Aikido hate

[Brian R. VanCise]

Why should I understand that?

I got told that a lot and used to believe it. But a few unexpected face punches later I reqlly started to have my doubts.

People who are getting those unexpected face punches need to watch this video put out by Tgrace a law enforcement officer. The cues here are life savers!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't understand here. If your opponent doesn't (or shoulder not) grab your arms like this, why do you even want to train this situation?

If you throw a right hook punch (or hay-maker) and your opponent uses left arm to block it, your right hand can slide down to his left wrist with "tiger mouth" facing to yourself. This way you can use your hook punch (or hay-maker) to "set up" your wrist grip. Is that how you will integrate your striking art with your wrestling art?

It's just a sensitivity and manipulation exercise. It's divorced from normal body movement to handicap the practitioner into having to use certain principles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's just a sensitivity and manipulation exercise. It's divorced from normal body movement to handicap the practitioner into having to use certain principles.

- I said, "Any opponent with proper MA knowledge won't grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you".
- You said, "It's just ... exercise".

I believe we are missing each other here. For example,

- If you and I are training partner.
- If I refuse to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, You can't use me to train your exercise.
- If I allow myself to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, I have violate my own MA guideline.

Can you see my concern here?

Let me use another example here.

- You want me to move one leg across another leg. When i do that, you are going to sweep me down (you use me to train your foot sweep).
- Since I will never cross my legs like that, I can't be your training partner.
- You then say, "It's just an exercise."
- I then say, "Even if it's just an exercise, but it violates my MA principle "Never cross my legs when I'm in my opponent's kicking range".

Can you see my concern again here?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

- I said, "Any opponent with proper MA knowledge won't grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you".
- You said, "It's just ... exercise".

I believe we are missing each other here. For example,

- If you and I are training partner.
- If I refuse to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, You can't use me to train your exercise.
- If I allow myself to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, I have violate my own MA guideline.

Can you see my concern here?

Let me use another example here.

- You want me to move one leg across another leg. When i do that, you are going to sweep me down (you use me to train your foot sweep).
- Since I will never cross my legs like that, I can't be your training partner.
- You then say, "It's just an exercise."
- I then say, "Even if it's just an exercise, but it violates my MA principle "Never cross my legs when I'm in my opponent's kicking range".

Can you see my concern again here?

Yes. But not everyone has that absolute view. I will practice throws without footwork to force myself to work on other parts of the throw. That's just an exercise, and not something I would do in application.

 

[drop bear]

People who are getting those unexpected face punches need to watch this video put out by Tgrace a law enforcement officer. The cues here are life savers!

I don't think the issue is I can't recognise an angry person.

What i miss is the exact moment between anger and action.

Because real attacks come fast.

 

[drop bear]

- I said, "Any opponent with proper MA knowledge won't grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you".
- You said, "It's just ... exercise".

I believe we are missing each other here. For example,

- If you and I are training partner.
- If I refuse to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, You can't use me to train your exercise.
- If I allow myself to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, I have violate my own MA guideline.

Can you see my concern here?

Let me use another example here.

- You want me to move one leg across another leg. When i do that, you are going to sweep me down (you use me to train your foot sweep).
- Since I will never cross my legs like that, I can't be your training partner.
- You then say, "It's just an exercise."
- I then say, "Even if it's just an exercise, but it violates my MA principle "Never cross my legs when I'm in my opponent's kicking range".

Can you see my concern again here?

If you go to that video of a top level martial artist performing a foot sweep.

What wrist grab does he use?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you go to that video of a top level martial artist performing a foot sweep.

What wrist grab does he use?

I don't understand your question. In that clip, both persons are kneeing down on the ground. There is no foot sweep in that clip.

IMO, there is nothing wrong to train wrist grip. But I just don't see any good reason to train the wrong kind of wrist grip.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't understand your question. In that clip, both persons are knee down on the ground. There is no foot sweep.

I don't think he's talking about the Aikido clip. Maybe the video of Greg Nelson doing a foot sweep from the clinch?

