Aikido hate

[Tony Dismukes]

my thought is that in aiki the Tori does break the structure but in a more subtle way than judo. (keep in mind all of these are general statements that do not always apply).
from what i see in Judo there is at times a reversal of force/ energy that facilitates the throw. left to right or front to back. in aiki you dont see that much. you get a more gradual vector that over time/distance the uke loses his structure.

I could buy that (as a generalization rather than a hard and fast rule).

 

[drop bear]

Hey Tony, enraged, adrenalized attackers wishing great bodily harm or death often provide kuzushi during their attack. Rarely do they attack in a systemized manner or spar. Instead they attack with intention and adrenalize the attacks are usually larger. This is what person practicing Aikido would take advantage of. That or the opponent grabbing them and then applying a larger adrenalized strike. Either case allows an Aikido practitioner to do what they do very well!

Thats relying on a lot of hope. And I think it breaks down in 2 ways.

1. Is of course when they don't attack in a mindless rage.

2. When this attack is coming too fast and furiously.

A hockey fight should be a gift for an Aikidoer. But being in a fight like that is a meat grinder. Which changes the odds.

 

[drop bear]

I could buy that (as a generalization rather than a hard and fast rule).

The grab my wrist is like a very subtle clinch or grips basically.

 

[O'Malley]

Well, some aikidoka have written about kuzushi and a lot of the top guys who came from judo definitely knew about it. What's strange is that they didn't seem to emphasize this concept in training since I've only found one aikido book explicitly mentioning kuzushi (Principles of Aikido by Senta Yamada, who's from the Tomiki line).

I'd also like to point out the fact that the older styles (Iwama, Yoshinkan) work their fundamentals from static positions therefore I'm not sure whether their aikido depends on the energy given by uke.

As for the dojo I train in, we're kind of in between. We sometimes have techniques where the sensei says "ok this one won't work unless you do it in a dynamic situation and take advantage of uke, if he/she doesn't give you what you need you'll have to use *this* technique instead".

Other times, uke resists from a static position and we have to find "the path" using our sensitivity and positioning to push through the "loophole", in the angle where he cannot oppose resistance. That's one of the things you learn from suwariwaza kokyuho.

Here's the basic technique:

Here's an outstanding teacher demonstrating it (skip to 2:20 if you're in a hurry):

We also work on something that I believe is similar to judo kuzushi when we do back breakfalls: uke takes tori's wrist (gyakuhanmi katatedori) and tori extends uke's arm down then behind uke's feet to create an extension and break his balance.

my thought is that in aiki the Tori does break the structure but in a more subtle way than judo. (keep in mind all of these are general statements that do not always apply).
from what i see in Judo there is at times a reversal of force/ energy that facilitates the throw. left to right or front to back. in aiki you dont see that much. you get a more gradual vector that over time/distance the uke loses his structure.

That's an interesting view.


I've also read about a trend in some aikido circles that is geared more towards conceiving aiki as an internal power concept. Their theory is that the religious ramblings of the Founder were actually practical instructions about internal power training that one can decipher by knowing about his cultural and religious background. To them, aiki is the harmony of forces and tensions within the body that in practice makes you able to become immovable, redirect incoming forces and thus create kuzushi on contact with your opponent (just like when you strike at a big bouncing ball and your hand flies away from the impact). Some Daito ryu practicioners, the Founder, Koichi Tohei and Gozo Shioda did similar things.

The problem is that there seems to be no clear methodology for teaching internal skills in aikido and that most of it has been lost by most of the lines, even though there are groups that try to rebuilt it. I have not had hands on training with those people so I cannot tell whether their findings are valuable or not (not that my current level would allow me to have an informed opinion anyway).

One of the most confusing characteristics of aikido is that it varies completely from practicioner to practicioner even within the same line so you end up having a myriad of teachers working on their own aikido, their own concepts, even though in essence we're all doing the same thing. That truly amazes me, you have so many outstanding practicioners from which you can "steal" aikido to build your own. For example, you could look at the way a "fluffy aikido" Hombu teacher pushes into uke's center through his arms and use it to do more "martial" throws:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yep, that's why I said it sometimes will work in application against an unskilled attacker to rely totally on the attackers energy without any additional kuzushi the way Chris described. The problem is, you can't count on the attacker compromising his own structure that badly every time. You have to be willing to add some kuzushi or atemi to break the opponent's balance when necessary.

You and I agree on that point and Aikido has atemi, etc. to create off balancing. However, in really adrenalized violent situations a lot of the times people give you kuzushi. Even trained people in real violence where they are adrenalized will give kuzushi. The key being that they are adrenalized, angry, etc. Now, I would agree with you that you can't count on the attacker compromising his own structure and that you should have skills to create what you want. You and I are in total agreement there!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thats relying on a lot of hope. And I think it breaks down in 2 ways.

