Aikido in the MMA ring?

[ballen0351]

LoL! So are you saying that Shodokan Aikido isn't "real" Aikido?

im saying it's different. Its "real" since it exists and has "real" people doing it But it was founded by Tomiki not Ueshiba so it's different

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?

Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy? If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point. I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.

Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be? Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines? Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?

But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type. If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.

 

[Buka]

I box, I grapple, I kick, I clinch, I fight....BUT, if I were going to compete in MMA you know what I'd do? I'd go train in an MMA gym that specialized in MMA competition. If I went in having only trained in American Karate I'd get eaten alive. It's the same with any art. MMA is a specialized sport specific to it's rules and what's commonly used in MMA competition.

I'm the best Gin Rummy player I've ever met. I am also the most sought out poker player in my social circle because I lose every single time I play. One has nothing to do with the other when you are playing seriously or for money.

And, yes there are arts that, in my opinion, might be better for your base art on which to build a successful MMA career. But that would only be a base and would only be my opinion.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

@Hanzou, you said “If we are to believe that Aikido is a martial art that can be used in a fight, why couldn't it be useful for MMA purposes? MMA bouts are nothing more than sanctioned fights after all”, yes this is a point I had wondered.. I watch the videos and see debate on other places and you can correct me here.. there seem to be an underlying implication that from my envisaged defeat in a MMA bout, that it is just another nail in Aikido coffin and Aikido in its purpose as a defensive fighting art is almost entirely invalidated, does this make sense what I am saying, and is this the appropriate conclusion??

Yes I concede this for me at least that I would likely fare poorly in a ring against a trained mixed discipline opponent, then again I am not ever going in that ring so that is not a concern, the concern is can a similar situation ever exist in reality? I do not mean like a statistical possibility rather an actual likelihood? I mean I used my training only rarely in the absolute last resort where I have on more than plenty occasion reasoned, smarmed, charmed or cajoled my way through a threat or not been there for the perceived threat to happen.. like these are the realities for me, any way, fighting would not do in most situations I am in and but that is besides that point.. I mean I have never had to deal with any one proficient in MMA, or any other art in the course of my duties or responsibilities..

Like you know it is not yet proven at all to me –quite opposite- that I am deficient in matters of my own defence using my own wares, common sense, available tools, the help of others, and my Aikido as a failsafe, yet that very deficiency is the clear implication is it not of such an envisaged defeat in a MMA bout?? I am speaking through limited experience.. only having sparred ever against mixed discipline fighters for kicks and laughs and not for serious.. Do you follow what I am saying? I cannot match these two things up.. have I just been lucky not to have encountered the wrong person?? Thank you all so much Jxxx

So Jenna, I think that you should realize that in an MMA fight, the person who's trained MMA is always going to win (this even includes taking a championship Boxer and lining him up with a UFC Champion.) In your own personal life do you think you're going to run into that many trained MMA fighters who are going to get into an altercation with you, I would wager not, as they are rarer then you'd think and they generally don't have the desire to get into street fights.

In terms of your concerns that Aikido not being that great in terms of transferring over to MMA, that doesn't invalidate the advantages it gives you in the real world against a non trained opponent. I'm going to link the interview below but as Ryan Hall says, you can always design a fighter that can beat any other person in an altercation, that doesn't mean anything that's just theorycrafting and fantasy. I highly suggest you watch this, I think it'll help you out a bit. I admittedly no very little about Aikido, but I have to assume its far better than knowing nothing, not just for the techniques but do to your mindset and awareness in conflict situations.

 

[Hanzou]

im saying it's different. Its "real" since it exists and has "real" people doing it But it was founded by Tomiki not Ueshiba so it's different

But do you consider it a different form of Aikido, or a different martial art entirely?

My point is that just because Ueshiba had a view on Aikido, doesn't mean that that's the only way someone can express doing Aikido. Just like Kano had a very specific view on Judo, but all of his students definitely didn't follow that view, and the art diverged. That doesn't change the fact that all of those various forms of expression aren't still Judo.

My other point is that practitioners like Seagal, and competitive variations of Aikido like Shodokan disprove your earlier statements.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm so lost now, Steven Seagal is being used in an argument about an entire martial art?

If you had been paying attention, I used Seagal as a counter example of the type of person Aikido supposedly draws to it.

