Aikido.. The reality?

[drop bear]

Nice jump to utter stupidity. And you claim to have the rational approach.

We were there a while ago.

If you go back to that video about evidence. It makes all these claims about religious or theist arguments.

And it is things like they will resort to attacking the person rather than show evidence when their beliefs are challenged.

It was called a bullying tactic.

It is quite interesting the parallels.

 

[jobo]

Why bother proving it. If it ultimately doesn't matter?

well it doesnt matter to most people, there lives wouldnt be any better of worse, very few peopke understand technology, they still use it, the tv still works if they dont understand quantum physics

we have reach a point in our development, where there is little differance between science and magic, you just have to belive what the scientist or the shaman said, as you dont have the capacity to understand it yourself

 

[Hanzou]

The fact that BJJ practitioners are trying to understand the techniques speaks volumes. I don't think they would have done so if they truly believed that there was no validity in the techniques.

I think people who do functional things have interests in functional things. In other words, if they believe that it's not functional, then they aren't going to spend time on trying to "decode it"

They are? I know the guy in MA Journey explores it because he spent 12 years in Aikido and simply doesn’t want to believe that what he learned is BS. I’ve been looking into Roy Dean’s system, but again I see nothing in there but tack-ons and extra Japanese fluff that doesn’t alter the effective Bjj core.

In short, I haven’t seen a widespread exploration of Aikido within Bjj. The only way something like that would happen is if an Aikidoka were effectively tapping out Bjjers like Sakaruba was doing to the Gracies with Catch 20 years ago. We have yet to see that happen, and frankly I don’t see it ever happening.

 

[drop bear]

well it doesnt matter to most people, there lives wouldnt be any better of worse, very few peopke understand technology, they still use it, the tv still works if they dont understand quantum physics

we have reach a point in our development, where there is little differance between science and magic, you just have to belive what the scientist or the shaman said, as you dont have the capacity to understand it yourself

Ok. So this is probably the best analogy we have so far.

So I go in to buy a TV. And I ask the sales man if it works. And he explains why it does via an explanation of quantum physics which I don't understand. And probably he doesn't understand because neither of us really have the grounding.


Or I can ask other questions. Can I turn it on? Is the brand reputable? Are there reviews? Is there a warranty?

 

[jobo]

Ok. So this is probably the best analogy we have so far.

So I go in to buy a TV. And I ask the sales man if it works. And he explains why it does via an explanation of quantum physics which I don't understand. And probably he doesn't understand because neither of us really have the grounding.


Or I can ask other questions. Can I turn it on? Is the brand reputable? Are there reviews? Is there a warranty?

you can ask those questions, but one cant be,answered by him one will be subjective and two he can say yes to but that's drops a long way short of giving you the information you think you requested, which would be your fault for asking the wrong questions

 

[Hanzou]

Very well put. I think all of the Aikidoka I've seen would be better at their Aikido if they had 6 months of Judo - preferably before the Aikido. It is my opinion that what is seen as "techniques" in the aiki arts I've seen are actually a subset - just what was selected to give students a chance to practice the principles. But practitioners get stuck on those specific techniques (and many of them, on the specific situational applications they are taught), because of the way the classical drills are run (and the lack of training tools that have a different dynamic, like sparring/rolling/judo randori).

I like the classical training drills. I don't like limiting training to those, because it seems to foster bad habits and poor understanding.

Wasnt Aikido originally a capstone course for Judo black belts? I think that’s part of the issue here. In that MA Journey video, the Bjj black belt was able to make the Aikido locks work better than the Aikido black belt who had studied Aikido for 15 years.

I don’t know how you fix that problem, because it seems that the MA journey guy is having a very hard time making his Aikido work in a grappling context.

