Aikido hate

[drop bear]

It is, you got it. My and Gerry's lines seem to differ from what you've seen in that we are setting up a situation where the guy is not "pointed at us." That's the goal, anyway. IMO operating in the line of fire is ... well... wrong. Doing what I'm teaching, it's wrong. Doing what I used to do in the Thai? Different, sometimes. Fine to be right there, as the point of what I was doing was literally getting there the fastest with the mostest.

Whew, I just cleaned that up prior to posting it. It "used to read:" Getting there the fastest with the moistest.

And that would be all kinds of wrong.

I think the space issue is still being half assed. It looks like you have closed it up a bit but are still not accounting for how fast someone can create an opening.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah. But then have given away position on that arm. A jab is dangerous. A straight arm isn't.

A stiff arm with fist near your face is also dangerous. It's like to use a stick to poke on your face. You can use your

- body to push your leading arm,
- leading arm to push your fist,

and make your fist to land on your opponent's face. It may not have knock down power, but you follow up back arm "cross" do have knock down power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You could mabye hit a duck under from there like on the vid.

A good example of what I mean by space on this vid as well.

From what I have seen so much of Aikido is operating in that getting killed by strikes range.

Variations of the duck under are among my go-to tools. I don't really like to stay inside, so unless I get quick dominance, I'll be looking for an opportunity to slip out like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this hosed state is where Drop is perceiving where all of our stuff ends up.

I think so, too. Because that's what it looks like when you stop it to demonstrate a point in time. It's nearly impossible to demonstrate something while someone's structure is broken. At best, it's really uncomfortable for them, so we tend to demonstrate with them in a similar position, but letting them keep the structure. We also tend to stop time a lot in demonstrations, so the effect of momentum is lost when you see someone teaching a point.

DB, perhaps a bit of description of how my movement usually plays out will help. You see, if I describe what a single defense looks like, it's way too predictable for reality. It's just a scenario we use to train pattern recognition and feel, among other things. It's pretty common when I respond to a decent attack (as opposed to a crappy one), that my first response doesn't lead me right to a technique. I might not break his structure enough for my liking, or I might find I'm running out of his momentum before I'm in position for the technique I'm heading to, or I might be too late in responding to the strike and have to resort to a jamming block. In any of those cases, I might start toward a technique, then change "directions" (not necessarily literally, though that's an option) to get better control before a finish. Sometimes that "changing direction" means I opt for a big elbow strike along the way, or I move a lot closer to use my body to bump him off his center, or I feel his arm start to retract so I literally change directions and use that new input. All of those changes (and a host of others) are ways I stay out of the situation where I'd be hosed. Sometimes, I'm just going to go with my striking game, because I'm not feeling enough movement to get to the grappling I want.

If I didn't do that, I'd be like a boxer swinging for the KO regardless of what the other guy's doing. I might get lucky, but I'd be more likely to end up staring at a blurry ceiling.

 

[JP3]

I am not expecting anybody to answer for anyone else. And I accept what I may see consistently may not be the be all and end all.

Dominating striking is in an environment where generally both people can strike. But one guy is bashing the other guy.

At which point the chess game works like one guy will be trying to move to where hitting is easier. And the other guy is moving to where hitting is harder.

At wrist grab range. Hitting is really easy.

Thanks for clearing that up. For me, here we go. Right, if I stand there and am playing wristy things with a guy who is actively trying to tag me, I'm toast.

In your domination example, both guys are striking, seems to me. Might be off on that. Maybe one guy's just really good at it, and the other guy is trying to shut him down. That'd work too.

Let me ask you another question, boxer/Thai-boxer/other striker is there waiting with his quick stuff to set up his bombs. What if he gets rushed, compromising his distance, jamming him up and making it very difficult/awkward to get his shots off? Would that be domination of striking? This is what we see when a wrestler/BJJ player gets a good look and nails a double leg, or a clinch against the cage, like that. If so, then there's more than one way to dominate the striker. I'll grant you, it's easier said than done with some of these lightning-quick dudes.

