Aikido hate

[Gerry Seymour]

The perfect defense is to

- put your fists as close to your opponent's face as possible.
- not giving him enough space to generate his fast and powerful punch.
- interrupt his attack in the initial stage.
- separate his arm away from his head and body.
- ...

The question is "how to achieve that?"

That last one needs a sword, I think. And if you get that one, the others seem unnecessary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I Am trying to think how I would make that work. Maby an answer the phone block straight after?

I'm not sure I understood the last half of that, DB, so if my reply makes no sense, un-confuse me.

So, with that position in the video, imagine the guy gave a jab right and followed immediately with a hard left while you were fading off the first one. He reaches a bit (not much required), and the right isn't ready to fire again yet. Here, you have a bit of space to use a 2-hand response like this. He's showing it without footwork, so it looks worse than it probably would with some movement. It's also way out of context, so I can't tell his awareness of the other arm. If I come into the arm with both hands that way (facing the arm, from the inside), I messed up and am attacking that arm and shoulder/neck HARD to try to reduce impact from the hand I can't defend against. When we use a 2-hand response, it comes off defending both sides: one hand blocking/handling the primary attack, while the other "occupies space" to be available to defend the second if it shows up. I've seen it taught to beginners with both hands on the one arm like that, and corrected later as they get the movement down. It's usually done to make sure both hands stay up (a problem for beginners), but I prefer to teach the separate jobs from the start.

EDIT: I just understood the last part, and he's going to need that (I call it an "arm helmet" block).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That last one needs a sword, I think. And if you get that one, the others seem unnecessary.

If you can separate your opponent's arms away from his head and body, he won't be able to generate power and speed with his punch any more.

IMO, the best defense is not to let your opponent to punch you. It's not how you may block his punches.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I understood the last half of that, DB, so if my reply makes no sense, un-confuse me.

So, with that position in the video, imagine the guy gave a jab right and followed immediately with a hard left while you were fading off the first one. He reaches a bit (not much required), and the right isn't ready to fire again yet. Here, you have a bit of space to use a 2-hand response like this. He's showing it without footwork, so it looks worse than it probably would with some movement. It's also way out of context, so I can't tell his awareness of the other arm. If I come into the arm with both hands that way (facing the arm, from the inside), I messed up and am attacking that arm and shoulder/neck HARD to try to reduce impact from the hand I can't defend against. When we use a 2-hand response, it comes off defending both sides: one hand blocking/handling the primary attack, while the other "occupies space" to be available to defend the second if it shows up. I've seen it taught to beginners with both hands on the one arm like that, and corrected later as they get the movement down. It's usually done to make sure both hands stay up (a problem for beginners), but I prefer to teach the separate jobs from the start.

EDIT: I just understood the last part, and he's going to need that (I call it an "arm helmet" block).

You could mabye hit a duck under from there like on the vid.

A good example of what I mean by space on this vid as well.

From what I have seen so much of Aikido is operating in that getting killed by strikes range.

 

[JP3]

The perfect defense is to

- put your fists as close to your opponent's face as possible.
- not giving him enough space to generate his fast and powerful punch.
- interrupt his attack in the initial stage.
- separate his arm away from his head and body.
- ...

The question is "how to achieve that?"

Therefore, it is not perfect, is it. If it was perfect, you could just tell me what it is and I'd immediately understand it perfectly and be able to use it perfectly.

 

[JP3]

Agreed. In fact, I teach my students that, early on, the techniques aren't even the point. Kuzushi/taking structure is the point. If we get halfway in and the technique fails, but we've done our job well at the beginning, there are lots of openings for striking and other techniques. If we get halfway in and the technique fails, but we've skipped the first job (taking structure), we're hosed.

I think this hosed state is where Drop is perceiving where all of our stuff ends up.

 

[JP3]

If you can separate your opponent's arms away from his head and body, he won't be able to generate power and speed with his punch any more.

IMO, the best defense is not to let your opponent to punch you. It's not how you may block his punches.

I'd agree with that, to be closely followed by not being where he is, or can, punch.

 

[drop bear]

I think this hosed state is where Drop is perceiving where all of our stuff ends up.

Yep.

Unless you have dominated the striking or are applying really good pressure.

Does Aikido tend to be dominant in striking or apply really good pressure?

 

[JP3]

There are movements that are inherently more risky. Like that video I posed.

The argument isnt whether anyone has a perfect guard. It is whether you can engage without compromising your saftey.

Specifically whether it is an either or situation.

That video would be an either or.

There is a lot of misconception about how much time you have to do stuff in a fight. Which references back to your idea of a rapid 2 dimentional chess game.

Ah, I understand you now.

As wang said, when you come in the front door you've got to be able to deal with both arms. In my guy's terminology, when you walk right down the barrel you've got to expect bullets, and bullets hurt.