 

[Martial D]

I hit them all the time in grappling: standing, kneeling and on the ground
What I will say is that there are not many ways to hit wrist locks in isolation from standing. Generally they need to be combined with something else, whereas on the ground you can isolate the forearm and attack them more directly

I've trained MMA for years against guys of all skill levels. If you are getting standing wrist locks you are either amazing at them AND much bigger and stronger than whoever you are getting them on, or they are being gifted to you.

It just doesn't happen.

 

[Martial D]

I've trained MMA for years against guys of all skill levels. If you are getting standing wrist locks you are either amazing at them AND much bigger and stronger than whoever you are getting them on, or they are being gifted to you.

It just doesn't happen.

In fact, if you are hitting ANY sort of arm locks from the feet(short of a flying armbar) I dare say the other guy sucks.. a lot.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They are? I know the guy in MA Journey explores it because he spent 12 years in Aikido and simply doesn’t want to believe that what he learned is BS. I’ve been looking into Roy Dean’s system, but again I see nothing in there but tack-ons and extra Japanese fluff that doesn’t alter the effective Bjj core.

In short, I haven’t seen a widespread exploration of Aikido within Bjj. The only way something like that would happen is if an Aikidoka were effectively tapping out Bjjers like Sakaruba was doing to the Gracies with Catch 20 years ago. We have yet to see that happen, and frankly I don’t see it ever happening.

Aikido doesn't have to be better than something else to be effective. And Aikido being able to combine with BJJ doesn't have to improve the BJJ - it might just use some principles differently. And in some cases it may look indistinguishable. If someone learns some principles in Aikido and applies them in a BJJ class, they are using Aikido, even if those same movements could also have been learned in that BJJ class (but weren't in this case). There is necessarily an overlap of principles among all grappling.

I've seen (and felt) some nice groundwork from JJJ (mostly from a temporary student visiting from Germany) that wouldn't be out of place in BJJ, though the movement was a bit...wider I think is the word I'm looking for. And I don't think it would be out of place in some Aikido schools (I'm thinking more the movement style of Yoshinkan, as I understand it). Since it wouldn't look out-of-place in either, blending the two together might just produce something that looks like a variation of each.

But I wouldn't expect BJJ folks to be spending a lot of time exploring Aikido. I could see some advantages in it, but only if you could somehow add it on to training without the opportunity cost of not working on other stuff. Otherwise, I don't think it'd be an advantage to try to add it on. The process requireed to blend in the Aikido work seems like it woudn't fit with the BJJ approach to training - too much time required to get a return.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wasnt Aikido originally a capstone course for Judo black belts? I think that’s part of the issue here. In that MA Journey video, the Bjj black belt was able to make the Aikido locks work better than the Aikido black belt who had studied Aikido for 15 years.

I don’t know how you fix that problem, because it seems that the MA journey guy is having a very hard time making his Aikido work in a grappling context.

That was my view (from discussions with folks far more knowledgeable than me), though there are folks who have more knowledge of the background of the art who don't share that view. I would readily argue that most of the Aikido I've seen would be better grounded if the practitioners got a year of Judo first. That might be my lack of understanding, but I haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.

As for the MA Journey guy, everthing I've seen of him trying to use his Aikido (from the early videos on) looked like he was forcing a reach for specific techniques, rather than controlling the situation until there were actual openings. This is where a grounding in something is key. That grounding could be developed within Aikido (they have the techniques to work with for Judo-style randori), but I haven't personally seen a school that took that approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've trained MMA for years against guys of all skill levels. If you are getting standing wrist locks you are either amazing at them AND much bigger and stronger than whoever you are getting them on, or they are being gifted to you.

It just doesn't happen.

I don't think they're likely to happen against someone trained for MMA-style competition. Perhaps rarely against a striker who isn't trained for dealing with grappling. Depending what your training opponent's goal is, they can become available in grappling (a tad more likely when they are grabbing sleeves on a gi), but it's always been a rare thing for me.

But with relatively untrained folks (people who are new to training), they're significantly less rare. They make weird mistakes.