1. Is of course when they don't attack in a mindless rage.

2. When this attack is coming too fast and furiously.

A hockey fight should be a gift for an Aikidoer. But being in a fight like that is a meat grinder. Which changes the odds.

You of all people having worked the door at bars and security should understand that people when adrenalized give big openings?

 

[O'Malley]

Except that when O'Sensei and the others were challenged they managed to deal with advanced trained martial artists who were not adrenalized. So there must be something more.

Otherwise I agree that adrenalized attackers give more openings but that holds true whether you do aikido, BJJ or yoga and is thus not specific to Ueshiba's art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have concern about the following clip. When you grab on your opponent's wrist with your "tiger mouth - space between thumb and index finger" facing toward your opponent, your opponent can rotate his arm to against your thumb and put his arm "inside" and "on top" of your arm. This will put you in disadvantage.

In "grip fight", you want to get that "inside" and "on top" dominate position. You can verify this by using your right hand to grab on your own left wrist.

This is a wrong wrist grip.

This is a correct wrist grip. If you grab on your opponent's wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward yourself, when your opponent turns his arm to against your thumb, your arm will be "inside" and "on top" of his arm.

 

[O'Malley]

@Kung Fu Wang: it is an exercise to teach you about body structure and other subtle things so I don't think that using the grip you recommend would help (especially in a seated position where you have to grip both hands).

But kokyu ho can be practiced with other grips as you can see here:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

@Kung Fu Wang: it is an exercise to teach you about body structure and other subtle things so I don't think that using the grip you recommend would help (especially in a seated position where you have to grip both hands).

But kokyu ho can be practiced with other grips as you can see here:

I won't be able to watch your clip in US.

When you do something, you have to predict what your opponent will do to you. If what you have done can put you in disadvantage position, you should

1. not do it in the first place.
2. have back up plan to handle it.

IMO, 1 > 2

To prevent a problem from happening is always better than to let the problem to happen and then try to fix it afterward.

 

[O'Malley]

I understand but that is simply not the point of the exercise.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey Tony, enraged, adrenalized attackers wishing great bodily harm or death often provide kuzushi during their attack. Rarely do they attack in a systemized manner or spar. Instead they attack with intention and adrenalize the attacks are usually larger. This is what person practicing Aikido would take advantage of. That or the opponent grabbing them and then applying a larger adrenalized strike. Either case allows an Aikido practitioner to do what they do very well!

"You want me? You got me."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except that when O'Sensei and the others were challenged they managed to deal with advanced trained martial artists who were not adrenalized. So there must be something more.

Otherwise I agree that adrenalized attackers give more openings but that holds true whether you do aikido, BJJ or yoga and is thus not specific to Ueshiba's art.

I think this was them layering the Aikido principles on top of their other training. If an accomplished Judoka trains in Aikido, she'll be able to handle advanced practitioners with the Aikido concepts and techniques, using the Judo principles to generate openings. Early in his career, Shioda used some very serious amounts of body weight to activate some of his techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have concern about the following clip. When you grab on your opponent's wrist with your "tiger mouth - space between thumb and index finger" facing toward your opponent, your opponent can rotate his arm to against your thumb and put his arm "inside" and "on top" of your arm. This will put you in disadvantage.

In "grip fight", you want to get that "inside" and "on top" dominate position. You can verify this by using your right hand to grab on your own left wrist.

This is a wrong wrist grip.

This is a correct wrist grip. If you grab on your opponent's wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward yourself, when your opponent turns his arm to against your thumb, your arm will be "inside" and "on top" of his arm.

This is an exercise to develop feel and technique, not a system of grip fighting.

 

[drop bear]

You of all people having worked the door at bars and security should understand that people when adrenalized give big openings?

Why should I understand that?

I got told that a lot and used to believe it. But a few unexpected face punches later I reqlly started to have my doubts.

 

[drop bear]

I have concern about the following clip. When you grab on your opponent's wrist with your "tiger mouth - space between thumb and index finger" facing toward your opponent, your opponent can rotate his arm to against your thumb and put his arm "inside" and "on top" of your arm. This will put you in disadvantage.

In "grip fight", you want to get that "inside" and "on top" dominate position. You can verify this by using your right hand to grab on your own left wrist.

This is a wrong wrist grip.

This is a correct wrist grip. If you grab on your opponent's wrist with "tiger mouth" facing toward yourself, when your opponent turns his arm to against your thumb, your arm will be "inside" and "on top" of his arm.

There is a concept we use called tyrannosaurus arms.

