Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

Like say..take ANY alive style. Boxing..mt..kickboxing.. wrestling..BJJ..even karate

Take someone that knows exclusively only one of these things and I can point to where it was successful in competition.

Why not aikido?

I'm sorry, how many times has Karate or wrestling or boxing won the UFC since thats the yard stick being used? How often is any system outside of boxing/wrestling, BJJ and maybe parts of muay thai used in the UFC or any other MMA event? How many MMA fights have been won by one of those four styles exclusively? By that logic and the available data, BJJ is the only effective martial art and Gracie settled the whole argument about applicable martial arts in the mid nineties. Aikido has one school out of all of them that has competitive tournaments. Why don't we see wing chun or any kung fu in the UFC? Are the Chinese systems worthless since they don't compete in MMA? Once again, you are making a false argument hoping to reframe the topic of conversation.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Because I don't need to. The ones who have stepped up have already proved what I'd be proving, so that little bout would do nothing for me.

The fact that you don't understand that is hilarious, as is your attempt to deflect. However, it just goes to show what I said earlier; We both know you're not going to do what the MA Journey guy did. Don't worry, it's the typical 1995 behavior that you've exhibited during this entire thread.

Really? I'm pretty sure I have spent the entire thread as the only Aikido practitioner on your board willing to talk and answer questions, heck, I joined the board to say hello and post. I've been very open and honest about my experience and my opinions, including the negative ones, on Aikido this whole time. You came along and challenged me to a MMA death match in order to prove myself and your reasoning is that I critiqued a video about a guy who gets corrected by a guy in that video. What it looks like to me is this didn't turn into the usual lets bag on Aikido koombaya session you might have been expecting and now its the usual BJJ/MMA dogpile argument about why Aikido sucks to make me go away. Thats fine, its just a silly argument, especially since you try to cover it up with this false humble/high road routine. You came here and made a claim that Aikido is a bunch of wrist locks and it doesn't work, that might work with your buddy dropbear and Martial D here but its pretty weak. I've given you my background and my collection of lived experiences, you've made snide remarks and told me to go fight people and film it and even when its been pointed out to you how silly you are being you double down with more posturing but I'm being intellectually dishonest? Some one needs a nap.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Well. I have read your posts. It seems to mostly boil down to your continued (incorrect) assertions that MMA fighters grease up and that wrist locks are illegal in MMA.

But you haven't addressed why (besides those two debunked assertions) why it works "as advertised" but fails utterly in a competitive format.

I've put much more detail than that into my posts. Also, I'm not arguing for Aikido in a professional MMA fight, I'm pretty clearly on record saying its not good for that.

 

[Hanzou]

Really? I'm pretty sure I have spent the entire thread as the only Aikido practitioner on your board willing to talk and answer questions, heck, I joined the board to say hello and post. I've been very open and honest about my experience and my opinions, including the negative ones, on Aikido this whole time. You came along and challenged me to a MMA death match. in order to prove myself and your reasoning is that I critiqued a video about a guy who gets corrected by a guy in that video. What it looks like to me is this didn't turn into the usual lets bag on Aikido koombaya session you might have been expecting and now its the usual BJJ/MMA dogpile argument about why Aikido sucks to make me go away. Thats fine, its just a silly argument, especially since you try to cover it up with this false humble/high road routine. You came here and made a claim that Aikido is a bunch of wrist locks and it doesn't work, that might work with your buddy dropbear and Martial D here but its pretty weak. I've given you my background and my collection of lived experiences, you've made snide remarks and told me to go fight people and film it and even when its been pointed out to you how silly you are being you double down with more posturing but I'm being intellectually dishonest? Some one needs a nap.

Yeah, let's discuss what really happened;

You said that MA Journey guy is doing bad Aikido and is misrepresenting the art. When asked to do what he did and step up to the plate, you backed down.

You posted a video from a bitter karateka about how the Gracies fooled people with the UFC. When pressed about what points in the video you thought were "great", you backed down again.