I've always looked at the standing locks a bit differently. The lock isn't really the point. Everything that happens on the way to the lock is more reliable, so you're actually practicing structure breaking, frame control, conjunctive locking (not the same as locking a joint), and stuff like that - all of which can come into play in, for instance, Judo-style grip fighting and grappling. And a lot of that is quite useful from the opposite side - in controlling your own posture and structure to defend in grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

They are? I know the guy in MA Journey explores it because he spent 12 years in Aikido and simply doesn’t want to believe that what he learned is BS.

I was referring to the video with the Martial Arts Journey. Had BJJ guys thought the technique was a waste, they would told him him so. They wouldn't have mislead him or try to spare his fillings.

In short, I haven’t seen a widespread exploration of Aikido within Bjj. The only way something like that would happen is if an Aikidoka were effectively tapping out Bjjers like Sakaruba was doing to the Gracies with Catch 20 years ago. We have yet to see that happen, and frankly I don’t see it ever happening.

You won't see Aikido but you may see some of the locks that are used in Aikido. The locks aren't Aikido specific as you would find then in other systems as well.

But yes BJJ practitioner are interested in wrist locks Take note at how fast they tap out from the wrist lock.

 

[JowGaWolf]

, the Bjj black belt was able to make the Aikido locks work better than the Aikido black belt who had studied Aikido for 15 years.

I don’t know how you fix that problem, because it seems that the MA journey guy is having a very hard time making his Aikido work in a grappling context.

The Aikido locks that you are referring to are universal across systems, so it wouldn't be difficult for the BJJ practitioner to know how it works.

The Aikido guy just plain flat out didn't know what he was doing. Out of all the things he did, when I saw that he couldn't properly do a wrist lock, it became clear that some of his other training would be equally if not more faulty.

For a system that uses locks, he doesn't have any excuse for not knowing. There can be question about his Aikido but for those wrist locks there's no way. At a minimum I think Aikido Practitioners should at least understant the majority of their locks. The one he was trying to do, was one of the easier ones.

 

[Hanzou]

Aikido doesn't have to be better than something else to be effective. And Aikido being able to combine with BJJ doesn't have to improve the BJJ - it might just use some principles differently. And in some cases it may look indistinguishable. If someone learns some principles in Aikido and applies them in a BJJ class, they are using Aikido, even if those same movements could also have been learned in that BJJ class (but weren't in this case). There is necessarily an overlap of principles among all grappling.

You misunderstand; What I'm saying is that in order for Bjj as a whole to explore Aikido would require Aikido to be viewed as offering a Bjj practitioner who studied it a significant advantage over a Bjjer who didn't practice it. That simply isn't the case. Roy Dean's group for example aren't exactly lighting the competitive scene on fire.

As for Aikido being effective, I know people have different views of what "effective" means. I personally don't view Aikido as a combat art along the lines of Judo, some forms of Karate, Bjj, etc. I view it more along the lines of Iaido or Tai Chi; Something designed to cultivate the mind and the spirit, not something to break someone's neck.

I've seen (and felt) some nice groundwork from JJJ (mostly from a temporary student visiting from Germany) that wouldn't be out of place in BJJ, though the movement was a bit...wider I think is the word I'm looking for. And I don't think it would be out of place in some Aikido schools (I'm thinking more the movement style of Yoshinkan, as I understand it). Since it wouldn't look out-of-place in either, blending the two together might just produce something that looks like a variation of each.

But I wouldn't expect BJJ folks to be spending a lot of time exploring Aikido. I could see some advantages in it, but only if you could somehow add it on to training without the opportunity cost of not working on other stuff. Otherwise, I don't think it'd be an advantage to try to add it on. The process requireed to blend in the Aikido work seems like it woudn't fit with the BJJ approach to training - too much time required to get a return.

Again, we'd spend time with it if we find something useful, and especially if we can find something that changes the game. Unfortunately at the present time, there's just nothing there from what I'm seeing on the scene.

