Aikido hate

[JP3]

Agreed on the "familiarize yourself ..." part. Not so much on the first sentence. Sparring should be done at all ranges where it is possible to make contact with an opponent, including toe-to-toe, chest-to-chest. If someone's sparring doesn't include that, it's a flaw in their approach to sparring, not with the idea of sparring itself.

Yes. Sometimes you find yourself In the Woodchipper, and it's a good thing to know the geography so you can find your way out, instead of down the chute and into the blades.

It is ALWAYS better to get your butt kicked by your friends and/or training partners, or even the guys/gals yu can't stand to be around at a tournament... than have it happen to you where you don't know anyone, are alone, and find out too late there may not be rules. At least if you've trained all of these things, if they happen to you from one with malevolent intent, you've done some of the required homework.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Agreed, when I say sparring I only mean sport sparring - six feet apart. Not everyone shares that same definition of course.

Well, sparring from six feet apart has its place - in sword fighting, for example. Not so much for unarmed purposes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, that's not the synonym of blending I was talking about... but I suppose it is one of them, in the Kitchen Aid Mixer variety of blending, i.e. mixing. Instead of blending as in harmonizing, aligning, joining, etc a movement thing. Which, I suppose in a sense, is exactly what a blender/mixer does.

Thai-boxing is simple, meaning that there are techniques to learn, then combinations to assemble. Once you do that, you spar/fight to test them, and then learn the other aspects of that particular type of duel. In/out, distancing, lines and angles, all that stuff came to me very easily and quickly as I'd been introduced to it from green belt in TKD when we were allowed to start to spar. What didn't make sense in TKD because of all of the rules (so people couldn't hurt one another) came crystalline when the other guy Was trying to hurt you. In a sporting way of course.

Punches are punches, kicks are kicks. They come from right and left, and/or straight down the middle. From a defensive point of view, it's not really much different if the attacker is a western style boxer, or a Chinese style one, the attacker still has 2 arms, 2 legs and a head with a body connecting it all.

You're using the definition of "blending" I'd use with my students, during class. I assumed the discussion was about how two arts can be mixed together. Different discussions, entirely, and probably confusing if we don't know which definition we're on at any given point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A thought for you, Gerry. Do you guys talk about the concept of mai ai (sometimes I've seen it spelled as miai ?)

Mai Ai is the "combative Interval" or the maximum outer distance from an opponent where they could actually affect you/do harm to you. It changes with body sizes, obviously, and with various length weapons. We talk about it as "If the opponent can take one step (not a full striding step, but the sliding in step of a striker, swordsman, sharpy-pointy-pokey guy) and do something harmful to you... that's Mai Ai. So, when you go "into" Mai Ai, it's hands-up and out of the Way" time. Therefore I'll offer you yet another way you can get intot hat intercept the strike thing, which Does require a certain amount of perception of aggressive behavior, I grant you. Read intent (usually very easy, sometimes not so much) and as you enter the field you are pre-emptively moving to the spot. It's A Thing. Play with it.

We do discuss the concept (which we spell "ma-ai", though I have no idea why the hyphen is in there). For us it's both the concept of that outer distance, as well as the concept of proper distancing for a given technique.

Your point is well taken. It's actually something I include in my "you got lucky" grouping. You might be entering/stepping off-line/changing positions at the same moment he decides to initiate an attack, and you just "get lucky" and end up in the right position for a given technique. You can't really plan to move in for that specific technique (in that situation), because he hasn't given you enough cues to know how he'll be moving. You know he's about to do something in the next couple of seconds, but you may not even be able to tell when he's going to start his movement. You put yourself in a position you like better than where you were, and he brings you an arm to do a technique with. Sort of a house-warming gift for the new location you've chosen. Neighborly kind of guy, this one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, what would you call a fight out in the street? (Obviously, "street" here is intended as a global term for "not inside a training facility, or sporting event.")

The disappearance of rules alters both strategy & tactics. I'm not eye-gouging a dude with whom I'm engaged in a training or competition situation, but on the aforementioned "street," it could be fair game if the only way out is to maim. Ugly thought that, by the way. So, you can't call both of them just "fights," as they are different things. or, are you feeling that I'm missing something?

I think maybe DB is saying street fights aren't a specific thing. They vary too much to be lumped into a single bucket. Or maybe I'm missing his point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, to me that's not grip-fighting. So, one of two things need to happen. Either I need to expand my definition or someone needs to feed me a new word. I'm stuck on this. For me, that's clinch-work.

