy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Aikido can help with that, it also blends wonderfully with Judo which is how it was originally taught.

In your opinion, what can Aikido offer that Judo or wrestling can't?

 

[Hanzou]

You mean the mid 90's UFC's that were put on as commercials for Gracie BJJ? There's a good interview with Bill Wallace on that

Two karatekas with an inferiority complex trying to push a conspiracy theory. Nice. I also think it's hilarious how they say no wrestlers were in the first UFCs when Ken Shamrock was a professional wrestler in Japan, and multiple wrestlers were in the next 3 UFCs where the Gracies participated.

Also ever notice how no actual fighters from those early UFCs ever said the fights were BS?

 

[Shatteredzen]

The thing is where have you ever seen an Aikido practitioner do a successful wrist lock under duress? I never have.

While I do agree that his Aikido skill is questionable, he has found some success in Bjj tournaments and MMA, so the excuse simply can't be that he sucks at martial arts, the truth is that something went horribly wrong in his Aikido training.

I've never seen a double leg takedown work in a real fight outside a ring, yet, its all you BJJ kids can talk about and I won't take the position that they don't work, I just don't advise using it. I've used more wristlocks than I can count on both hands. Your mileage may vary. The MA journey guys Aikido and on camera attempts at application are horrible, that's why the BJJ guy was able to correct him so quickly. Unfortunately, there are more bad Aikido schools than good ones in my experience, it has a higher rate of bullshido than perhaps any other martial art in the US other than generic Karate schools and the strip mall MMA "academies" that employ some random washed out fighter who got a half dozen matches at bars and did wrestling in high school.

 

[drop bear]

you can ask those questions, but one cant be,answered by him one will be subjective and two he can say yes to but that's drops a long way short of giving you the information you think you requested, which would be your fault for asking the wrong questions

Lol.

The concept of people asking the wrong questions and being told the right ones. Is so appropriate for this discussion

 

[drop bear]

The thing is where have you ever seen an Aikido practitioner do a successful wrist lock under duress? I never have.

While I do agree that his Aikido skill is questionable, he has found some success in Bjj tournaments and MMA, so the excuse simply can't be that he sucks at martial arts, the truth is that something went horribly wrong in his Aikido training.

And the irony is that there are examples of successful wrist locks in BJJ. It isn't necessarily the wrist locks that are the issue.

 

[drop bear]

I've never seen a double leg takedown work in a real fight outside a ring, yet, its all you BJJ kids can talk about and I won't take the position that they don't work, I just don't advise using it. I've used more wristlocks than I can count on both hands. Your mileage may vary. The MA journey guys Aikido and on camera attempts at application are horrible, that's why the BJJ guy was able to correct him so quickly. Unfortunately, there are more bad Aikido schools than good ones in my experience, it has a higher rate of bullshido than perhaps any other martial art in the US other than generic Karate schools and the strip mall MMA "academies" that employ some random washed out fighter who got a half dozen matches at bars and did wrestling in high school.

Classic wataburger fight?

And it wasn't even a good double leg.

 

[Shatteredzen]

In your opinion, what can Aikido offer that Judo or wrestling can't?

They are complementary, not competing systems. I think Aikido is best when paired with Judo, to me, the quickest way to reform the whole system would just be teach it alongside Judo whole cloth. What it provides that Judo and Wrestling don't is a method of receiving and then redirecting and/or grounding the force presented to you by the opponent. I think the movement, footwork and flow of Aikido is something Judo and wrestling are both missing as well as methods for receiving an attack from a standing or rushing opponent or someone who is armed. Wrestling or Judo for example, won't teach you anything for dealing with a vertical knee from a rush or how to disarm someone who has picked up a knife or stick.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Classic wataburger fight?

And it wasn't even a good double leg.

Sorry, what? Either you had a stroke or I'm missing some kind of pop culture reference.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Two karatekas with an inferiority complex trying to push a conspiracy theory. Nice. I also think it's hilarious how they say no wrestlers were in the first UFCs when Ken Shamrock was a professional wrestler in Japan, and multiple wrestlers were in the next 3 UFCs where the Gracies participated.

Also ever notice how no actual fighters from those early UFCs ever said the fights were BS?

Ken Shamrock, the guy who got retired by a knee to the face when he lunged for a double knee right (I feel like we got a theme here)? Also, I'm not saying the UFC is total BS, just weighted heavily in favor of BJJ. Does that mean the Gracies aren't totally awesome? No. Does that mean BJJ doesn't work? No. Is BJJ touted as being more holistic and applicable than it is? Yes! The main difference between Aikido and BJJ is brand image, there's in all fairness, just as many if not more MMA/BJJ schools and fighters pedaling garbage as there are Aikido schools/practitioners doing the same, but the BJJ has that UFC smell because of many, many years of excellent marketing on the part of the Gracies.

 

[Hanzou]

I've never seen a double leg takedown work in a real fight outside a ring, yet, its all you BJJ kids can talk about and I won't take the position that they don't work, I just don't advise using it.

I wouldn't advise getting into street fights period. That said, do you honestly think that DLTs are the only takedowns that BJJ folks train in? Additionally, I'll just note that DLTs are probably one of the most effective takedowns around, hence why people have to learn how to sprawl to avoid a good one.

I've used more wristlocks than I can count on both hands. Your mileage may vary. The MA journey guys Aikido and on camera attempts at application are horrible, that's why the BJJ guy was able to correct him so quickly. Unfortunately, there are more bad Aikido schools than good ones in my experience, it has a higher rate of bullshido than perhaps any other martial art in the US other than generic Karate schools and the strip mall MMA "academies" that employ some random washed out fighter who got a half dozen matches at bars and did wrestling in high school.

And once again are we in 1995 again?

Listen friend, if you can do better than the MA Journey guy, stop wasting time on this forum and issue an open challenge to some BJJ schools, and record yourself destroying them with Aikido. You'll be a very wealthy person in a very short amount of time.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I wouldn't advise getting into street fights period. That said, do you honestly think that DLTs are the only takedowns that BJJ folks train in? Additionally, I'll just note that DLTs are probably one of the most effective takedowns around, hence why people have to learn how to sprawl to avoid a good one.



And once again are we in 1995 again?

Listen friend, if you can do better than the MA Journey guy, stop wasting time on this forum and issue an open challenge to some BJJ schools, and record yourself destroying them with Aikido. You'll be a very wealthy person in a very short amount of time.

Do you honestly think the only thing in Aikido is wristlocks? I'm pointing to the DLT since its being held up here as some shining sword for the purposes of argument. The MA journey guy is a youtuber who was attempting to use bad Aikido in a video, how did we go from critiquing a video to the Count Dante esque dojo wars suggestion? So because I say the MA journey guy is bad now I'm committed to issuing an open challenge to the practitioners of BJJ or my argument is invalid? Going by that logic, when is your next UFC fight Hanzou?