 

[Hanzou]

I was referring to the video with the Martial Arts Journey. Had BJJ guys thought the technique was a waste, they would told him him so. They wouldn't have mislead him or try to spare his fillings.

Actually they would. Unlike my persona here, in person I would never tell someone that what they've learned is a joke (even if it was). Instead, I would have done exactly what this guy did; Take his technique and show him how to properly do it.

You won't see Aikido but you may see some of the locks that are used in Aikido. The locks aren't Aikido specific as you would find then in other systems as well.

The wrist locks are universal, but it's the entries where the differences lie. Yeah, if you get someone's wrist in that position you can certainly break or twist their wrist. The trick is getting them into that position. Unfortunately for Aikido, their entry system is grossly inefficient and outdated. Check out some of the entries coming out of modern wrestling, especially from Russia and Central Europe. It's changing the game, and I would LOVE to see Aikido adopt some of them. They never will, but if they did they could really revolutionize their system.

But yes BJJ practitioner are interested in wrist locks Take note at how fast they tap out from the wrist lock.

Your video doesn't work, but yes we are interested in wrist locks. However, again it all depends on the entry and the application.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ok. The bits where you are wrong.

I argue that police restraints training is generally pretty bad. Nothing to do with catching punches and more to do with catching punches with your face as a pretty common reaction to people getting their arms grabbed. Which happens a fair bit. Especially after two weeks of training.

If you look at MMA competition. That allows striking and guillotines you are suggesting that what is the most successful throw in the competition works because nobody is expecting it. This is wrong everyone is expecting a double leg.

A wrist lock works fine against a grab is a statement that doesn't actually mean anything. Because we have no idea of the context. I mean we do se MMA guys hitting double legs we can get an honest idea of it's chances. We don't see Aikido guys escaping grabs with wrist locks. Exept demo's of course.

Anecdotal stories about how a fight goes is a very common method of dogma. So you say in a fight this happens. But that doesn't really mean much. What if I say in a fight the opposite happens. Then there is no way of discerning truth from fiction. Fights are mostly something doing stuff. Is just an easy way to explain why you can't do the thing you say.

Anyway. Slams are not banned in MMA.

Multi disciplines. You will find that there are needs for multiple disciplines but the individual disciplines can actually do what they say. So if say for example they said they could escape a grab with a wrist lock. You would be actually able to see that.

I am not writing off the whole system. I am writing off justifying a martial art with stories and assertions but no real evidence.

Especially when those assertions are not really true.

Let's establish something first, I am not here to justify the martial art to you, I can explain the system to you based off of my training and experience but that's it, there's no need and its not possible to "prove" a system on a message board on the internet.

MMA is heavily favored towards making accommodations for BJJ that are unrealistic and allow for more completed techniques. when you shoot for the double leg, the part of your head left open is the spine and the back of the head behind the ears, striking this area is called rabbit punching and it is 100% banned in the UFC and most MMA competitions, so its convenient that the move that will most efficiently counter the takedown is also banned in the same arena where it is "most successful". Is there a reason? Yes, MMA is a sport, the rules in MMA favor ensuring longevity for the fighters. Shoot for a double leg in a real altercation and watch how fast you get your bell rung, that's not theory or anecdote, that's experiential wisdom, do what you want with that on your own time.

Small joint manipulation is 100% not allowed in MMA, with this and the gloves, sweat, bare skin, petroleum jelly and other oilyness during an MMA fight it makes wristlocks impractical for all intents and purposes. There's a huge difference between you grabbing my jacket at the start of a confrontation and me attempting to wristlock you and us squaring off with MMA gloves and greased up at the start of a UFC fight. There's also a threshold for what I will and won't try in a fight with someone who is also a professional fighter, before you get too excited, this list also includes the double leg as something I would write off against a trained fighter.