The above being said, another way to ... block the striker's ability to get his typical (punching) shots off is to be beside him, instead of in front of him (being behind him goes without saying, so I said it anyway). Reviewing and thinking about your posts in my Close Them Off vs. Open Them Up thread makes me believe that you've had experience where guy's moving in, you get a block which lets you get beside him and you can take that advantage, even if small and short-lived, for a bit. While you are over there (shikaku) he can't strike you effectively (with his hands. Side kicks still work fine, as long as there is "room" to chamber them up. But if you are close enough, that's shut down, too. It is definitely a grappler's position, more than a striker's, but I would offer you Sugar Ray Leanord and Oscar de la Hoya as guys who regular were... somehow... over there and just peppering the other dude with shots.

Out of our (meaning my Tomiki aikido) basic techniques, there is a kata which is called randori-no-kata, also called the junana-han no-kata. The latter term is better imo as it literally means kata of 17 techniques. Out of the 17... 11 of them go to that position. It's a pain to deal with if you're trying to hit a guy, and he's just hanging out, singing songs with his arms draped over your far shoulder and near side arm. I mean, really annoying. But, it's a nifty place to be there and Be the annoying guy.

 

[JP3]

When I extend my arm, if my fist is just right in front of your face (not touching your face), your fist will not be able to hit on my face (if we both have the same arm length).

Since your opponent puts his arm right in your striking path, if your fist want to meet his face, your fist has to deal with his arm first.

If I wasn't "boxing," and the rules allowed me to, or there were no rules, a guy could just hyperextend the elbow with a minimum of effort and hardly anything moving but his arms. And... if the guy holding the arm was That focused on keeping his hand right in front... he'd likely get caught and get a doinked elbow. Ouch. No more strategy, as the arm wouldn' straighten any more, and then he's a one-handed boxer for a while. At least that day for certain.

 

[JP3]

I had a thought.

With these sort of conversations. And ones where people think I am saying MMA is the only way. Or that i don't understand Aikido.

Do you guys think that these factors somehow change from system to system?

Where i can't create space in the clinch in MMA due to the risk of getting pulverised. You can in Aikido?

That there is just a stylistic difference here?

Because that is a fairly rare circumstance.

Nope, all same-same.

Thing that might be not working is body alignment in a "clinch," whether western boxing or Thai. Keep in mind, I consider being able to snatch a moving wrist out the air akin to Mr. Miyagi's catching a fly with chopsticks. (That man can do anything."

Trying to work on a wristlock while in a clinch is sort of like working on one on the ground during rolling/naewaza. They show up, but they look different. Still work though. Sometimes even better, since because both of you are on the ground, the option of just"leaving" is out the door, most times.

I think you're mistaking what I'm saying as an "always" thing, Drop. Obviously, it's not, nor can it be something that "always" works. Just like you're not always going to land the jab to set up the uppercut, or get the stutter-step off of the intended sweep that sets up the massive Harai-goshi that wins the match, or evade a half-guard right into a baseball choke. Can these things happen? Sure. Do they happen often? Depends on skill level, but with two skilled guys going at it, typically not.

If a guy is coming at me with mayhem in mind, I'm going to be backing up, if I can, hands up to try to de-escalate. Well, maybe that is the start of the wrong kind of engagement for describing what I'm trying to get at here.

OK, MMA gym. In the ring, got the prototypical bomb-thrower opposite. First of all, I hope I can transform myself immediately back 20 years into that guy, who did that all the time, just for cardio/wind purposes. Fighting like that is hard work. Anyway, hands up, that Muay Thai guard hand position I like, which is higher and more forward than some guys like, sort of leaving my abdomen exposed (but remember, I'm 28 and you could run into my gut back then with a Chevy S-10 truck and I'd have been OK I think. Bomb thrower is coming in, circling, stepping straight in, whatever. Engagement starts.

Shots come in, deflected, evaded, some land sure. For me personally, if he's striking at me, I'm doing some bombing of my own to his inner thigh, whichever one is leading. I can hit it if he can hit me.

Here's a problem: Are we wearing gloves? Because if we're wearing anything over a 4-oz fingerless, I won't have the ability to really grab anything effectively enough, for me, to control it.