Hanzou, is this really worth all the energy? If you are happy with the martial arts your doing and have such certainty that they are the best or at least superior then why are you so concerned with continually trying to prove this point. I'm trying to see things from your side as well but I just don't get your beef with Aikido, or rather your need to try and convert people to see it your way.

Uh, Where did I say that what I'm doing is the best, or superior to what anyone else is doing?

Does it somehow personally offend you when others hold opinions that are incongruent with yours in regards to what this Martial Art is supposed to be?

Nope.

Is this somehow negatively affecting your life and ability to train your disciplines?

Nope.

Is there some renegade group of Aikido players rolling up to your dojo/gym on a regular basis and leaving a mess?

Nope. However, it would be cool if that happened at some point. It's been a long time since I got to experience a good old fashioned dojo storm, especially one where the stormers are wearing skirts.

But I'm not here to tell anyone what to do, what to think or what to type. If this is somehow an important crusade for you that you feel must be carried out, while I don't understand the need for it at all, I have no problem with you following your heart on this one.

Again, where are you getting the notion that this is some sort of crusade? I'm merely answering Jenna's question, and debating with a few posters.

Your membership to this forum just started yesterday. I recommend that you take a breath, relax and stop posting Ryan Hall vids. No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here.

 

[ballen0351]

But do you consider it a different form of Aikido, or a different martial art entirely?

I think it's contrary to Ushieba teaching. So it's different.

My point is that just because Ueshiba had a view on Aikido, doesn't mean that that's the only way someone can express doing Aikido. Just like Kano had a very specific view on Judo, but all of his students definitely didn't follow that view, and the art diverged. That doesn't change the fact that all of those various forms of expression aren't still Judo.

My other point is that practitioners like Seagal, and competitive variations of Aikido like Shodokan disprove your earlier statements.

it doesn't disprove anything. There are always exceptions to every rule it doesn't make the rule less true, Generally speaking go to an Aikido Dojo see they type of people it attracts they are going to be different then they type of people in a boxing gym. Not better or worse just different. And the mindset and teaching of Aikido as was passed down by the founder is different then most other martial arts.

 

[ballen0351]

No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here.

yes you are that's what you do every chance you get you attack other styles

 

[Hanzou]

I think it's contrary to Ushieba teaching. So it's different.

Different what? Branch of Aikido or martial art entirely?

it doesn't disprove anything. There are always exceptions to every rule it doesn't make the rule less true, Generally speaking go to an Aikido Dojo see they type of people it attracts they are going to be different then they type of people in a boxing gym. Not better or worse just different. And the mindset and teaching of Aikido as was passed down by the founder is different then most other martial arts.

Let's stop pretending that Aikidoka or traditional martial artists in general are some "enlightened warriors" while more modern or sport martial artists are "violent meatheads" looking for fights. Nothing could be further from the truth. You have jackasses on both sides of the fence. I've met plenty of people who practice certain "spiritual" martial arts who are pretty abysmal people.

yes you are that's what you do every chance you get you attack other styles

Where?

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

"No one is attacking Aikido (or any other martial art) here."

" It's been a long time since I got to experience a good old fashioned dojo storm, especially one where the stormers are wearing skirts."

Also this is clearly an extension of the locked post about Roy Dean and Aikido from the general forum.

With that being said, if I misinterpreted you and you aren't attacking Aikido then apologies, however that leaves me even more confused as to what the point of your posts in this thread and the other are. But look, I've got no real ill will towards you at all, you're more than entitled to whatever it is you believe and are trying to do here.

I'll also overlook the unnecessary swipe you took at me in that last paragraph. Today's my day off and I'm calm as can be, heart rates sitting at a cool 55 bpm right now and I'm drinking some nice coconut water. And thanks for the suggestion to relax, I think I shall do that, a bit burnt out from SBG circuits and gauntlet BJJ from yesterday. I may or may not post more Ryan Hall videos, who knows?!

Its a new year I'm feeling great, I'm glad to have found this forum, and if I am in fact rubbing anyone the wrong way just message me. I'm very secure mentally, and pride myself on having an open mind so I'm always willing to be "schooled" and come to a new understanding of things.