The piledriver and any slam that could injure the head or back of an opponent is 100% not legal in the UFC, it just so happens that this is one of the more effective ways of countering someone attempting to pull you down for some BJJ, or attempting to grapple a standing opponent. Is there a good reason for it being banned? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the RESULT, favors the BJJ practitioner.

Strikes to a downed or grounded opponents head are not allowed in the UFC, here's a disqualifying knee to the head:
https://twitter.com/btsportufc/stat...w.sportskeeda.com/mma/which-moves-illegal-ufc

IS there a reason for this? Yes, a good one, having to do with the longevity and safety of the fighters involved. Still, it's another example of a protection enjoyed by BJJ that falsely inflates the effectiveness of the system. BJJ is great at ground fighting, the problem is you don't want to be on the ground in a fight and when you "shoot" at an opponents waist, fight on your back, etc, your going to tend to catch a beating for exposing your self. The system isn't worthless, in fact there's an argument to be made that BJJ should be integrated into more systems so that you have the tools to escape a fight on the ground or to finish an altercation that goes there, albeit with some caveats. I could make the same claim for Aikido however in regards to how it is incomplete as a single style but able to wonderfully complement a more traditional striking system. You can't simply point at BJJ and say "this works" and then point to Aikido and say "this doesn't work" as blanket statements towards the whole system.

Your argument "we don't see guys escaping grabs with wrist locks" or that "other arts do the thing that they claim" is more false pretense. Aikido does what it claims to do as much as any other system. Those stupid wrist locks you say don't work are taught to the police and military because they do work, when correctly applied, despite what you or I may think about these classes overall, they are taught because they work, if they didn't we wouldn't have a hundred years of Aikido and Judo techniques being integrated into law enforcement and military training, it would have been opted out by now if it were so wildly ineffective. Add to that, many police departments mandate those techniques trained in their classes as the ONLY ones available to officers for liability purposes, if there was no merit to them, we would have seen an outcry of officers protesting their ineffectual training. Say what you want, but the average cop is going to see and participate in more violent altercations than most other citizens. More cops use these techniques than most martial artists ever get to use their martial arts in street fights.

There's nothing wrong with the tools in the system, they work, when properly applied. Conflating youtube videos as the final arbiter of what is real is stupid, by that standard, no martial arts moves work other than a handful of arm bars and rear naked chokes. I've used my Aikido as much or more than most of the other tools in my personal tool kit in a variety of altercations, your mileage may vary, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is, I'm not here to convert you to the faith of Aikido, I'm simply trying to explain the dissociation between what you are watching on TV and the system itself, if you are already of the mindset that Aikido is 100% garbage, I can't change that but it doesn't win you the argument either, its just your opinion.

Here's some more anecdotal information, I don't know what your experience level in actual violence is, as someone who has spent time in war, the ring and as a beat cop I can tell you that war is not a street fight and neither are the same as a duel in the ring between two athletes. There is a definitive difference between what you see on you tube and what goes on in the real world, when two people (or more) decide to do serious harm to each other. Now, it isn't going to win me this internet argument, but I can say with certainty that those stupid Aikido moves you say don't work have kept me and several of my friends from serious harm and its led to me being able to de-escalate and deal with violent encounters with real people in a way where neither of us got hurt, on many occasions. Does that mean my intellect, manhood or my kung fu is better than yours? No. What I will say is that there is perhaps more value in spending some time training with Aikido than you suggest, do with that what you will but if you can't say the same, do me the courtesy of thinking about that before you poo on my beloved art out of simple internet trolldom. Other than that, I think we are at an intellectual impasse as it stands since I'm not really wanting to preach and your not really wanting to have a productive conversation.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Of course because I am forced to invest before I can really know?

Look I haven't used healing crystals. But there is no evidence it works. So I remain unconvinced they are medicine.

Otherwise there is an entire cultural gap where I have gone off the whole belief style of argument. And prefer a more critical thinking style. It irritates me that martial arts is treated like a religion. And I think it cheapens the concept.