That happens. I'm good with discussing it either way, as I've been known to use the term for either, and talk about clinch-work as you use it. I was mostly trying to use it in the form it came up in here, assuming I've understood that correctly.

 

[Paul_D]

Well, sparring from six feet apart has its place - in sword fighting, for example. Not so much for unarmed purposes.

I think Kendo had a lot of influence on Karate once it started being taught in Japanese Universities.

 

[JP3]

You're using the definition of "blending" I'd use with my students, during class. I assumed the discussion was about how two arts can be mixed together. Different discussions, entirely, and probably confusing if we don't know which definition we're on at any given point.

There are only so many different words available to describe so many different things. I've had a thought, so I'm goihng to left-turn this, specifically for you, Gerry, due to the mai ai thing.

And still, even using the same language, we get into problems with people using our same language. I suppose we can call what we Mericans (a omitted on purpose) use, as compared with the U.K., or the Austrailians.

We do discuss the concept (which we spell "ma-ai", though I have no idea why the hyphen is in there). For us it's both the concept of that outer distance, as well as the concept of proper distancing for a given technique.

Your point is well taken. It's actually something I include in my "you got lucky" grouping. You might be entering/stepping off-line/changing positions at the same moment he decides to initiate an attack, and you just "get lucky" and end up in the right position for a given technique. You can't really plan to move in for that specific technique (in that situation), because he hasn't given you enough cues to know how he'll be moving. You know he's about to do something in the next couple of seconds, but you may not even be able to tell when he's going to start his movement. You put yourself in a position you like better than where you were, and he brings you an arm to do a technique with. Sort of a house-warming gift for the new location you've chosen. Neighborly kind of guy, this one.

I like those neighborly kinds of bad guys, the kinds who rather freely offer up their limbs. Problem is, they want them right back and that ain't right.

Here's a thing we do for kata practice, which makes sense to me. Think a guy coming at you right side forward, striking at you with his right hand, his target your head/neck zone. It really matters very little "how" he's striking at the instant when he's trying to make contact, except for some potential circular/torque entry (haymaker or hook punch vs a straight), which is easy to learn to deal with. Uppercuts are worse for him, just like they are worse for you if he makes contact (the risk/reward thing).

So for kata practice, as long as you are aware of, and can deal with, the different ways that the strike can come in... all such strikes terminate in the same general area... which is about the size of a basketball. The human arm only works in a set, specific way, so the arm is actually in a much more limited area of space. Give that some thought. (I know, you need to be able to judge where a guy is aiming. That comes with time. It's been my experience that it's almost instinctive, the knowing "where" but the knowing "how" to deal with it is not.)

So, now I generally work with kata assuming two strike zones, because of the staggeringly high probability that someone is going to try to strike you in the head/neck vs the arm/shoulder... and likewise, the ribs/belly vs. the hips/leg. I'm talking about hands here, keep in mind. Kicks are a different paradigm.

As soon as you've identified these three things, you can pre-emptively move to where you need to go: 1) bad guy; 2) bad guy going to attack; and 3) Bad guy going to attack my head with his right hand. Boom, off line, out of his way and his swing either misses or it goes intot he zone where you predicted it would go.

Again. Way easier for me to type than for people to get, but do-able. The problems faced is the intentional avoidance of "real" attacks coming in... not even full-power/full-speed stuff, just a variation from the prototypical stylized aikido kata attacks. I'm usually talking to my people about that all the time they're in mid-kata. Sometimes to drive home the point that it works, I'll have uke change the attack to be a wiled swing. Sometimes toss a knife in there to see what happens when uke has a blade. Talk about shortening up motions... goodness.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think Kendo had a lot of influence on Karate once it started being taught in Japanese Universities.

Interesting idea. If correct, it would explain both the increased range and the notion of "one strike, one kill" that lead the way to point tournaments and eventually to tippy tippy tag from out of range. I wonder if there are any contemporary sources to confirm the notion?

 

[drop bear]

So, what would you call a fight out in the street? (Obviously, "street" here is intended as a global term for "not inside a training facility, or sporting event.")

The disappearance of rules alters both strategy & tactics. I'm not eye-gouging a dude with whom I'm engaged in a training or competition situation, but on the aforementioned "street," it could be fair game if the only way out is to maim. Ugly thought that, by the way. So, you can't call both of them just "fights," as they are different things. or, are you feeling that I'm missing something?

We come up with so many preconceived ideas about street fights that the reality is lost.

