Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

There is literally nothing Chinese martial arts does that isn't done better in one of those named styles.

It's not the System it's the person. I think my Chinese sweeps are better than BJJ sweeps. I would out perform Muay Thai in that area. I think my foot hooks are exceptionally well in comparison too. As a matter of fact the sweeps I do are illegal in Boxing, Muay Thai, in TKD competitions, is some Karate competitions. They are definitely better than wrestlers sweeps.

If we talk about the Complete Kung Fu system. Then you would have to include the weapons as well. We talk about Arnis weapons, so it should be fair that if a kung fu student knows how to use a staff then it's a fighting skill.

But just because I know how to use it doesn't mean every kung fu person knows how to use the same techniques I train. It's not about CMA. It's about the individual training it. Which is why to this day, I can only show you 2 people who actually fight using Jow Ga kung fu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t think this is true, necessarily. It’s about ROI. BJJ guys who want to be successful in MMA don’t just pick up a few techniques from must Thai. They train the entire style. Wrestlers train all of BJJ. Etc.

Those would be the exceptions. There are some MMA fighters who appreciate the system and they want to learn the system and not just a technique. You can always tell who is just picking up the technique, because when they throw it in the fight it looks like someone who has trained it for a few months. Most famous would be Ronda Rousey. You can tell by her technique, which system she trains and which system she was just trying to pick up techniques from.

If a professional MMAist believes training Aikido would benefit them, they will do it all the way

Only some would do it all the way. No one learns to be a good fighter in a few months. It takes time and learning to be functional in Aikido, Kung Fu, TKD and some other martial arts isn't 1 year crash course and your good..

 

[JowGaWolf]

You think it is a 'healthy mindset' to just believe something without any evidence it might be true?

Let's see. I believe in God. Ask me to prove that God is real. I can't. I have healthy mindset. So to answer your question. Yes.

I train Jow Ga kung fu. My teacher told me that the long fist punches work like A. and I've never seen anyone actually use them before in my life. I've never seen my Jow Ga teacher use the kung fu. The first person I've ever seen use Jow Ga Kung Fu is myself, and the only reason I was able to use it, is because I believed in what my teachers were telling me. Not only do I have a healthy mindset, but I know how to use Jow Ga and it works like my teachers told me it would.

@Ivan asks for advice from people in this forum. He doesn't know us personally. He listened to the people who said they had some good advice for him. He's never seen you guys fight, but he listened. He has a healthy mindset even though he's never seen any of us do what we recommend.

If your trust in people is so shallow that you don't have some kind of trust in someone, then your mindset is probably really bad, and you probably have some other issues that need attention.

So to answer your question. Yes I think it's a healthy mindset. to believe something without evidence. The problem isn't the evidence. The concern you should be more focused on is where you get your sources from. If you have good sources then it's less of an issue to "believe without evidence."

Keep in mind some of that "Evidence" that people claim is BS. Which is why you see Joe Rogan's attitude about TMA shift.

 

[dvcochran]

Let's see. I believe in God. Ask me to prove that God is real. I can't. I have healthy mindset. So to answer your question. Yes.

I train Jow Ga kung fu. My teacher told me that the long fist punches work like A. and I've never seen anyone actually use them before in my life. I've never seen my Jow Ga teacher use the kung fu. The first person I've ever seen use Jow Ga Kung Fu is myself, and the only reason I was able to use it, is because I believed in what my teachers were telling me. Not only do I have a healthy mindset, but I know how to use Jow Ga and it works like my teachers told me it would.

@Ivan asks for advice from people in this forum. He doesn't know us personally. He listened to the people who said they had some good advice for him. He's never seen you guys fight, but he listened. He has a healthy mindset even though he's never seen any of us do what we recommend.

If your trust in people is so shallow that you don't have some kind of trust in someone, then your mindset is probably really bad, and you probably have some other issues that need attention.

So to answer your question. Yes I think it's a healthy mindset. to believe something without evidence. The problem isn't the evidence. The concern you should be more focused on is where you get your sources from. If you have good sources then it's less of an issue to "believe without evidence."