 

[drop bear]

This video.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This video.

in that clip, the "clinch" has already been established. His right "under hook" has already placed successfully under his opponent's left shoulder. He is no longer fight on his opponent's "wrist gate". He has already reached to his opponent's "shoulder gate". The "grip fighting" game is over. The "wrestling" game has started. He can throw his opponent just with that "under hook". He doesn't need that wrist holding hand.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Because real attacks come fast.

Absolutely!

 

[drop bear]

in that clip, the "clinch" has already been established. His right "under hook" has already placed successfully under his opponent's left shoulder. The "grip fighting" game is over. The "wrestling" game has started. He can throw his opponent just with that "under hook". He doesn't need that wrist holding hand.

You kind of do if you don't want your face punched in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You kind of do if you don't want your face punched in.

If you just standing there, of course you have to deal with his right arm. If you use both hands to press down his left shoulder, his right punch won't have chance to punch out. When you press down his left shoulder, if you let your right knee to meet his face, that can be a knock out knee strike.

Here is an example. The knee strike is not shown in this clip.

 

[Steve]

I'm also very interested in Chris' aikido lineage.

 

[drop bear]

If you just standing there, of course you have to deal with his right arm. If you use both hands to press down his left shoulder, his right punch won't have chance to punch out. When you press down his left shoulder, if you let your right knee to meet his face, that can be a knock out knee strike.

Here is an example. The knee strike is not shown in this clip.

In a pefect world. But its not a perfect world. Its a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

in that clip, the "clinch" has already been established. His right "under hook" has already placed successfully under his opponent's left shoulder. He is no longer fight on his opponent's "wrist gate". He has already reached to his opponent's "shoulder gate". The "grip fighting" game is over. The "wrestling" game has started. He can throw his opponent just with that "under hook". He doesn't need that wrist holding hand.

I think you're misunderstanding how most Aikidoka use their grips. They aren't going to be "grip fighting" when they are using their Aikido.

 

[JP3]

- I said, "Any opponent with proper MA knowledge won't grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you".
- You said, "It's just ... exercise".

I believe we are missing each other here. For example,

- If you and I are training partner.
- If I refuse to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, You can't use me to train your exercise.
- If I allow myself to grab your wrist with tiger mouth facing to you, I have violate my own MA guideline.

Can you see my concern here?

Let me use another example here.

- You want me to move one leg across another leg. When i do that, you are going to sweep me down (you use me to train your foot sweep).
- Since I will never cross my legs like that, I can't be your training partner.
- You then say, "It's just an exercise."
- I then say, "Even if it's just an exercise, but it violates my MA principle "Never cross my legs when I'm in my opponent's kicking range".

Can you see my concern again here?

I do see your concern, Wang. The thing is, most opponents are not gifted with decades of experience like you are, so they do "dumb" things all the time.

I agree witht he premise that we want tot rain against the best, most prepared person, in order to get better ourselves. But, I think we need to reconcile that against the actual fact that most people (not all, just most) people who do that really don't have the temperament to engage in long-time MA training, or if they are, such long-time MA training actually and literally trans the "fighting" out of them.

Conundrum.

 

[JP3]

Yes. But not everyone has that absolute view. I will practice throws without footwork to force myself to work on other parts of the throw. That's just an exercise, and not something I would do in application.

I find myself torn on this issue in my own class... I try to get the students to realize that practice doesn't maike perfect, it is Perfect Practice that makes perfect (as far as that goes). But, saying that, and implementing it are two different things.

While I will "demonstrate" a particular portion of a technique, whether it is hand action, strike body position/movement, etc., I "try" to inst that the student do "All the pieces of the technique," rather than just the one piece, as I'm trying to put the movement into their muscle memory. Even slow, halting movements start them down the road to coordinative mastery (a physical education concept, not a mystical thing).

 

[JP3]

I don't think the issue is I can't recognise an angry person.

What i miss is the exact moment between anger and action.

Because real attacks come fast.

And there's not really all that much time to put your game plan into action, is there...

 

[JP3]

You kind of do if you don't want your face punched in.

Does it need to be wrist control, do you think? Or, will anything which covers the hand up suffice, as long as it's heavy enough to keep the head shots from coming up?