It is like me telling you what Americans are like.

They love guns. They eat too much and are deeply religious.

 

[drop bear]

I get aggravated when I see someone teaching a nice, smooth entering move that reaches a strike before it moves into the power zone, and telling students that they'll be able to read that strike and get to it that early. Oh, there's a chance you'll get in that early, but not on purpose. There won't be enough time to move your body that far once the strike starts. You only get there that early (usually) one of two ways: you either read the strike before it happens (like a pro baseball batter reading a pitcher's body movements - they're reading the pitcher before he releases, as well as the pitch, itself), or you came in for some other reason and ran into the wind-up of that spot. The latter is more likely, IMO. So, to me, many of these early-entry techniques/applications are best understood as either a way to take advantage of that coincidence or a way to recover from that screw-up (depending upon your point of view).

4 to 5 punches a second for a guy who is not even that fast. If your defence hasn't solved the problem in a quater of a second. You have a new problem.

 

[Paul_D]

Interesting idea. If correct, it would explain both the increased range and the notion of "one strike, one kill" that lead the way to point tournaments and eventually to tippy tippy tag from out of range. I wonder if there are any contemporary sources to confirm the notion?

There are plenty of articles online. I guess it depends how much credence you place in them as to whether or not they count as confirmation, but I haven't heard any alternative to explanation as to why the Japanese made the changes they did.

 

[JP3]

We come up with so many preconceived ideas about street fights that the reality is lost.

It is like me telling you what Americans are like.

They love guns. They eat too much and are deeply religious.

is there something inaccurate about what you said? Seems right to this Texan.
to back at you with a similar tongue-in-cheek thing, Aussies drink Fosters beer, have kangaroos for pets, toss scorpions out the door each morning with the rubbish, and generally carouse with the best of them. Oh, and all the girls are named Sheila.

 

[drop bear]

You're using the definition of "blending" I'd use with my students, during class. I assumed the discussion was about how two arts can be mixed together. Different discussions, entirely, and probably confusing if we don't know which definition we're on at any given point.

So for blending put simply. I dont forget my ability to box while grappling on the ground.

I also dont box then wrestle as to wrestle well you really need to punch people. So you I do both at once. Punch to get armlocks. Get armlocks to punch.

 

[JP3]

4 to 5 punches a second for a guy who is not even that fast. If your defence hasn't solved the problem in a quater of a second. You have a new problem.

It's a useful skillset to have, things that slo those guys down.

 

[drop bear]

is there something inaccurate about what you said? Seems right to this Texan.
to back at you with a similar tongue-in-cheek thing, Aussies drink Fosters beer, have kangaroos for pets, toss scorpions out the door each morning with the rubbish, and generally carouse with the best of them. Oh, and all the girls are named Sheila.

Exactly. you will exactly pick out one Australian probably mostly pick out lots of Australians. But you wouldn't risk your head on the fact that tne next Australian you meet fits that description.

 

[drop bear]

It's a useful skillset to have, things that slo those guys down.

Also part of the dynamic. And important.

But you look at an outer wrist lock throw it takes mabye half a second. So you have to deal with 2 punches somewhere in that movement. People think half a second is fast. But half a second is half assing.

Slow them down is an option.

 

[drop bear]

I think maybe DB is saying street fights aren't a specific thing. They vary too much to be lumped into a single bucket. Or maybe I'm missing his point.

And they are generally described either by people who don't street fight. Or by people who want to make it appear different to what it is.

Geoff Thompsons hyperbole for example.

 

[Paul_D]

And they are generally described either by people who don't street fight. Or by people who want to make it appear different to what it is.

Geoff Thompsons hyperbole for example.

In the same way that people often confuse street fights with SD, and don't understand the difference. Case in point the post you are referring to has nothing to do with street fighting, hence he never mentions fighting or uses the word fight.

 

[JP3]

In the same way that people often confuse street fights with SD, and don't understand the difference. Case in point the post you are referring to has nothing to do with street fighting, hence he never mentions fighting or uses the word fight.

Question about the Thompson post on pre-emptive action.

He got that attitude just working the door at clubs? I don't know the guy's history, is why I'm asking. Ive watched his fence videos, heard him speak in the videos. He's a good presenter, but I think he'd be arrested in the U.S. once word got around about his tactics.... control, hit first, hit hard, hit several times.

I'm not saying it's bad advice for a fight, it's not. It seems on the edge as far as the enforcement of law goes.