When asked multiple times by Martial D and others to explain why Aikido is absent from competitive competition, you deflect, change the subject, and go on victim rants about how everyone is after you. In short, you backed down again.

No one is telling you to participate in a "MMA death match", and no one is saying Aikido sucks. What people are saying is that you're full of poop.

 

[Martial D]

I've put much more detail than that into my posts. Also, I'm not arguing for Aikido in a professional MMA fight, I'm pretty clearly on record saying its not good for that.

Ok. If it's not good for fighting, what are you trying to argue here?

If you're comfortable admitting that as practiced it is co-operative dance, so am I.

Or are you arguing that it's useful in a fight. But only against people that don't know how to fight..in which case I would ask to what end it is useful to prop up mediocrity.

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is here.

Look, like every other child of the 90s, I thought Stephen Segal movies were badass, and I would like nothing more for that to resemble the truth.

I also have no problem with aikido. If putting on the uniform and doing the rather elegant looking cooperative displays gets your juices flowing than cool. More power to you.

But you seem to be arguing that aikido is useful for fighting, because it adds some ethereal X factors to exchanges, but you can't seem to pin them down exactly besides, to paraphrase 'ways of receiving attacks'

Can you not see why this would be problematic to someone that measures against facts and evidence?

Have you heard of the sunk cost fallacy? Something to consider.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah, let's discuss what really happened;

You said that MA Journey guy is doing bad Aikido and is misrepresenting the art. When asked to do what he did and step up to the plate, you backed down.

You posted a video from a bitter karateka about how the Gracies fooled people with the UFC. When pressed about what points in the video you thought were "great", you backed down again.

When asked multiple times by Martial D and others to explain why Aikido is absent from competitive competition, you deflect, change the subject, and go on victim rants about how everyone is after you. In short, you backed down again.

No one is telling you to participate in a "MMA death match", and no one is saying Aikido sucks. What people are saying is that you're full of poop.

Let's go point by point for you

- the MA journey video is him attempting to do a kote gaeshi against a BJJ guy, he throws a series of half hearted grabs for the guys wrist, using a technique designed to be a response to a grab (thats how its taught) and when he tries to apply the lock he does so improperly, prompting the BJJ guy to show him how to make it work. This is then used as a rationale for why the entirety of Aikido is bad (much like your argument). I'm pretty confidant in saying that's a bad example and its misrepresentative, someone else said the same thing, but didn't get the same death match challenge from you. The BJJ guy applied the lock correctly, yet you don't demand that the Aikido "master" performs to the same standard as the guy not in the martial art?

- I posted a video that made you angry and refused to go point by point with you until you fully committed to your preposterous Count Dante esque dojo war challenge. You can't be bothered to stay on topic or to have a rationale conversation, so why should I waste time giving you more bullet points to cherry pick in a desperate attempt to find something to grasp on to make your argument? If you want my specific points, I used the video to spin you up since you were already getting upset, instead of taking the jibe you went off like a bull seeing red, demanding I argue with you about it, when I declined, you got all sassy and started stamping your feet.

- Aikido isn't any good, by itself, in mixed martial arts (I have said this, multiple times now), it has no "finishing moves" and the way its being practiced in all of your examples, its not using striking. So lets ask ourselves, why is no one going into an MMA ring and attempting to just throw the other guy around for the entire match until he gives up? I've never taken the position or made the claim that Aikido is good for MMA, so why would I attempt to defend YOUR statement? You and Martial D are doing the math that MMA is the only way to prove a martial arts efficacy and asking me to defend against your assumption. Why are Aikido and Judo used by police and military organizations if they don't work? You and the other two have made a very long winded argument centered around wrist locks. The same wrist locks you are arguing about and that have evidently formed the entirety of your personal knowledge of the system, by your own words, are taught in the entry level portion of the Marine Corps martial arts system, is that dumb? Are the US Marines a bunch of incompetent idiots who should know better and are using bad hand to hand techniques?