Let's say we're in some cool (or maybe not so cool) gladiator/mma fight sequence in a B-movie, no gloves. One guy drives the other guy up against the ropes/cage and starts trying to work the body, and the guy against the cage clinches, a hand around the neck/head, the other down around the arm. Not great, as the other arm is deliving damage to the other side gut/ribs.

But, and you should try this, life the outside leg, keeping the other guy's weight on the one closest inside to keep the rising knee from rising where you don't want it to go, and relax a bit of the pressure on the arm. I promise you it pops up and back so the dude can opunch with it as well most times. But, thing is, it's hanging in space, in a controlled place, and Not Moving. You predict the time and location of this moment, and you CAN just grab the thing. And, once you got it, you can, possibly, do all sort of things with it.

Easy? No. Possible, yes. Figured it out doing it ont he ground, in a north-north top-down configuration in BJJ class, got it to work a couple times, thought about it, then tried it standing, still works though the window is a lot smaller.

Now, all of the above is for someone who can withstand bombs, and deliver some, setting them up. It is not your average aikido person, who... in my personal experience, trains a couple hours a week, perhaps as many as six, might (maye) do some cardio at the gym, is very possibly a vegan and... I could go on but you get the picture. It probably will Not work for them. Almost certaihnly won't.

I can guarantee that it wouldn't work for me against GSP, either, at any point in my history. You can insert your favorite or most infamous MMA name for GSP there too.

 

[JP3]

Oh, Drop I forgot to mention. According to most, and who am I to argue with them, you can't do aikido close to another person, so you can't do it in a clinch, by definition.

Aikido at its core is a movement art, we move to cause things to happen. If you can stop us from moving, we lose. That simple. So, for most aikido people the clinch means game over. So, the lesson here is... you probably need something else, other than aikido, if you get caught and stopped, or held, or grabbed, or elsewise put in a position where you can't move where you want.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had a thought.

With these sort of conversations. And ones where people think I am saying MMA is the only way. Or that i don't understand Aikido.

Do you guys think that these factors somehow change from system to system?

Where i can't create space in the clinch in MMA due to the risk of getting pulverised. You can in Aikido?

That there is just a stylistic difference here?

Because that is a fairly rare circumstance.

The difference is one I've pointed out before. It's not stylistic, it's about context. If I stepped into an MMA competition, I wouldn't be able to afford the space. Against the overwhelming majority of people (and, thus, the overwhelming majority of potential attackers), I can play a different game. Even against the overwhelming majority of martial artists, I can afford more space than I could in MMA, because Muay Thai has such a presence in that context, and it's styles like MT that make use of that space in the clinch. Working against someone without that knowledge, not only can I afford to create space in the clinch, it's actually a useful tool.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, Drop I forgot to mention. According to most, and who am I to argue with them, you can't do aikido close to another person, so you can't do it in a clinch, by definition.

Aikido at its core is a movement art, we move to cause things to happen. If you can stop us from moving, we lose. That simple. So, for most aikido people the clinch means game over. So, the lesson here is... you probably need something else, other than aikido, if you get caught and stopped, or held, or grabbed, or elsewise put in a position where you can't move where you want.

I'll argue with them. You can't do most of the techniques seen in Aikido that close, in an Aikido fashion. However, I think a variation on seoi nage, or maybe a hip throw, can definitely be done in Aikido fashion from that close.

 

[JP3]

I think the space issue is still being half assed. It looks like you have closed it up a bit but are still not accounting for how fast someone can create an opening.

I missed this. I hate half-assing things.

If I get behind the guy's arm, and put pressure on him, literally or figuratively by movement or actual physical pressure if he's pushing back or can't go back, he can't create the space he's after to launch more shots. Arm drags work for this in space, just leaning on them works against a wall, rope or cage. Nothing is "over" of course, but it is one way to shut the barrage down... Thus, clinching in boxing, cage techniques in MMA, etc. Slow them dudes down.

 

[JP3]

I'll argue with them. You can't do most of the techniques seen in Aikido that close, in an Aikido fashion. However, I think a variation on seoi nage, or maybe a hip throw, can definitely be done in Aikido fashion from that close.

So, you use two judo throws to say you can do aikido from the clinch?