 

[JP3]

You could mabye hit a duck under from there like on the vid.

A good example of what I mean by space on this vid as well.

From what I have seen so much of Aikido is operating in that getting killed by strikes range.

It is, you got it. My and Gerry's lines seem to differ from what you've seen in that we are setting up a situation where the guy is not "pointed at us." That's the goal, anyway. IMO operating in the line of fire is ... well... wrong. Doing what I'm teaching, it's wrong. Doing what I used to do in the Thai? Different, sometimes. Fine to be right there, as the point of what I was doing was literally getting there the fastest with the mostest.

Whew, I just cleaned that up prior to posting it. It "used to read:" Getting there the fastest with the moistest.

And that would be all kinds of wrong.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Therefore, it is not perfect, is it. If it was perfect, you could just tell me what it is and I'd immediately understand it perfectly and be able to use it perfectly.

Many boxers like to

- keep their leading arm stiff,
- keep that leading stiff arm fist right in front of their opponent's face, and
- only punch with the back hand.

That "stiff arm jab" is one strategy to "fight in your opponent's territory and not to fight in your own territory".

At 0.53 - 1.05 in the following clip.

 

[JP3]

Yep.

Unless you have dominated the striking or are applying really good pressure.

Does Aikido tend to be dominant in striking or apply really good pressure?

That's a big definition, Drop. "Does aikido..." there's a lot of stuff out there called aikido, and some that's one way and others that are other ways. So, I don't know. I can answe4r about mine, and Gerry can answer about his, and SpineDoc can answer about his. We're a multiple-personality bunch. You did know that we're all the same human being, right?

J/K. Define dominating striking for me first. I think I know what you mean, but want to make sure.

 

[JP3]

Many boxers like to

- keep their leading arm stiff,
- keep that leading stiff arm fist right in front of their opponent's face, and
- only punch with the back hand.

That "stiff arm jab" is one strategy to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory.

At 0.53 - 1.05 in the following clip.

I get that, but that's a boxing-only strategy imo... if the dude did that to a grappler, don't you think it'd be "grappled?"

Judo people try to do that, too... when they're learning. It goes away after the first time someone snaps into a standing arm bar. That hurts, that snapping.

 

[drop bear]

That's a big definition, Drop. "Does aikido..." there's a lot of stuff out there called aikido, and some that's one way and others that are other ways. So, I don't know. I can answer about mine, and Gerry can answer about his, and SpineDoc can answer about his. We're a multiple-personality bunch. You did know that we're all the same human being, right?

J/K. Define dominating striking for me first. I think I know what you mean, but want to make sure.

I am not expecting anybody to answer for anyone else. And I accept what I may see consistently may not be the be all and end all.

Dominating striking is in an environment where generally both people can strike. But one guy is bashing the other guy.

At which point the chess game works like one guy will be trying to move to where hitting is easier. And the other guy is moving to where hitting is harder.

At wrist grab range. Hitting is really easy.

 

[drop bear]

I get that, but that's a boxing-only strategy imo... if the dude did that to a grappler, don't you think it'd be "grappled?"

Judo people try to do that, too... when they're learning. It goes away after the first time someone snaps into a standing arm bar. That hurts, that snapping.

Boxing people fluff that for the same reason as well. Leave the arm out there too long and your head is exposed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I get that, but that's a boxing-only strategy imo... if the dude did that to a grappler, don't you think it'd be "grappled?"

Judo people try to do that, too... when they're learning. It goes away after the first time someone snaps into a standing arm bar. That hurts, that snapping.

Stiff arms strategy such as "double spears - rotate both arms inward" is also used in Chinese wrestling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Leave the arm out there too long and your head is exposed.

When I extend my arm, if my fist is just right in front of your face (not touching your face), your fist will not be able to hit on my face (if we both have the same arm length).

Since your opponent puts his arm right in your striking path, if your fist want to meet his face, your fist has to deal with his arm first.

 

[drop bear]

I had a thought.

With these sort of conversations. And ones where people think I am saying MMA is the only way. Or that i don't understand Aikido.

Do you guys think that these factors somehow change from system to system?

Where i can't create space in the clinch in MMA due to the risk of getting pulverised. You can in Aikido?

That there is just a stylistic difference here?

Because that is a fairly rare circumstance.

 

[drop bear]

When I extend my arm, if my fist is just right in front of your face (not touching your face), your fist will not be able to hit on my face (if we both have the same arm length).

Since your opponent puts his arm right in your striking path, if your fist want to meet his face, your fist has to deal with his arm first.

Yeah. But then have given away position on that arm. A jab is dangerous. A straight arm isn't.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

people think I am saying MMA is the only way. Or that i don't understand Aikido.

If you ask an Aikido guy to fight in the cage, his art will evolve.