I'm making the claim that Aikido works and does what it is supposed to do enough to be effective in most real world scenarios. No one has ever done an Aikido road show claiming it is meant to defeat all challengers and is the superior system, that's your assumption and your argument hinges on my personal ability to defeat any and all challengers for my claim that Aikido is an effective martial art as a test of that art or I somehow don't know what I'm talking about and both I and Aikido are somehow dishonored. You are also asking me to certify any and all schools and filmed examples you can find, any and all techniques and I've said I wont do that, but that makes me full of it?

You are demanding and have demanded for several pages in this thread, that I qualify my argument by fighting, and filming an open challenge to the BJJ community to "prove" myself to you, a challenge you were unwilling to accept yourself, I was even nice and asked for it to be just "a couple Aikido guys" instead of your demand that I fight all the BJJ schools in the world and revolutionize MMA, I think you got off on the easier challenge and yet you declined. I set the bar low for you based on your rhetoric and logic and you still went full teenager. I'm 37, I have TBI, arthritis and a host of other things from a career spent fighting other human beings in the Marines and as a martial artist and as a police officer and doing cool stuff that causes joint damage and degenerates things needed to have a highlander fight to proclaim myself god king of your BJJ school, that ship has sailed sir. I'm not trying to have a battle royale with every meat head and internet troll who enjoys this Aikido is bad argument, that doesn't mean I or Aikido are wrong. You don't have to believe me, actually, as the person saying it doesn't work, the burden of proof lies on you and the other two children making the argument you are.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually they would. Unlike my persona here, in person I would never tell someone that what they've learned is a joke (even if it was). Instead, I would have done exactly what this guy did; Take his technique and show him how to properly do it.

You are proving my point. If the technique was actually trash then there is no way you can correctly do the technique so that it functions. It would lack the concept and foundation required to be functional. The BJJ was able to show how to do the technique properly because it was a valid technique. It was just the other guy was doing it wrong so everything that follows would be wrong too.

If the techniques weren't valid, then you wouldn't waste your time "trying to make it work" You would just be honest with the person and tell them them the truth.
No BJJ coach, or instructor is going to lower their image by trying to take serious something that isn't valid, or something that they didn't think could be valid.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ok. If it's not good for fighting, what are you trying to argue here?

If you're comfortable admitting that as practiced it is co-operative dance, so am I.

Or are you arguing that it's useful in a fight. But only against people that don't know how to fight..in which case I would ask to what end it is useful to prop up mediocrity.

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is here.

Look, like every other child of the 90s, I thought Stephen Segal movies were badass, and I would like nothing more for that to resemble the truth.

I also have no problem with aikido. If putting on the uniform and doing the rather elegant looking cooperative displays gets your juices flowing than cool. More power to you.

But you seem to be arguing that aikido is useful for fighting, because it adds some ethereal X factors to exchanges, but you can't seem to pin them down exactly besides, to paraphrase 'ways of receiving attacks'

Can you not see why this would be problematic to someone that measures against facts and evidence?

Have you heard of the sunk cost fallacy? Something to consider.

There's fighting and self defense and then there's sporting competitions. These are different things, with very different goals and training. You should not conflate the two. I've never seen a real fight go longer than maybe two minutes, the average boxing match is fifteen minutes and the average UFC match is nine minutes. Link me a nine minute long fight outside of a sports arena. Everytime this argument goes out, it always comes down to "MMA rocks and Aikido is bs" and without fail its "link video and fight me". I've seen it happen to other martial arts, but I'm beginning to think its just the appointed place for now that Aikido is going to have to simply endure this spot thanks to Joe Rogan and teenage martial arts culture. It used to be "BJJ is the best and everything else sucks" but now I guess its down to Aikido as the whipping post with the other forms being incidental targets.