"I hope that in this year to come, you make mistakes. Because if you are making mistakes, then you are making new things, trying new things, learning, living, pushing yourself, changing yourself, changing your world. You're doing things you've never done before, and more importantly, you're doing something." - Neil Gaiman

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

Hopefully posting quotes is kosher.

 

[drop bear]

If you don't routinely practice blocking skills then it would be pretty near impossible. For those of us that do it's not that hard.

And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.

If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.

When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on.

Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.

So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.

 

[drop bear]

Steven wasn't that bad in real life I met him at a SWAT conference. But I don't disagree with most of,what you said. As for Shodokan Aikdio it's not the Founders Aikido. It is a system based off Aikido but still different.

Might have been different experience if you were a girl.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.

If you want to know if you can catch punches or do akido moves,land tkd kicks,fight from guard. Mma is still one of the best vehicles to try this out and still let you walk away afterwards.

When we were discussing standing arm restraints. This is where I test mine. This let's the other guy practice his bjj,or punching my head off or anything he wants to work on.

Competition becomes a different set of priorities again. Which is where Bas was going with his answer. The game changes at pace. Don't believe me? Then go try it out come back with your own results.

So the advantage of mma is looking at what is not the clutter of what should be.

I am still confused about the crux of this thread, but if it is that then yes your right. The only problem is most gyms I know of would not let someone with no prior contact sparring training get hit with kicks and 4 oz gloves, and if you do find a gym that lets you do this make sure you get a heck of a good training partner who both knows what there doing and has the accuracy and restraint needed to make sure you don't get hurt. They still need to be throwing the punches in a fight realistic manner however, but put 50% on them like Nick/Nate Diaz' pitter patter punches.

 

[drop bear]

Its also not Aikido you dont catch punches At least not like he was suggesting

No. But akido also don't seemed to have a layered defence either. And single tier concepts don't work well against trained guys.

So I throw a punch you block. Is layer 1.

I throw a punch you block,I use that block to set up a double leg,you you spraw,I cut a corner,you stuff my head. And so on is the level of complexity you need to achieve.

Normally here I would use a video of Jason scully who will show you fifty different ways to set up an arm bar. Which you need if the other guy has fourty nine ways of defending one.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

No. But akido also don't seemed to have a layered defence either. And single tier concepts don't work well against trained guys.

So I throw a punch you block. Is layer 1.

I throw a punch you block,I use that block to set up a double leg,you you spraw,I cut a corner,you stuff my head. And so on is the level of complexity you need to achieve.

Normally here I would use a video of Jason scully who will show you fifty different ways to set up an arm bar. Which you need if the other guy has fourty nine ways of defending one.

So these techniques don't exist in Aikido, or rather they do exist but are never trained in sequences as reactionary chains/transitions as in Wrestling, BJJ etc.?

 

[drop bear]

I am still confused about the crux of this thread, but if it is that then yes your right. The only problem is most gyms I know of would not let someone with no prior contact sparring training get hit with kicks and 4 oz gloves, and if you do find a gym that lets you do this make sure you get a heck of a good training partner who both knows what there doing and has the accuracy and restraint needed to make sure you don't get hurt. They still need to be throwing the punches in a fight realistic manner however, but put 50% on them like Nick/Nate Diaz' pitter patter punches.

You could pop in to our gym and do it. I have a mate in the sunny coast who spent a whole day of full contact sparring trying to see if karate worked. (Fully stanced up hands down the whole shebang)

 

[Spinedoc]

Aikido does have a layered defense….at least at higher levels, we train in Kaeshi Waza all the time. What happens when the first technique doesn't work or is reversed, and how can you reverse someone else's locks or throws. It may not be same as MMA, but there is a more complex, nuanced defense at work.

 

[drop bear]

So these techniques don't exist in Aikido, or rather they do exist but are never trained in sequences as reactionary chains/transitions as in Wrestling, BJJ etc.?

As far as I have seen yes. This changes the perception of what is high percentage.

 

[drop bear]

Aikido does have a layered defense….at least at higher levels, we train in Kaeshi Waza all the time. What happens when the first technique doesn't work or is reversed, and how can you reverse someone else's locks or throws. It may not be same as MMA, but there is a more complex, nuanced defense at work.

Do you have an example of that?

I will just go to the Jason scully demo to use an example of what I am on about.