Aikido in the MMA ring?

[drop bear]

I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?

Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy? If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point. I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.

Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be? Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines? Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?

But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type. If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.

There is an element that believes that overinflating the effectiveness of a training method is unethical. I agree with that mindset to a certain degree.

You can walk down the road of accepting all martial arts to far I think.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

Just for some context building off the discussion of layered defense (and like I've said I can't say whether Aikido has this or doesn't since i haven't trained it) but here's an example of just how many layers of defense one has, often when they are still a white belt. The first clip shows the 8 layers of guard which all manage distance and posture in various ways and you can move between them. The second clip is a multi-faceted arm-bar defense and escape.

You can know all this and still get caught. If Aikido does have similar defenses I'd be very interested to learn about them and see if they can be incorporated into my game.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

There is an element that believes that overinflating the effectiveness of a training method is unethical. I agree with that mindset to a certain degree.

You can walk down the road of accepting all martial arts to far I think.

Edit: Drop we can discuss this later, I don't want to detract from this conversation about Aikido. I don't think you're wrong, I just think there's a little nuance.

 

[Spinedoc]

Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.

Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

Will check these out Spinedoc.

Question: do you guys ever focus on grip fighting?

 

[Hanzou]

Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.

Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.

Beautiful.

Now when do we get to see that done to someone actually trying to take the Aikidoka to the ground, or trying to knock him out?

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

Here's an example of various Kaeshi Waza techniques being demonstrated by Nemoto Sensei. He is going slowly to demonstrate how to effect the reversal for the students in attendance, but basically it focuses on reversing a technique that someone else is trying to apply.

Here's another one showing iriminage. You'll note that the first several series, Nage simply executes iriminage, but then, uke reverses and throws nage. There are multiple reversals, and as you advance to higher levels you are expected to know these. I think at Nidan level you begin to be tested on them.

I definitely appreciate the fluidity of the technique, and certainly I'm not about to write it off without getting to train it or against it.
However do you not think that realistically the advancing attacks would look something like those in the first 30 seconds of this video? Not even talking about changing the rules or making it a street fight, but rather if we just had the Aikido practitioner on offense give it 100% to try and reach the defender.

Hanzou, you better not hate on me using 3 Keenan Cornelius videos.

 

[Spinedoc]

That's not the purpose of Aikido…. We increase resistance as time goes on, but you will never see full on attacks like what Hanzou is espousing….... What's more, is most of the Aikidoka, I know, would quit before practicing like that. It is something that they have absolutely zero interest in. That being said, both videos were demonstrations of techniques.

One of our other senior students and I will both practice FULL on, with lots of resistance, but our Sensei says when we practice it doesn't look much ike Aikido at all. More like a brawl with some Aikido techniques thrown in. Not to mention, we both have substantial previous martial arts experience, and most of the other students will nervously laugh when they watch us, and then ask when we work with them…"you aren't going to do that with me, are you?"

That wasn't the question. The question was about layers of defense, an Aikido has them.

Here's the thing that I have noted with Aikido. It works….BUT….only against a fully committed attack. Someone who simply crouches and tries to jab or grab at you without committing. An Aikidoka would simply walk away. The whole purpose is to never fight……unless you have no other choice and someone commits to an attack.

Most Aikidoka do not practice Aikido to fight….most of them never wish to..this is the part you keep missing.

FTR, I'm practicing BJJ too, but not to fight. I'll never compete and have no interest in that. I'm practicing mainly to increase my fitness and it is offered right before my Aikido class so the time works…..

YMMV….

 

[Paul_D]

Uh, Where did I say that what I'm doing is the best, or superior to what anyone else is doing?

I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly? Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

That's not the purpose of Aikido…. We increase resistance as time goes on, but you will never see full on attacks like what Hanzou is espousing….... What's more, is most of the Aikidoka, I know, would quit before practicing like that. It is something that they have absolutely zero interest in. That being said, both videos were demonstrations of techniques.

One of our other senior students and I will both practice FULL on, with lots of resistance, but our Sensei says when we practice it doesn't look much ike Aikido at all. More like a brawl with some Aikido techniques thrown in. Not to mention, we both have substantial previous martial arts experience, and most of the other students will nervously laugh when they watch us, and then ask when we work with them…"you aren't going to do that with me, are you?"

That wasn't the question. The question was about layers of defense, an Aikido has them.

Here's the thing that I have noted with Aikido. It works….BUT….only against a fully committed attack. Someone who simply crouches and tries to jab or grab at you without committing. An Aikidoka would simply walk away. The whole purpose is to never fight……unless you have no other choice and someone commits to an attack.

Most Aikidoka do not practice Aikido to fight….most of them never wish to..this is the part you keep missing.

FTR, I'm practicing BJJ too, but not to fight. I'll never compete and have no interest in that. I'm practicing mainly to increase my fitness and it is offered right before my Aikido class so the time works…..

YMMV….

