Aikido hate

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it would be really interestingand healthy if that aikido guy were to continue to spar with that Mma guy. I think his aikido would improve dramatically, and possibly evolve as he lets some unrealistic techniques go. Mma guy would learn some things, too, probably.

Agreed. If he just got used to punches (both giving and receiving), he'd open up a range of application he doesn't seem to have.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Probably because it's psychologically hard to perform a committed entry against non-telegraphed combination attacks if you aren't used to seeing them come at you. The Aikidoin probably knew intellectually what he needed to do but he just didn't have the sparring experience to comfortably pull the trigger, so to speak. It's one thing to perform good irimi against a single stylized overcommitted attack which is telegraphed from eight feet away. It's quite another to perform it against someone stalking you down with deceptive combination attacks and the worry that you are going to be walking into a punch when you enter.

It would be interesting to see what the Aikido guy could manage if he devoted some months to getting comfortable in that environment with those sorts of attacks coming at him.

This is a big reason it's good to practice with folks from other styles, and to have some good sparring even in a style like Aikido. You have to have enough exposure to a good striker in sparring to develop pattern recognition. Only when things look familiar will you reliably find the technique to respond to them.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. If he just got used to punches (both giving and receiving), he'd open up a range of application he doesn't seem to have.

How to apply armlocks on guys who are fighting back.

 

[O'Malley]

Actually, that soft, "polite" punching is more problematic than someone going for it. There's no commitment of weight (unnecessary at that speed), and Ueshiba's Aikido depends heavily upon that, from what I've seen. They also work so far out that they can't make effective use of a clean clinch.

I'm curious where you saw this. Overcommitting your weight is bad budo, uke should try to keep his balance as much as possible and not fall on his own... A decent karate tsuki does not commit his weight more than a boxer's cross. It's just what any decent martial artist would do and it is highly unlikely that O'Sensei and the other famous "aikido fighters" repeatedly beat advanced martial artists (judoka, karateka, boxers, sumo wrestlers and whatnot) by "relying heavily" on them committing their weight.

Can't tell about the other dojos but in mine (Sugano line I think, with influences from Tissier and others) even for techniques that use uke's momentum it's tori's job to break uke's structure (doing what judokas would call kuzushi). And we're pretty "soft" on techniques but softness shouldn't be an excuse for bad positioning.

 

[JP3]

Actually, that soft, "polite" punching is more problematic than someone going for it. There's no commitment of weight (unnecessary at that speed), and Ueshiba's Aikido depends heavily upon that, from what I've seen. They also work so far out that they can't make effective use of a clean clinch.

I'll go with that. It's why my brain prefers Tomiki's aikido to traditional Ueshiba.... because of the connection to judo. A typical Tomiki aikido class will have at some point enough judo to get at least a working understanding of judo (much, much better if you actually Do judo as well of course) so that the grappling-distance mai ai out to the longer typical distanced aikido that you see's mai ai flows, one into and out of the other. Punch comes, enter, blend seeking kotegaeshi, defender moves in as counter and Wallah! Osoto-gari variations pop up.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

Hello everyone,
Why does Aikido get so much hate? I realize that BJJ and MMA are very mainstream at the moment, and some of those guys are the biggest Aikido haters out there. No offense. It all boils down to: Did any of the MMA fighters do aikido?" Some people go as far as calling it ********, ineffective, a waste of time, etc. Really? I visited the local Aikido school, and I loved the atmosphere. I'd like to know what your opinion of this art is. I believe most (if not all) arts can be applied in certain scenarios. I have to admit that I am not one of those people that dream of killing/dismantling others. That's the last thing I want to to.

Thank you in advance.

This may just be my personal viewpoint, but I no longer believe in styles, or the notion of one style being better than another style. I think Aikido is a beautiful martial art with much to offer. Even though I have experience in Judo and in MMA, honesly I love Aikido and hold absolutely no hatred towards it as a martial artist. I would say to learn as much as you can from anywhere you can. Do not let the opinions of others hinder your own personal growth and development.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How to apply armlocks on guys who are fighting back.

Nice moves there. I love to watch the close control used in wrestling and BJJ, like that head bump control in the first one. I need to play with that some more. I get to work with close arm control and hip/waist control a fair amount, but don't run my head into people as much as I used to because I wear glasses now.

Just a bit of vocabulary, in case we run into confusion later. I wouldn't call either of those "locks". They're "arm control" in my usage - a lock (again, in my usage) would be where you actually start to over-extend a joint in some direction, causing it to lock up. It wouldn't be too hard to push that Russian arm bar into a lock (to us: Arm Bar breaking across the chest), depending upon how his opponent moves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm curious where you saw this. Overcommitting your weight is bad budo, uke should try to keep his balance as much as possible and not fall on his own... A decent karate tsuki does not commit his weight more than a boxer's cross. It's just what any decent martial artist would do and it is highly unlikely that O'Sensei and the other famous "aikido fighters" repeatedly beat advanced martial artists (judoka, karateka, boxers, sumo wrestlers and whatnot) by "relying heavily" on them committing their weight.

Can't tell about the other dojos but in mine (Sugano line I think, with influences from Tissier and others) even for techniques that use uke's momentum it's tori's job to break uke's structure (doing what judokas would call kuzushi). And we're pretty "soft" on techniques but softness shouldn't be an excuse for bad positioning.

I should have been clearer. That's what I see in a lot of what's out there now, which (I believe) has in many places degraded because of the stylized attacks. I've seen uke fully commit weight forward (still balanced, but weight moving further forward than necessary) quite a lot when visiting schools. It's an over-pursuit of one version of "aiki", IMO. I actually use two different definitions of "aiki" even in my own training. One is the "pure" version, which almost entirely uses the committed momentum of an attack. The other is more conceptual, and more in line with the "ju" in Judo/Jiujutsu, and is seen in a lot more arts. Both are useful, but an over-concentration on the first version leads over generations to a dependence upon that forward commitment. A "polite" strike doesn't have it. Nor does any cautious, controlled strike - the only strike I'd offer someone I knew was a competent grappler, until I had them off-center.