 

[geezer]

...I'm not trying to have a battle royale with every meat head and internet troll who enjoys this Aikido is bad argument...

Interestingly, in one of his most recent videos, Rokas included several other martial arts besides Aikido in the "ineffective" category ...and my own core art of Wing Chun was one of them. He challenged practitioners of the arts mentioned to respond, and if they could, show him videos of honest sparring and training with real resistance to back up their arguments.

Dunno about the other arts listed, but the WC community definitely responded, and now Rokas has put out a new video discussing that response. I started a thread on it and included a link down in the Wing Chun forum. Your comments would be most welcome.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The wrist locks are universal, but it's the entries where the differences lie.

The technique is more important than the entry. If you get the technique wrong then nothing works. If you really dig deep into your system then you should be able to see that there are many entries. I literally just showed my son this today. I took one technique from Jow Ga and showed multiple entries for that one technique.

Here's an example. Technique is side kick. Entry Points on your opponent: From the front, sides, from the back, and at an angle. Entry Points from my position, From the front of me, to my sides at an angle, behind me. Some entry points are easier than others. Some require that you opponent has their back to you, some require that you have your back to your opponent. Some requires that you lure your opponent while other's require that you attack your opponent.

The trick is getting them into that position. Unfortunately for Aikido, their entry system is grossly inefficient and outdated.

People who do wrist locks will tell you the same thing. They work better when your opponent doesn't know it's coming. There are many ways to trick someone.

I would LOVE to see Aikido adopt some of them. They never will, but if they did they could really revolutionize their system.

I would be happy to see Aikido as well as other martial arts train for function. I think that would revolutionize a lot of systems in terms of martial arts applications. Some of these systems Like TKD Dance are alreayd making revolutionary changes. It's just not the changes I care for lol.

I think Aikido has some valid techniques for fighting applications, I just think most to train it don't do so for function. Like someone stated here sort of Aikido for Health and Tai Chi for health. where techniques are blurred shadows of function. In terms of sparring against other systems, I've only seen a very few do so.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ok. If it's not good for fighting, what are you trying to argue here?

If you're comfortable admitting that as practiced it is co-operative dance, so am I.

Or are you arguing that it's useful in a fight. But only against people that don't know how to fight..in which case I would ask to what end it is useful to prop up mediocrity.

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is here.

Look, like every other child of the 90s, I thought Stephen Segal movies were badass, and I would like nothing more for that to resemble the truth.

I also have no problem with aikido. If putting on the uniform and doing the rather elegant looking cooperative displays gets your juices flowing than cool. More power to you.

But you seem to be arguing that aikido is useful for fighting, because it adds some ethereal X factors to exchanges, but you can't seem to pin them down exactly besides, to paraphrase 'ways of receiving attacks'

Can you not see why this would be problematic to someone that measures against facts and evidence?

Have you heard of the sunk cost fallacy? Something to consider.

I missed two things here,

1) 90's Steven Segal movies were indeed badass, the new ones are just depressing, also, none of them are Aikido. I am super considering doing the Glimmer man routine when I get old enough to be considered senile though. Cinema gold that one.

2) If you would like to discuss specifics on how Aikido is practical, we can do that. We have to stop the silly MMA herpaderp and I'm not going to waste my breath if you keep trying to reframe the argument into positions that I am not taking. But we can start over and go in depth on specifics, like gentlemen if you want to at least refrain from the challenge that its all mystical arm waving for the purposes of polite discussion. That would give you the ability to challenge me on an actual technical point instead of an emotional one. So far however we haven't gotten past the usual BJJ gang, west side story dance scene yet.

What do you say, do we take the Buddhist path for old Stevie? Or is it just Rock and roll?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Interestingly, in one of his most recent videos, Rokas included several other martial arts besides Aikido in the "ineffective" category ...and my own core art of Wing Chun was one of them. He challenged practitioners of the arts mentioned to respond, and if they could, show him videos of honest sparring and training with real resistance to back up their arguments.