Really? You use a ton of logical fallacy for someone who likes critical thinking.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Really? I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you had. So why the utter certainty that you know how it is trained? Why the hard-on to attack it every chance you get? I assumed you’d been hurt by Aikido at some point.

After 26 pages or so of his commentary, I can say there is assuredly a spot on the drop bear doll where Aikido touched him.

 

[Hanzou]

Let's establish something first, I am not here to justify the martial art to you, I can explain the system to you based off of my training and experience but that's it, there's no need and its not possible to "prove" a system on a message board on the internet.

MMA is heavily favored towards making accommodations for BJJ that are unrealistic and allow for more completed techniques. when you shoot for the double leg, the part of your head left open is the spine and the back of the head behind the ears, striking this area is called rabbit punching and it is 100% banned in the UFC and most MMA competitions, so its convenient that the move that will most efficiently counter the takedown is also banned in the same arena where it is "most successful". Is there a reason? Yes, MMA is a sport, the rules in MMA favor ensuring longevity for the fighters. Shoot for a double leg in a real altercation and watch how fast you get your bell rung, that's not theory or anecdote, that's experiential wisdom, do what you want with that on your own time.

Small joint manipulation is 100% not allowed in MMA, with this and the gloves, sweat, bare skin, petroleum jelly and other oilyness during an MMA fight it makes wristlocks impractical for all intents and purposes. There's a huge difference between you grabbing my jacket at the start of a confrontation and me attempting to wristlock you and us squaring off with MMA gloves and greased up at the start of a UFC fight. There's also a threshold for what I will and won't try in a fight with someone who is also a professional fighter, before you get too excited, this list also includes the double leg as something I would write off against a trained fighter.

The piledriver and any slam that could injure the head or back of an opponent is 100% not legal in the UFC, it just so happens that this is one of the more effective ways of countering someone attempting to pull you down for some BJJ, or attempting to grapple a standing opponent. Is there a good reason for it being banned? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the RESULT, favors the BJJ practitioner.

Strikes to a downed or grounded opponents head are not allowed in the UFC, here's a disqualifying knee to the head:
https://twitter.com/btsportufc/status/1368517678420361229?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1368517678420361229|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/which-moves-illegal-ufc

What is this? 1995? In the UFC yes some of those moves are illegal, but in other MMA organizations they aren't. One FC for example allows strikes to grounded opponents, and Bjj does just fine in those promotions as well. We should also not forget that what started all of this in the first place was the original UFCs, were everything you mentioned was fair game. Bjj still did just fine.

 

[Martial D]

Let's establish something first, I am not here to justify the martial art to you, I can explain the system to you based off of my training and experience but that's it, there's no need and its not possible to "prove" a system on a message board on the internet.

MMA is heavily favored towards making accommodations for BJJ that are unrealistic and allow for more completed techniques. when you shoot for the double leg, the part of your head left open is the spine and the back of the head behind the ears, striking this area is called rabbit punching and it is 100% banned in the UFC and most MMA competitions, so its convenient that the move that will most efficiently counter the takedown is also banned in the same arena where it is "most successful". Is there a reason? Yes, MMA is a sport, the rules in MMA favor ensuring longevity for the fighters. Shoot for a double leg in a real altercation and watch how fast you get your bell rung, that's not theory or anecdote, that's experiential wisdom, do what you want with that on your own time.

Small joint manipulation is 100% not allowed in MMA, with this and the gloves, sweat, bare skin, petroleum jelly and other oilyness during an MMA fight it makes wristlocks impractical for all intents and purposes. There's a huge difference between you grabbing my jacket at the start of a confrontation and me attempting to wristlock you and us squaring off with MMA gloves and greased up at the start of a UFC fight. There's also a threshold for what I will and won't try in a fight with someone who is also a professional fighter, before you get too excited, this list also includes the double leg as something I would write off against a trained fighter.