Keep in mind some of that "Evidence" that people claim is BS. Which is why you see Joe Rogan's attitude about TMA shift.

Fantastic post!

When "progressive thinkers" as me about God, I usually apply negative logic. "Prove to me God does not exist. Firsthand proof of God's existences is old, but compared to most of the arguments against it, this evidence is almost brand new. The conversations usually end pretty quick.

 

[Steve]

Those would be the exceptions. There are some MMA fighters who appreciate the system and they want to learn the system and not just a technique. You can always tell who is just picking up the technique, because when they throw it in the fight it looks like someone who has trained it for a few months. Most famous would be Ronda Rousey. You can tell by her technique, which system she trains and which system she was just trying to pick up techniques from.

Really? I disagree. Don't get me wrong... in a universe of individuals, I'm sure there are a few folks who represent just about every possible motivation. That said, I think what is far more likely is that they're just not very skilled yet and are still learning stuff.

Point is that what you see probably isn't cherry picking. It's just the normal learning process where people who are less skilled apply those skills in context until they become more skilled and eventually are experts.

Let me say it another way. If aikidoka were to apply their skills in a fight regularly throughout their learning of the style, they would probably look like they are cherry picking techniques. If you watch BJJ white belts compete, they know how to do about 4 things. In their matches, they do those four things pretty much over and over. They're not cherry picking... that's just what they've learned so far, and it's perfectly natural.

What you don't see are BJJ practitioners not competing until they are black belts, and then unleashing a fully developed arsenal of skills on their components at a high level. That's unrealistic. And yet we are told that this is the status quo for styles like aikido.

Only some would do it all the way. No one learns to be a good fighter in a few months. It takes time and learning to be functional in Aikido, Kung Fu, TKD and some other martial arts isn't 1 year crash course and your good..

Exactly, only some wouldn't do it all the way. No one learns to be a good fighter in a few months. It takes time and learning... and real practice in context applying skills... in Aikido, Kung Fu, TKD, and some other martial arts isn't 1 year crash course. The issue here isn't the medium. It's that I don't think you don't recognize application when you see it. And so when you see less skilled martial artists actually developing practical skills, it seems foreign.

 

[Steve]

Let's see. I believe in God. Ask me to prove that God is real. I can't. I have healthy mindset. So to answer your question. Yes.

I train Jow Ga kung fu. My teacher told me that the long fist punches work like A. and I've never seen anyone actually use them before in my life. I've never seen my Jow Ga teacher use the kung fu. The first person I've ever seen use Jow Ga Kung Fu is myself, and the only reason I was able to use it, is because I believed in what my teachers were telling me. Not only do I have a healthy mindset, but I know how to use Jow Ga and it works like my teachers told me it would.

@Ivan asks for advice from people in this forum. He doesn't know us personally. He listened to the people who said they had some good advice for him. He's never seen you guys fight, but he listened. He has a healthy mindset even though he's never seen any of us do what we recommend.

If your trust in people is so shallow that you don't have some kind of trust in someone, then your mindset is probably really bad, and you probably have some other issues that need attention.

So to answer your question. Yes I think it's a healthy mindset. to believe something without evidence. The problem isn't the evidence. The concern you should be more focused on is where you get your sources from. If you have good sources then it's less of an issue to "believe without evidence."

Keep in mind some of that "Evidence" that people claim is BS. Which is why you see Joe Rogan's attitude about TMA shift.

So, faith and a direct comparison to religion. Is that really where we're at? Well, I guess it's to be expected.

When you say faith, I would replace that with trust. Whether your inclination is to be trusting or not, the goal is to not be a rube by being blindly trusting. When you trust people who are not trustworthy, you are naive and foolish.

We could talk for weeks about what makes folks trustworthy. But insisting that folks should have faith in practical skillsets for which there is no actual evidence of results is not one of those.