The grip fighting looks like it is about maintaining that while extending his arms out. Overhand,underhand wont matter if you fall into that trap.

If you go overhand you can still be opened up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I understand but that is simply not the point of the exercise.

This is an exercise to develop feel and technique, not a system of grip fighting.

I don't understand here. If your opponent doesn't (or shoulder not) grab your arms like this, why do you even want to train this situation?

If you throw a right hook punch (or hay-maker) and your opponent uses left arm to block it, your right hand can slide down to his left wrist with "tiger mouth" facing to yourself. This way you can use your hook punch (or hay-maker) to "set up" your wrist grip. Is that how you will integrate your striking art with your wrestling art?

 

[JP3]

I fully expect - nay, anticipate - that outcome. My hope is that I can manage to make him sweat for it, just a bit, part of the time. Or maybe I can manage to keep standing, where, let's face it, I'm probably outclassed to a lesser degree.

Man... you are going to be spending some time on your back, on your face, on your side thrashing around trying to get away from Tony and he's going to be rolling you up, it's what they do!

...lol...

We all "want" to stay up, and ... sometimes.. we are able to. It's those other times that things go south. Er, North for Drop.

Do they have that saying in Australia, even? Things go south? I've a feeling that is something from the U.S. Civil War, now that I think on it. But, I've no time to google at present. Wife wanting to leave... just a few more posts to read...

 

[JP3]

Some thoughts ...

In Judo's Nage no Kata, there is no kuzushi applied to a stationary opponent. Uke provides the initial movement/energy for the throw. Tori just adds a little extra redirection at the moment of execution.

In uchikomi drills...

In application...

That's what I think of as an aiki moment within the Judo realm and at least a couple of Aikido practitioners up-thread seemed to agree with me. Personally I suspect the purpose of the Nage no Kata is to remind Judo practitioners to strive for those moments and I have had other Judo practitioners agree with me on that idea previously.

As far as the idea that in Aikido "there is no kuzushi, as the opponent has already provided the break to their own structure by attacking in the first place", that only works in demonstration with a cooperative uke or sometimes in application with a really incompetent attacker. A competent attacker may provide incoming energy, but they won't break their own structure. The receiver will have to do something to compromise that structure besides just capturing their energy. In many cases, this is where atemi comes in, or should. I suspect the reasoning behind the statement that "atemi is 90% of Aikido" is that without atemi the opponent's structure will not be sufficiently compromised for the Aikido practitioner to just capture their energy and use it. On this theory, atemi in Aikido is primarily for purposes of kuzushi.

Not saying I'm right in all this. I don't practice Aikido and I'm a mediocre Judoka at best. However I've gotten indications that at least some Aikidoin and Judoka agree with me. (Others definitely disagree with me. In conclusion, Aikido is a land of contrasts.)

Tony, this is why I wanted to know about Chris' "line," as there are several which apparently don't even discuss kuzushi as an integral concept of their "Aikido."

It doesn't mean that what they do is "wrong," it's just different. I don't talk about Wang's Front Door, Side Door, Back Door concept, but after reading his posts on the idea, I sure as heck use them all the time, for example.

Many aikidorks (for you Gerry) simply don't talk about kuzushi, but they "Do" it all the time, as in "When Master so and so began a technique, his irimi was so powerful it oftentimes knocked opponents off of their feet, merely by entering." Uh... gee... what's that? That's kuzushi, just not called kuzushi. It makes no difference if it's called a principle of entering, or off-balancing, or postural destruction, or plain old knockin' the other guy around... it's all the same onion.

 

[JP3]

my thought is that in aiki the Tori does break the structure but in a more subtle way than judo. (keep in mind all of these are general statements that do not always apply).
from what i see in Judo there is at times a reversal of force/ energy that facilitates the throw. left to right or front to back. in aiki you dont see that much. you get a more gradual vector that over time/distance the uke loses his structure.

I'd generally agree, but there are "moments" when a very slight application of opposing pressure vector can cause a catastrophic breakdown (i.e. a fall) in uke. I'd give you a technique name or to to postulate this but I don't think there's many other Tomiki aikido folks on here so that may not convey the idea.

Gyakugamae ate (Tomiki version of the classic off-balancing eye flash technique everyone does), or Ushiro ate (Tomiki's #5 technique out of the Randori-no-kata/Junana-han-no-kata (Rear Strike))

Here's an example dojo's (I don't know them but they've got the kata names/order righrt)

Atlantic Martial Arts - Basic 17 Techniques of Tomiki Aikido


In the ushiro, at the moment of 0-gravity at the top of uke's step, you "halt" his forward progress and he literally walks out from under himself. 0-effort, simple technique. Countering force is my point.