I'll agree, there are a lot of judo things which can be done from a clinch or a cage hold. But... nomenclature indicates they are judo, not aikido.

Note... I wrote Nomenclature, not philosophy.

In a clinch, where is the "energy" being directed, and to where would you "re-direct" it to take advantage? It's all going... sort of "in" wouldn't you say? So, you need to wait until the other person releases the clinch to do something, or you, yourself, break the clinch to do something, either of which might cause movement by release of potential energy, or maybe just a real movement trying to escape.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, you use two judo throws to say you can do aikido from the clinch?

I'll agree, there are a lot of judo things which can be done from a clinch or a cage hold. But... nomenclature indicates they are judo, not aikido.

Note... I wrote Nomenclature, not philosophy.

In a clinch, where is the "energy" being directed, and to where would you "re-direct" it to take advantage? It's all going... sort of "in" wouldn't you say? So, you need to wait until the other person releases the clinch to do something, or you, yourself, break the clinch to do something, either of which might cause movement by release of potential energy, or maybe just a real movement trying to escape.

I'm starting from the premise that Aikido is not the techniques, but the principles and approach. If that's the case, then we have to look at throws that could fit within those principles and approach. I think those throws do. So, the issue (in my mind, anyway) for consideration is that most Aikido is taught with throws at a distance, rather than in close. If appropriate close-in throws are used within those principles, it's still Aikido - again, to me. Mind you, I'm not very traditionalist about these things. If something fits within the principles of NGA, it's NGA to me, whether it's in the Classical curriculum or not.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for clearing that up. For me, here we go. Right, if I stand there and am playing wristy things with a guy who is actively trying to tag me, I'm toast.

In your domination example, both guys are striking, seems to me. Might be off on that. Maybe one guy's just really good at it, and the other guy is trying to shut him down. That'd work too.

Let me ask you another question, boxer/Thai-boxer/other striker is there waiting with his quick stuff to set up his bombs. What if he gets rushed, compromising his distance, jamming him up and making it very difficult/awkward to get his shots off? Would that be domination of striking? This is what we see when a wrestler/BJJ player gets a good look and nails a double leg, or a clinch against the cage, like that. If so, then there's more than one way to dominate the striker. I'll grant you, it's easier said than done with some of these lightning-quick dudes.

The above being said, another way to ... block the striker's ability to get his typical (punching) shots off is to be beside him, instead of in front of him (being behind him goes without saying, so I said it anyway). Reviewing and thinking about your posts in my Close Them Off vs. Open Them Up thread makes me believe that you've had experience where guy's moving in, you get a block which lets you get beside him and you can take that advantage, even if small and short-lived, for a bit. While you are over there (shikaku) he can't strike you effectively (with his hands. Side kicks still work fine, as long as there is "room" to chamber them up. But if you are close enough, that's shut down, too. It is definitely a grappler's position, more than a striker's, but I would offer you Sugar Ray Leanord and Oscar de la Hoya as guys who regular were... somehow... over there and just peppering the other dude with shots.

Out of our (meaning my Tomiki aikido) basic techniques, there is a kata which is called randori-no-kata, also called the junana-han no-kata. The latter term is better imo as it literally means kata of 17 techniques. Out of the 17... 11 of them go to that position. It's a pain to deal with if you're trying to hit a guy, and he's just hanging out, singing songs with his arms draped over your far shoulder and near side arm. I mean, really annoying. But, it's a nifty place to be there and Be the annoying guy.

Rushing a guy is and it isn't and is a trap some times.

So you rush in anda are firing punches when you suddenly get countered.

And this is because you were punching into his guard or his defensive movement was good. But because you have worked into a position where your punches are most effective. So are his.

You rush a guy and clinch. You basically create a 50/50 now you can still strike. And from that distance it becomes very hard to tell where the shots are coming from.

Good for you. But also good for him. And either you are the dominant striker or have shut down his striking or you have just jumped into a woodchipper.

Rushing a guy and shooting a double is different. You don't go through his punches and you create no space. Which is why it is a mechanic that gets used a lot.

 

[drop bear]

So, you use two judo throws to say you can do aikido from the clinch?