I hate that I'm in some way defending Joe Rogan, whom I think is a total d-bag. But when Joe Rogan's attitude about a TMA shifts, what do you think caused that? Two things, IMO. A mind open to learning something new AND evidence. And the evidence is usually in the form of an individual in that style breaking away from tradition and doing the hard work, as an individual, to be able to develop the skillset beyond theory... which usually means learning a lot of stuff that's not part of that style.

The lesson within MMA is to evaluate whether learning the style is worth the effort. Some folks jump all the way in. Some don't.

The lesson by traditional practitioners of the style is often an unrealistic sense of validation that is completely disconnected from the training and application that individual took to bridge the gap between conceptual understanding and actual skill.

All that said, I think if we're at the god stage of the discussion, this is a good time for me to bid this thread adieu. I just don't have the energy for it.

 

[Martial D]

Let's see. I believe in God. Ask me to prove that God is real. I can't. I have healthy mindset. So to answer your question. Yes.

I train Jow Ga kung fu. My teacher told me that the long fist punches work like A. and I've never seen anyone actually use them before in my life. I've never seen my Jow Ga teacher use the kung fu. The first person I've ever seen use Jow Ga Kung Fu is myself, and the only reason I was able to use it, is because I believed in what my teachers were telling me. Not only do I have a healthy mindset, but I know how to use Jow Ga and it works like my teachers told me it would.

@Ivan asks for advice from people in this forum. He doesn't know us personally. He listened to the people who said they had some good advice for him. He's never seen you guys fight, but he listened. He has a healthy mindset even though he's never seen any of us do what we recommend.

If your trust in people is so shallow that you don't have some kind of trust in someone, then your mindset is probably really bad, and you probably have some other issues that need attention.

So to answer your question. Yes I think it's a healthy mindset. to believe something without evidence. The problem isn't the evidence. The concern you should be more focused on is where you get your sources from. If you have good sources then it's less of an issue to "believe without evidence."

Keep in mind some of that "Evidence" that people claim is BS. Which is why you see Joe Rogan's attitude about TMA shift.

This explains so much.

 

[Martial D]

Fantastic post!

When "progressive thinkers" as me about God, I usually apply negative logic. "Prove to me God does not exist. Firsthand proof of God's existences is old, but compared to most of the arguments against it, this evidence is almost brand new. The conversations usually end pretty quick.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Martial D]

It's not the System it's the person. I think my Chinese sweeps are better than BJJ sweeps. I would out perform Muay Thai in that area. I think my foot hooks are exceptionally well in comparison too. As a matter of fact the sweeps I do are illegal in Boxing, Muay Thai, in TKD competitions, is some Karate competitions. They are definitely better than wrestlers sweeps.

If we talk about the Complete Kung Fu system. Then you would have to include the weapons as well. We talk about Arnis weapons, so it should be fair that if a kung fu student knows how to use a staff then it's a fighting skill.

But just because I know how to use it doesn't mean every kung fu person knows how to use the same techniques I train. It's not about CMA. It's about the individual training it. Which is why to this day, I can only show you 2 people who actually fight using Jow Ga kung fu.

If one person can't make something work ...it's the person

If nobody can...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"f you and I are going to compete against each other, and start at a simlar age, etc., then the shorter learning curve has the edge. So a lot of stuff that works over time, simply isn't efficient enough (in learning hours) to be worth getting into - as a system - for competitors."

This. If the stuff works. Even over time it is still worth knowing for competitors.

It is where stuff doesn't work over time that would be the issue.

I'm talking about whole systems, rather than techniques. I'd agree entirely with your statement, where techniques and tactics are concerned. But if a system delivers on a slow learning curve, it means a competitor learning that system are always "behind" compared to someone learning a system that delivers significantly faster results. So, if you and I both train in systems that are capable of producing a similar result at an "intermediate" level, where "intermediate" is matters. If you can get to that functional level in 2 years, and I need 5 to get there, I'll never remain competitive with you. Because by the time I get to that point in 5 years, you're 3 years past it.