Dunno about the other arts listed, but the WC community definitely responded, and now Rokas has put out a new video discussing that response. I started a thread on it and included a link down in the Wing Chun forum. Your comments would be most welcome.

Well that's just silly, Wing Chun is demonstrably pretty awesome, I will have to go check that one out tomorrow, its even easier to defend than my mystic Aikido arm waving.

 

[Shatteredzen]

The technique is more important than the entry. If you get the technique wrong then nothing works. If you really dig deep into your system then you should be able to see that there are many entries. I literally just showed my son this today. I took one technique from Jow Ga and showed multiple entries for that one technique.

Here's an example. Technique is side kick. Entry Points on your opponent: From the front, sides, from the back, and at an angle. Entry Points from my position, From the front of me, to my sides at an angle, behind me. Some entry points are easier than others. Some require that you opponent has their back to you, some require that you have your back to your opponent. Some requires that you lure your opponent while other's require that you attack your opponent.

People who do wrist locks will tell you the same thing. They work better when your opponent doesn't know it's coming. There are many ways to trick someone.

I would be happy to see Aikido as well as other martial arts train for function. I think that would revolutionize a lot of systems in terms of martial arts applications. Some of these systems Like TKD Dance are alreayd making revolutionary changes. It's just not the changes I care for lol.

I think Aikido has some valid techniques for fighting applications, I just think most to train it don't do so for function. Like someone stated here sort of Aikido for Health and Tai Chi for health. where techniques are blurred shadows of function. In terms of sparring against other systems, I've only seen a very few do so.

The entry method, footwork, positioning, etc is big. One thing I learned and have not seen replicated outside of the Aikidoflow UK school is consistent practice on entries and correctly intercepting the line of an opponents attack at its place of origin. That IS something I have carried into everything, its why I put so much emphasis on Aikidoflows hand placement/positioning, because I can clearly see how he uses the hands to first intercept the origin point of the movement and then to break the alignment of the attack, many of the techniques do not work against resistance (too slow) unless you are successful in getting inside while the opponent executes their movement. A good example besides blocking a punch, putting your foot in front of the toes of a kick as the kick leaves the ground, (thats a tai chi movement but its totally applicable to Aikido principles). Placing your hand on the small of the back of the person trying to hip toss you, it takes a few pounds of energy to disrupt the pivot/movement and make you impossible to throw/complete the movement. Many times, a simple movement / entrance with almost no force and very little energy can stop an attack if you do everything right, if you are "receiving" the attack, sometimes it takes very little to simply continue that attack and let it go past you. All of this is dependent on how you choose to move, enter or avoid and then exploit the opening. The difference between a purely Aikido approach and a "mixed" one, is I would probably choose to meet the persons momentum with my own, so for example, a punch intercepted at the arm pit / pectoral I might shift into a grab and turn that into a throw by going for a hip toss or shoulder throw or I might try to turn in with an elbow to the throat or face or a "twelve six" (straight down) elbow towards the neck/spine/collarbone if they leaned farther inside as I made the interception of their punching arm.

 

[Martial D]

Interestingly, in one of his most recent videos, Rokas included several other martial arts besides Aikido in the "ineffective" category ...and my own core art of Wing Chun was one of them. He challenged practitioners of the arts mentioned to respond, and if they could, show him videos of honest sparring and training with real resistance to back up their arguments.

Dunno about the other arts listed, but the WC community definitely responded, and now Rokas has put out a new video discussing that response. I started a thread on it and included a link down in the Wing Chun forum. Your comments would be most welcome.

Anyone can create a set of movements and teach it to others. The fact that this mostly happened a long time ago and has been taught to many is neither here nor there with regards to whether it does what those that practice it purport it to do.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, let's discuss what really happened;

You said that MA Journey guy is doing bad Aikido and is misrepresenting the art. When asked to do what he did and step up to the plate, you backed down.

