Aikido hate

[JP3]

In a pefect world. But its not a perfect world. Its a fight.

Reviewing this stuff on here, I think I've figured out how Wang sees things and comments on them. He sees things through from " perspective. Am I right, Wang?

The techniques you offer u are, for your point of view, those witht he highest chance of working in the position you are discussing. Example abve. I get it now, I think.

Drop, I think you are insisting that the randomness/chaos of the Fight itself must be figured in, and I agree with that, from a tactical sense. You really never know what is going to happen. However, you can make certain decisions, which lead to tactics, which lead to predetermined actions/reactions to what the other guy is doing/not doing, which tend to favor the position you are in over the position/action the other guys is taking.

To not think about the chaos is a bad idea, but to think that there's no reason (you aren't doing this I don't think) about probabilities and training for them just because "Hey, it's a fight and fights go off in directions nobody thought about. They're chaotic." is also a bad way to look at it. You'd agree with that, right? Otherwise, why in the heck are well on here all the time talking about all this stuff?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think you're misunderstanding how most Aikidoka use their grips. They aren't going to be "grip fighting" when they are using their Aikido.

But your opponent may not be an Aikido guy.

 

[JP3]

I think you're misunderstanding how most Aikidoka use their grips. They aren't going to be "grip fighting" when they are using their Aikido.

Put me on board that ship, Captain.

I just thought of this, but generally it makes sense from my aikido-to-judo and back again, outside-in idea. If I've gotten so close as to establish gripping, I'm in judo range doing judo. If I'm outside and still able to play hand-games and handle what's up/going on, I'm doing aikido.

Generalization only. I can do some cool aikido things standing right next to someone, and have a judo grip and do a lot of judo throwing techniques without ever needing to violate one of the Tomiki aikido principles (in other words I don't pull them in, don't lift, and I throw them in the direction they want to go anyway). Grip fighting is for judo competition. In my opinion, grip fighting has no place in an SD situation as a general thing. I mean, someone can probably come up with a situation in which it'd be a decent idea, but from my own point of view, you grip fight to get a clear advantage over the other guy for the single purpose of being able to throw him before he throws you. Thing is, those kinds of exchanges can literally last for minutes while the two opponents are circling, trying to get contact, warding it off, etc. A strike would just wade in and commence to bash faces.

 

[JP3]

But your opponent may not be an Aikido guy.

I can almost guarantee you that my opponent would not be an aikido guy, actually.

C'mon, you guys... that's funny right there, I don't care what you say.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my opinion, grip fighting has no place in an SD situation as a general thing.

When the fists are flying, the "grip fight" opportunity is gone.

But when your opponent is on guard with his arms protecting his head - his arms are not moving, you can still use your "grip fight" skill to deal with his arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can almost guarantee you that my opponent would not be an aikido guy, actually.

C'mon, you guys... that's funny right there, I don't care what you say.

I just respond to gpseymour's concern, "I think you're misunderstanding how most Aikidoka use their grips. They aren't going to be 'grip fighting' when they are using their Aikido."

What if your opponent is a Judo guy? It's not what you may do to your opponent. It's what your opponent may do to you.

 

[JP3]

I just respond to gpseymour's concern, "I think you're misunderstanding how most Aikidoka use their grips. They aren't going to be 'grip fighting' when they are using their Aikido."

What if your opponent is a Judo guy? It's not what you may do to your opponent. It's what your opponent may do to you.

With my being a judo guy, and if my opponent is another judo guy, and we're not playing, we're in a fight for some weird Bizarro-universe situation, then I'm not going to play judo against him I dohn't want to go where he's good, I want to go where he's not good. I'm not going to close and get into a judo match turned fight, I'm going to stay outside if I can and if he closes, he's got to get through the woodchipper, to use Drop Bear's turn of phrase.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I find myself torn on this issue in my own class... I try to get the students to realize that practice doesn't maike perfect, it is Perfect Practice that makes perfect (as far as that goes). But, saying that, and implementing it are two different things.

While I will "demonstrate" a particular portion of a technique, whether it is hand action, strike body position/movement, etc., I "try" to inst that the student do "All the pieces of the technique," rather than just the one piece, as I'm trying to put the movement into their muscle memory. Even slow, halting movements start them down the road to coordinative mastery (a physical education concept, not a mystical thing).

I argue with myself about this, too. My tendency is not to have early students do much separation, except when they are having trouble executing a whole movement (for instance, someone who's confusing themselves in a technique, I'll have them do the foot work without the hands, perhaps). I find the isolation exercises more useful for more experienced students, to give them a chance to correct persistent issues as their techniques mature.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But your opponent may not be an Aikido guy.

Irrelevant to my comment. If there's "grip fighting" going on with a Judoka (or, really, with anyone), this type of Aikido is not the answer. That's not what this exercise is about.

 

[drop bear]

Reviewing this stuff on here, I think I've figured out how Wang sees things and comments on them. He sees things through from " perspective. Am I right, Wang?

The techniques you offer u are, for your point of view, those witht he highest chance of working in the position you are discussing. Example abve. I get it now, I think.

Drop, I think you are insisting that the randomness/chaos of the Fight itself must be figured in, and I agree with that, from a tactical sense. You really never know what is going to happen. However, you can make certain decisions, which lead to tactics, which lead to predetermined actions/reactions to what the other guy is doing/not doing, which tend to favor the position you are in over the position/action the other guys is taking.