I'll agree, there are a lot of judo things which can be done from a clinch or a cage hold. But... nomenclature indicates they are judo, not aikido.

Note... I wrote Nomenclature, not philosophy.

In a clinch, where is the "energy" being directed, and to where would you "re-direct" it to take advantage? It's all going... sort of "in" wouldn't you say? So, you need to wait until the other person releases the clinch to do something, or you, yourself, break the clinch to do something, either of which might cause movement by release of potential energy, or maybe just a real movement trying to escape.

No.

my clinch work is as you described. Good clinch work is very much pressure and aiki.

 

[JP3]

I'm starting from the premise that Aikido is not the techniques, but the principles and approach. If that's the case, then we have to look at throws that could fit within those principles and approach. I think those throws do. So, the issue (in my mind, anyway) for consideration is that most Aikido is taught with throws at a distance, rather than in close. If appropriate close-in throws are used within those principles, it's still Aikido - again, to me. Mind you, I'm not very traditionalist about these things. If something fits within the principles of NGA, it's NGA to me, whether it's in the Classical curriculum or not.

Who am I to challenge that, since I'm not one either. I'm much more practical physicist than traditionalist.

In the way I understand aikido, as I mentioned in the other thread, aikido people don't do two things that judo people (and other folks as well) do -- Lift & Pull. One of our favorite saying is this trite little thing, "Aikido People are Pushy."

I'll give you, it's possible to execute ippon seoinage with neither lift nor pull -- especially if you catch a guy in the act of punching. All you need do is blend, drop a smidge and turn. Blop, thrown puncher. You've got to catch him actually "punching" though. Same-same with hip throw.

The problem my mind's eye is having is with... maybe it's not so much the clinch itself, as that "can" happen in a free-standing state out against nothing at all, in the middle of the ring if you want a visual. It's the up against the cage thing. I can't see either one working in an aikido-way off the cage. Judo? Absolutely. Guy holding the pressure against the cage suddenly releases the pressure, and uses the potential, which will pop the guy off the cage, to enter and throw.

Drop... I'm still in thought about your comment about the clinch having aiki in it. I'm reviewing mental videotapes, using a different perspective. I'll get back to you on that.

 

[JP3]

After writing all these posts, and generally liking doing so as a thought exercise, I am led to write something else.

To be perfectly honest, aikido people, if we're going to stay aikido people, should not want to try to expirement with this whole MMA vs. Aikido thing. It's cross/counter to what we're trying to instill.

That being said, I DO think it's a good idea to have these other skill sets in your tool box.

I'm just struggling to reconcile the two positions.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, Drop I forgot to mention. According to most, and who am I to argue with them, you can't do aikido close to another person, so you can't do it in a clinch, by definition.

Aikido at its core is a movement art, we move to cause things to happen. If you can stop us from moving, we lose. That simple. So, for most aikido people the clinch means game over. So, the lesson here is... you probably need something else, other than aikido, if you get caught and stopped, or held, or grabbed, or elsewise put in a position where you can't move where you want.

 

[drop bear]

Who am I to challenge that, since I'm not one either. I'm much more practical physicist than traditionalist.

In the way I understand aikido, as I mentioned in the other thread, aikido people don't do two things that judo people (and other folks as well) do -- Lift & Pull. One of our favorite saying is this trite little thing, "Aikido People are Pushy."

I'll give you, it's possible to execute ippon seoinage with neither lift nor pull -- especially if you catch a guy in the act of punching. All you need do is blend, drop a smidge and turn. Blop, thrown puncher. You've got to catch him actually "punching" though. Same-same with hip throw.

The problem my mind's eye is having is with... maybe it's not so much the clinch itself, as that "can" happen in a free-standing state out against nothing at all, in the middle of the ring if you want a visual. It's the up against the cage thing. I can't see either one working in an aikido-way off the cage. Judo? Absolutely. Guy holding the pressure against the cage suddenly releases the pressure, and uses the potential, which will pop the guy off the cage, to enter and throw.

Drop... I'm still in thought about your comment about the clinch having aiki in it. I'm reviewing mental videotapes, using a different perspective. I'll get back to you on that.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Greg Nelson has the best clinch material I've seen from anybody.