So, no, just because it is functional, that doesn't mean it's a good path for someone who wants to really be competitive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t think this is true, necessarily. It’s about ROI. BJJ guys who want to be successful in MMA don’t just pick up a few techniques from must Thai. They train the entire style. Wrestlers train all of BJJ. Etc.

Those guys are nuts. I believe They would meditate with a yogi in the snow x5 days a week if they thought it would help them gain a competitive edge.

If a professional MMAist believes training Aikido would benefit them, they will do it all the way.

I'd just toss in the one qualifier that this is true if the time tradeoff is positive. So, no matter how nice a given system might be to have in the pocket, if it takes too much time to get to a useful level, I doubt any serious competitor will choose to do that. Their time is better spent in other pursuits. This is one of the areas MMA and BJJ drives folks very nicely - toward efficiency of training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That said, I think what is far more likely is that they're just not very skilled yet and are still learning stuff.

This is realistic and possible. It would apply to both use Advanced and Beginner practitioners. If they never use there techniques to actually fight with then there's a lot of learning. I know I ate my fair share of punches, ate some kicks too.

If aikidoka were to apply their skills in a fight regularly throughout their learning of the style, they would probably look like they are cherry picking techniques.

I get your point here. If they were applying their skills in a fight regularly I think they would have a better understanding of the techniques. They would learn without a doubt which ones are for actual fighting and which ones are to train some other aspect. Like Jow Ga has stuff in the forms that is conditioning and not actually a fighting technique. The only difference is that I know which is which. But in the world of Aikido. It appears that there is confusion as to what is used for fighting and what isn't. In my opinion that's a big problem. That task will be up to the Aikido world to figure that out and have those debates.

It's like you stated. "It's just the normal learning process where people who are less skilled apply those skills in context until they become more skilled and eventually are experts." They will just need to get hit in the face a lot. If I had to do such a task. I would work my way up to MMA. I wouldn't use the MMA arena to try to test my theories and concepts. Get into some open sparring, and open competition. I think Style A vs Style A is a horrible way to learn one's martial arts applications. Aikido vs Aikido just isn't going to get it. Jow Ga vs Jow Ga just isn't going to get it. Generally speaking there's only a handful of people that fight in either one of these systems. So these systems need to be develop in the context of using it against systems that most people use.

I think many of the TMA tournaments should be Style A vs Style B vs Style C. Sort of like MMA but on a lower level. The intensity should be enough where people can make mistakes without causing too much damage. Light enough to take chances, but hard enough so that the participants don't want to get punch or kicked often.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Aikido vs Aikido just isn't going to get it. Jow Ga vs Jow Ga just isn't going to get it. Generally speaking there's only a handful of people that fight in either one of these systems. So these systems need to be develop in the context of using it against systems that most people use.

I think many of the TMA tournaments should be Style A vs Style B vs Style C. Sort of like MMA but on a lower level. The intensity should be enough where people can make mistakes without causing too much damage. Light enough to take chances, but hard enough so that the participants don't want to get punch or kicked often.

Speaking for Chinese tournaments, they never embraced Style A vs A from the old lei Tai days up thru the present Guoshu federations. They have always mixed styles. That's how we got the ones we still have.

As far as Aikido vs Jow Ga, no way dude. Plenty of Jow Ga people in San Shou for many years. Zero Aikidoka that I know of.

Jow Ga training may not be commonplace but it's a well proven fighting system. It already represents a style(s) that has competed with others for centuries. That goes for most Family styles that include san da, where they already spar and compete inside the same style. Then these people go to Guoshu and kick other styles buttocks.

This guy BJ (red gloves) is out of Richmond Virginia Jow Ga. Amazing fist sets, even better free fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, faith and a direct comparison to religion. Is that really where we're at? Well, I guess it's to be expected.

You asked me a question and I answered it honestly. I thought of all the things where I believe others without evidence. So in the context of your question. It doesn't matter if it's faith or religion or some guy's new girlfriend or wife telling him that she loves him.

If you didn't want me to include my example of faith and religion then you should have told me to give you an example of it, excluding religion.