The piledriver and any slam that could injure the head or back of an opponent is 100% not legal in the UFC, it just so happens that this is one of the more effective ways of countering someone attempting to pull you down for some BJJ, or attempting to grapple a standing opponent. Is there a good reason for it being banned? Yes. That doesn't change the fact that the RESULT, favors the BJJ practitioner.

Strikes to a downed or grounded opponents head are not allowed in the UFC, here's a disqualifying knee to the head:
https://twitter.com/btsportufc/status/1368517678420361229?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1368517678420361229|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https://www.sportskeeda.com/mma/which-moves-illegal-ufc

IS there a reason for this? Yes, a good one, having to do with the longevity and safety of the fighters involved. Still, it's another example of a protection enjoyed by BJJ that falsely inflates the effectiveness of the system. BJJ is great at ground fighting, the problem is you don't want to be on the ground in a fight and when you "shoot" at an opponents waist, fight on your back, etc, your going to tend to catch a beating for exposing your self. The system isn't worthless, in fact there's an argument to be made that BJJ should be integrated into more systems so that you have the tools to escape a fight on the ground or to finish an altercation that goes there, albeit with some caveats. I could make the same claim for Aikido however in regards to how it is incomplete as a single style but able to wonderfully complement a more traditional striking system. You can't simply point at BJJ and say "this works" and then point to Aikido and say "this doesn't work" as blanket statements towards the whole system.

Your argument "we don't see guys escaping grabs with wrist locks" or that "other arts do the thing that they claim" is more false pretense. Aikido does what it claims to do as much as any other system. Those stupid wrist locks you say don't work are taught to the police and military because they do work, when correctly applied, despite what you or I may think about these classes overall, they are taught because they work, if they didn't we wouldn't have a hundred years of Aikido and Judo techniques being integrated into law enforcement and military training, it would have been opted out by now if it were so wildly ineffective. Add to that, many police departments mandate those techniques trained in their classes as the ONLY ones available to officers for liability purposes, if there was no merit to them, we would have seen an outcry of officers protesting their ineffectual training. Say what you want, but the average cop is going to see and participate in more violent altercations than most other citizens. More cops use these techniques than most martial artists ever get to use their martial arts in street fights.

There's nothing wrong with the tools in the system, they work, when properly applied. Conflating youtube videos as the final arbiter of what is real is stupid, by that standard, no martial arts moves work other than a handful of arm bars and rear naked chokes. I've used my Aikido as much or more than most of the other tools in my personal tool kit in a variety of altercations, your mileage may vary, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is, I'm not here to convert you to the faith of Aikido, I'm simply trying to explain the dissociation between what you are watching on TV and the system itself, if you are already of the mindset that Aikido is 100% garbage, I can't change that but it doesn't win you the argument either, its just your opinion.

Here's some more anecdotal information, I don't know what your experience level in actual violence is, as someone who has spent time in war, the ring and as a beat cop I can tell you that war is not a street fight and neither are the same as a duel in the ring between two athletes. There is a definitive difference between what you see on you tube and what goes on in the real world, when two people (or more) decide to do serious harm to each other. Now, it isn't going to win me this internet argument, but I can say with certainty that those stupid Aikido moves you say don't work have kept me and several of my friends from serious harm and its led to me being able to de-escalate and deal with violent encounters with real people in a way where neither of us got hurt, on many occasions. Does that mean my intellect, manhood or my kung fu is better than yours? No. What I will say is that there is perhaps more value in spending some time training with Aikido than you suggest, do with that what you will but if you can't say the same, do me the courtesy of thinking about that before you poo on my beloved art out of simple internet trolldom. Other than that, I think we are at an intellectual impasse as it stands since I'm not really wanting to preach and your not really wanting to have a productive conversation.

I have already corrected you on this once, but wrist locks and ankle locks are completely legal under all MMA rulesets. Small joint manipulation applies to toes and fingers. Also your assertion that MMA fighters grease themselves is incorrect..that is completely illegal.

Yours facts...check them.