Oh I completely understand that the majority of Aikido do not want to fight, and I'm on the side of that being completely legitimate and ok. I was just watching the videos you posted and actually saw some movements I thought may be applicable to BJJ so I was more inquiring if there was anything in the system to deal with that kind of pressure. I've trained at SBG where they do a lot of movement based drills which have nothing to do with actual combat scenarios, but they sort of act as a glue between your striking skills and takedowns. I'm just sort of off the cuff wondering if training these movements could have a similar effect.

Don't worry man, I get it. I didn't mean to make you feel like I was attacking the art, I'm very ignorant of what techniques you do and don't have, and my whole career I've been interested in finding things from all kinds of disciplines to add into my overall game.

Its all love on this side.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly? Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.

That is ridiculous as there are countless instances of things in BJJ and MMA which the consensus was "these are esoteric and a waste of time to train" that are now common place. That's also just ignoring the fact that not all martial arts are about being the best at fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm sorry, am I actually reading this correctly? Your entire existence on this site has been to preach to anyone who will listen that what you do is superior to everything, and that anyone that does anything other than BJJ or MMA is wasting their time as it doesn't work.

Hardly. What you do with your spare time is your business. I have never called any martial art useless, or a waste of time. If anything I question their methods and their results, but that is hardly saying that something doesn't work or that someone is wasting their time.

The OP in this thread was curious about being an Aikidoka within a MMA context. The resident Aikidoka refused to give her a straight answer, so others stepped in to help her out.

 

[Spinedoc]

No worries man. We do train with resistance, and it increases with time, but that being said, it is a problem in Aikido. Luminaries like Stanley Pranin have for years extolled that we have to move to a more "live" training environment. Apparently it was very much like that in O'Sensei's dojo, but he softened slightly after WWII, and his son softened substantially more.

The one other senior student and I that practice that way, feel the same. BUT, you won't probably find many videos of that. It's not as pretty.

Additionally, because of the Ukemi involved in Aikido…..resistance is a funny thing. It needs to be there, and you need to increase it…but it must be done slowly.

The two injuries I have seen in Aikido both resulted from a new or junior student applying to much resistance to early. One was a student who claimed he had practiced Aikido when he was younger, and I think had too much faith in his ability. He tried to resist during Ikkyo, and ended up planted on his shoulder and sustained an AC separation. Another was a new student who resisted at the wrong time during shihonage and ended up doing a full back fall…which he wasn't ready for and he sustained a concussion.

SO, live training and resistance is important…but only once ukemi has advanced to the point where you can take the fall.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

No worries man. We do train with resistance, and it increases with time, but that being said, it is a problem in Aikido. Luminaries like Stanley Pranin have for years extolled that we have to move to a more "live" training environment. Apparently it was very much like that in O'Sensei's dojo, but he softened slightly after WWII, and his son softened substantially more.

The one other senior student and I that practice that way, feel the same. BUT, you won't probably find many videos of that. It's not as pretty.

Additionally, because of the Ukemi involved in Aikido…..resistance is a funny thing. It needs to be there, and you need to increase it…but it must be done slowly.

The two injuries I have seen in Aikido both resulted from a new or junior student applying to much resistance to early. One was a student who claimed he had practiced Aikido when he was younger, and I think had too much faith in his ability. He tried to resist during Ikkyo, and ended up planted on his shoulder and sustained an AC separation. Another was a new student who resisted at the wrong time during shihonage and ended up doing a full back fall…which he wasn't ready for and he sustained a concussion.

SO, live training and resistance is important…but only once ukemi has advanced to the point where you can take the fall.

I do also imagine this sharpens your timing as well

 

[ballen0351]

Might have been different experience if you were a girl.

perhaps....being surrounded by a few hundred SWAT officers may have had his attitude I check too. But he was humble and polite

 

[ballen0351]

And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.

If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.

When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on.

Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.

So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.

and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing. You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym. Its a totally different animal. Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.

 

[ballen0351]

Different what? Branch of Aikido or martial art entirely?

it's just different. They can say they are Aikido and that's fine to me of you change the philosophy of the style away from the original then you changed the style. Its not "real" or not "real" it's just different

Let's stop pretending that Aikidoka or traditional martial artists in general are some "enlightened warriors" while more modern or sport martial artists are "violent meatheads" looking for fights. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have jackasses on both sides of the fence. I've met plenty of people who practice certain "spiritual" martial arts who are pretty abysmal people.

Never once said anything like that. I said the Founders philosophy was different then other styles so it attracts a different type of person (in general again every rule has exceptions) I've trained at different Aikido Dojos and been to larger seminars and they type of person is just different then what I've seen and met in Goju or BJJ or MMA gyms. Even at my Judo dojo there is an Aikido class at the same,time on the same mats they were just different. Not better or worse just different

Where?

lol go read 65% of the posts you make all over MT

 

[Hanzou]

and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing. You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym. Its a totally different animal. Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.

I would say that the cage is closer to real life than this;



I have yet to see that happen anywhere except in demos.

 

[ballen0351]

I would say that the cage is closer to real life than this;

and? They don't hold seminars in an MMA gym where the teacher demos techniques?

 

[drop bear]

and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing. You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym. Its a totally different animal. Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.

Their intent dosent really matter. We train to the point that the other guy is stopped.
.