You posted a video from a bitter karateka about how the Gracies fooled people with the UFC. When pressed about what points in the video you thought were "great", you backed down again.

When asked multiple times by Martial D and others to explain why Aikido is absent from competitive competition, you deflect, change the subject, and go on victim rants about how everyone is after you. In short, you backed down again.

No one is telling you to participate in a "MMA death match", and no one is saying Aikido sucks. What people are saying is that you're full of poop.

Although if he wants to participate in a MMA death match I am all for him living out his dreams.

 

[drop bear]

Interestingly, in one of his most recent videos, Rokas included several other martial arts besides Aikido in the "ineffective" category ...and my own core art of Wing Chun was one of them. He challenged practitioners of the arts mentioned to respond, and if they could, show him videos of honest sparring and training with real resistance to back up their arguments.

Dunno about the other arts listed, but the WC community definitely responded, and now Rokas has put out a new video discussing that response. I started a thread on it and included a link down in the Wing Chun forum. Your comments would be most welcome.

I saw that too. And was trying to find a way to shoe horn it in.

It is definitely a change in mindset.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interestingly, in one of his most recent videos, Rokas included several other martial arts besides Aikido in the "ineffective" category ...and my own core art of Wing Chun was one of them. He challenged practitioners of the arts mentioned to respond, and if they could, show him videos of honest sparring and training with real resistance to back up their arguments.

I saw that video to. I was like. "Please say Jow Ga,, Please say Jow Ga. lol." I was surprised that he called out Wng Chun.. I was like, "Soooo the guy who can't jab is going to call out the Wing Chun group."

It was almost like he was saying that just because he didn't get good training meant that everyone else didn't either. He was so willing to put so many other groups in the same boat that he was in.

 

[drop bear]

I saw that video to. I was like. "Please say Jow Ga,, Please say Jow Ga. lol." I was surprised that he called out Wng Chun.. I was like, "Soooo the guy who can't jab is going to call out the Wing Chun group."

It was almost like he was saying that just because he didn't get good training meant that everyone else didn't either. He was so willing to put so many other groups in the same boat that he was in.

I think the question needs to be asked and answered. Otherwise you get this weird magical logic which generally doesn't solve anything.

 

[Martial D]

There's fighting and self defense and then there's sporting competitions. These are different things, with very different goals and training. You should not conflate the two. I've never seen a real fight go longer than maybe two minutes, the average boxing match is fifteen minutes and the average UFC match is nine minutes. Link me a nine minute long fight outside of a sports arena. Everytime this argument goes out, it always comes down to "MMA rocks and Aikido is bs" and without fail its "link video and fight me". I've seen it happen to other martial arts, but I'm beginning to think its just the appointed place for now that Aikido is going to have to simply endure this spot thanks to Joe Rogan and teenage martial arts culture. It used to be "BJJ is the best and everything else sucks" but now I guess its down to Aikido as the whipping post with the other forms being incidental targets.

As for your teenage quip..I'm in my mid forties, and have been doing both TMA and MMA/BJJ for decades. I'm not some kid that has been enthralled by Rogan.

Secondly, I find your new argumentation vector a little strange. What does the average time spent in a fight have to do with the effectiveness of what is being done? Yes pro fighters tend to go longer. They have amazing cardio.

Are you saying aikido is only effective when neither party is tired? I fail to see the connection you seem to be trying to draw here.

Thirdly, 'self defense' is a weasel word that can mean anything from fighting to running away to situational awareness, which all and all seems unrelated. Fighting and sporting competition is the same but for the rules. A punch in a cage hurts the same as a punch in the bar, and uses the same mechanics. I can only assume you are implying the rules of sport fighting impede aikido from working there, which leaves me only to ask..which rules exactly?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I saw that too. And was trying to find a way to shoe horn it in.

It is definitely a change in mindset.

Dude should have joined Martial Talk and he would have had a better understanding of how to train lol. His exposure to other martial arts seem limited