When you say faith, I would replace that with trust. Whether your inclination is to be trusting or not, the goal is to not be a rube by being blindly trusting. When you trust people who are not trustworthy, you are naive and foolish.

1. I rarely believe people who I don't trust.
2. People who I trust, I'm often willing to trust them without evidence.
3. I tend to not hang around people who are not trust worthy. I still run into a few who get by my "spidey senses" but that's like 1 or 2 people every 10 years so it's tolerable.
4. I don't trust the same person in all topics. In general, issues that are personal, are by default things that people are less honest about. I can trust a doctor about medicine, but I may not be able to have that same level of trust about his politics or about his own marriage.
5. Everyone gets a trust box. There are some things I'm going to trust a person on and somethings that I won't.

People who are trust worthy usually fill up the boxes really fast until there's nothing I can trust them on. I do my best to stay away from those people. People like that I try to stay away from because they will only make my life miserable. Nothing good can come from people like that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This explains so much.

I'm glad your confusion about me is finally over. lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

If one person can't make something work ...it's the person

If nobody can...

The problem with "If nobody can...."
1. Who are you basing this on? Are you basing it only those who shop up in MMA or are you basing it all who train and use a system?

Joe Rogan thinks like your statement. And he gets proven wrong all the time when someone does what he thought no one could do.

Sort of like the early days of men trying to fly. No one could, until someone did.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The problem with "If nobody can...."
1. Who are you basing this on? Are you basing it only those who shop up in MMA or are you basing it all who train and use a system?

Joe Rogan thinks like your statement. And he gets proven wrong all the time when someone does what he thought no one could do.

Sort of like the early days of men trying to fly. No one could, until someone did.

Somebody who I can't remember (Cung Le? Somebody in FMA? Argh) once said something really funny about kung fu along the lines of "OK Chinese don't get to own fighting anymore, but if so, then nobody else does".

I'll never get the "West works, East doesn't until you prove it. New works, old doesn't work..." mentality. It's so backward, and easily disproven. It amazes me people still believe an art works or not based on its country of origin...

Joe Rogan's exposure to Asian fighting arts was so limited, no wonder he's often off base with his statements. He just doesn't know what he lectures people on. He even met a guy who works with mental patients and uses primarily Aikido. Made sense to me that the guy wouldn't use Jow Ga Fu Jow Gong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you can get to that functional level in 2 years, and I need 5 to get there, I'll never remain competitive with you. Because by the time I get to that point in 5 years, you're 3 years past it.

That depends on what you are learning in those 5 years. For example, Boxing may take a person 2 years to get to intermediate. It may take you 5 years to get to intermediate, but what else are you learning. Kicking, weapons, locks, knees, strikes that the boxer doesn't learn. So while it takes you longer, you may be walking away with more options of attack and defense. No matter how fast a boxer progresses, he will never learn how to defend a kick in modern boxing. Nor will he ever learn how to use a kick. So in that context. It took you longer but you came out better for it because now you have learned to integrate punching with kicking.

The boxer will still be a better puncher than you, but you will be a better kicker.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fantastic post!

When "progressive thinkers" as me about God, I usually apply negative logic. "Prove to me God does not exist. Firsthand proof of God's existences is old, but compared to most of the arguments against it, this evidence is almost brand new. The conversations usually end pretty quick.

This is bad logic. Negatives (like non-existence) are usually unprovable, by definition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That depends on what you are learning in those 5 years. For example, Boxing may take a person 2 years to get to intermediate. It may take you 5 years to get to intermediate, but what else are you learning. Kicking, weapons, locks, knees, strikes that the boxer doesn't learn. So while it takes you longer, you may be walking away with more options of attack and defense. No matter how fast a boxer progresses, he will never learn how to defend a kick in modern boxing. Nor will he ever learn how to use a kick. So in that context. It took you longer but you came out better for it because now you have learned to integrate punching with kicking.

The boxer will still be a better puncher than you, but you will be a better kicker.

Those aren't functionally the same level, though, for competion (rememer, we're talking about people preparing for the same competition).