To not think about the chaos is a bad idea, but to think that there's no reason (you aren't doing this I don't think) about probabilities and training for them just because "Hey, it's a fight and fights go off in directions nobody thought about. They're chaotic." is also a bad way to look at it. You'd agree with that, right? Otherwise, why in the heck are well on here all the time talking about all this stuff?

Simpler than that. I am suggesting both techniques are viable. One doesn't negate the other.

I mean the origional idea was that Martial artists wont wrist grab in a certain way so therefore it is wrong to train from that wrist grab.

 

[drop bear]

And there's not really all that much time to put your game plan into action, is there...

Sort of. There are distancing tricks.

There is a self defense convention that suggests you need to be nose to nose to a guy. And the argument is you wreck them with elbows or some such.

That you sit there in the pocket with your defensive fence stance against a guy who has veins popping out of his head waiting for him to throw a telegraphed overhand right which of course you then use to ninja to death.

And honestly it is a really silly module to work from.

You cant get away with it in MMA because you just can't pick out attacks from that distance. That isnt because of the style. That is because you are too close to pick out attacks from that distance.

Now this is reflected in self defence with the concept of the reactive gap. But for some reason people dont seem to make that connection.

 

[drop bear]

Put me on board that ship, Captain.

I just thought of this, but generally it makes sense from my aikido-to-judo and back again, outside-in idea. If I've gotten so close as to establish gripping, I'm in judo range doing judo. If I'm outside and still able to play hand-games and handle what's up/going on, I'm doing aikido.

Generalization only. I can do some cool aikido things standing right next to someone, and have a judo grip and do a lot of judo throwing techniques without ever needing to violate one of the Tomiki aikido principles (in other words I don't pull them in, don't lift, and I throw them in the direction they want to go anyway). Grip fighting is for judo competition. In my opinion, grip fighting has no place in an SD situation as a general thing. I mean, someone can probably come up with a situation in which it'd be a decent idea, but from my own point of view, you grip fight to get a clear advantage over the other guy for the single purpose of being able to throw him before he throws you. Thing is, those kinds of exchanges can literally last for minutes while the two opponents are circling, trying to get contact, warding it off, etc. A strike would just wade in and commence to bash faces.

You grip fight in MMA to shut down punching. It is also good for weapons. And standing arm locks. If you want to get all street.

Otherwise you are right in that being able to blend in your martial arts is an important skill. You really dont want Judo mode and Aikido mode.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sort of. There are distancing tricks.

There is a self defense convention that suggests you need to be nose to nose to a guy. And the argument is you wreck them with elbows or some such.

That you sit there in the pocket with your defensive fence stance against a guy who has veins popping out of his head waiting for him to throw a telegraphed overhand right which of course you then use to ninja to death.

And honestly it is a really silly module to work from.

You cant get away with it in MMA because you just can't pick out attacks from that distance. That isnt because of the style. That is because you are too close to pick out attacks from that distance.

Now this is reflected in self defence with the concept of the reactive gap. But for some reason people dont seem to make that connection.

I'm not familiar with any self-defense convention that suggests staying inside and waiting for the big punch. That's anathema to both extremes of self-defense approaches I've seen. One suggests you keep distance and wait for the mistake, while the other suggests you get in tight and finish them before they can continue.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You grip fight in MMA to shut down punching. It is also good for weapons. And standing arm locks. If you want to get all street.

Otherwise you are right in that being able to blend in your martial arts is an important skill. You really dont want Judo mode and Aikido mode.

Actually, I like having access to two different modes. The blending is just a bit of a blurring of the line between them. Aikido and Judo are good compliments to each other, IMO.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not familiar with any self-defense convention that suggests staying inside and waiting for the big punch. That's anathema to both extremes of self-defense approaches I've seen. One suggests you keep distance and wait for the mistake, while the other suggests you get in tight and finish them before they can continue.

Yeah. But you do this a lot.

Fine I will point that one out next time someone tries to suggest it.

 

[drop bear]

Actually, I like having access to two different modes. The blending is just a bit of a blurring of the line between them. Aikido and Judo are good compliments to each other, IMO.

What is your reasoning for that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. But you do this a lot.

Fine I will point that one out next time someone tries to suggest it.

I do what a lot? Mention that I'm not familiar with something you claim is universal?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is your reasoning for that?

For saying they compliment well? I like that they share some principles, while having some approaches that are quite opposite. There's some footage of one of the old masters of Judo working at an advanced age. What he does there shows some aiki application of Judo techniques (his partners appear to be allowing him to do so), and it'd be tough to argue that what he does in that footage isn't consistent with Aikido.

 

[drop bear]

For saying they compliment well? I like that they share some principles, while having some approaches that are quite opposite. There's some footage of one of the old masters of Judo working at an advanced age. What he does there shows some aiki application of Judo techniques (his partners appear to be allowing him to do so), and it'd be tough to argue that what he does in that footage isn't consistent with Aikido.

For not blending. Compliment is a very tricky issue. Judo and Muay thai compliment but they are opposing concepts.

 

[drop bear]

Using distancing to set up a counter punch on the streets. Which is more in line with what I would suggest to do.

My guess is the difference is this half assing issue again. You think you are using distancing well. But you are not really using it well.

Which was some of the many reasons Aikido guy was getting schooled in that MMA fight.

It is certainly why I ate the sucker punches I did.

And it is something that people dont realise untill they are put in that environment and then told they cant make excuses.