 

[drop bear]

Nice moves there. I love to watch the close control used in wrestling and BJJ, like that head bump control in the first one. I need to play with that some more. I get to work with close arm control and hip/waist control a fair amount, but don't run my head into people as much as I used to because I wear glasses now.

Just a bit of vocabulary, in case we run into confusion later. I wouldn't call either of those "locks". They're "arm control" in my usage - a lock (again, in my usage) would be where you actually start to over-extend a joint in some direction, causing it to lock up. It wouldn't be too hard to push that Russian arm bar into a lock (to us: Arm Bar breaking across the chest), depending upon how his opponent moves.

Sorry. They are not videos of arm locks. They are videos of how to get an arm isolate and keep it without getting your face punched in.

Which for me is the most important part of the lock.

Once you can get the position the submission is easy.

From 2 on 1 i can hit a lot of locks throws and positions. If i rush for the lock and wind up in crap positioning. That is where i get punched in the head.

You see Aikido guy do it sparring. He grabs the wrist. But where is he?

Directly in front of a shot.

 

[drop bear]

I should have been clearer. That's what I see in a lot of what's out there now, which (I believe) has in many places degraded because of the stylized attacks. I've seen uke fully commit weight forward (still balanced, but weight moving further forward than necessary) quite a lot when visiting schools. It's an over-pursuit of one version of "aiki", IMO. I actually use two different definitions of "aiki" even in my own training. One is the "pure" version, which almost entirely uses the committed momentum of an attack. The other is more conceptual, and more in line with the "ju" in Judo/Jiujutsu, and is seen in a lot more arts. Both are useful, but an over-concentration on the first version leads over generations to a dependence upon that forward commitment. A "polite" strike doesn't have it. Nor does any cautious, controlled strike - the only strike I'd offer someone I knew was a competent grappler, until I had them off-center.

Yeah but these committed strikes have their own issues. They come really fast and are really dangerous.

That nature tends to counter your ability to redirect them.

Man seriously. Get some big gloves, some headgear and throw bombs. I think you will be really surprised at what you cant counter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry. They are not videos of arm locks. They are videos of how to get an arm isolate and keep it without getting your face punched in.

Which for me is the most important part of the lock.

Once you can get the position the submission is easy.

From 2 on 1 i can hit a lot of locks throws and positions. If i rush for the lock and wind up in crap positioning. That is where i get punched in the head.

You see Aikido guy do it sparring. He grabs the wrist. But where is he?

Directly in front of a shot.

Okay, just wanted to make sure we didn't have a vocabulary difference to deal with. And I agree, entirely. Doing a lock from out front is normally a recipe for getting punched, which neatly reduces the chance of getting that lock on. He didn't seem to be doing anything to get offline, inside, or around. And he was also trying to activate a technique without breaking his opponent's structure. That's damnably hard to do unless the guy is very drunk or has been hit hard first (in which case, he has no stable structure to speak of).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but these committed strikes have their own issues. They come really fast and are really dangerous.

That nature tends to counter your ability to redirect them.

Man seriously. Get some big gloves, some headgear and throw bombs. I think you will be really surprised at what you cant counter.

Oh, they definitely have their own problems. And if you're not able to deal with them as the big punches they are (defending the punch), you'll be in no position to do anything with them. This is why we spend time sparring (which to us means only strikes).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And he was also trying to activate a technique without breaking his opponent's structure. That's damnably hard to do unless the guy is very drunk or has been hit hard first (in which case, he has no stable structure to speak of).

Something I have been hammering in to my students in recent weeks is that just about all effective grappling, whether throws or submissions, is about primarily compromising your opponent's structure without compromising your own structure in the process. If you have a solid base, alignment, and structure then I am very unlikely to throw you without offsetting those first. (This process includes not just kuzushi in the typical sense of offsetting the opponent's balance, but also other aspects of their body alignment and structure.) If I do manage to disrupt your structure but compromise my own structure in the process, then there's a good chance that not only will the throw fail but I may get thrown myself. If I can take you out of structure and keep my own, then there is an excellent chance I will get some sort of takedown.

The difference between an expert takedown artist and myself is that a real expert only needs to disrupt your structure for a split second to finish the takedown. Being mediocre at takedowns, I usually have to maintain that positional advantage a little longer to complete my technique.

Submissions on the ground work the same way. The biggest difference is that once you've compromised your opponent's structure it's easier to gradually ratchet his structure into worse and worse shape until your positional advantage makes it easy to finish your technique.

The biggest problem I see with grappling novices is trying to force a "technique" before they have won that battle for superior structure.

 

[Spinedoc]

but I can't help but believe the majority of people practicing Aikido want to be able to protect themselves in the unlikely event some MMA-trained goon attacks them.

While I agree with some of your points, I would have to strongly disagree with this one. Most Aikido folks I know don't train to fight at all. The majority of them don't care if they could beat an MMA-trained goon....Like one of my senior instructors, who is a retired FBI agent and has been doing Aikido for 35 years says...."I wouldn't fight some young, trained fighter...that's stupid. I'd just shoot him." When I tell people in Aikido that I cross train in BJJ, many of them, actually, the majority, don't even know what BJJ is....they don't follow MMA, they don't watch UFC...they couldn't even begin to tell you who the MMA fighters are...or what arts they studied....Mainly because, they simply don't care about that stuff. One of the top Aikido instructors in the country who travels around and conducts seminars all over says that "I don't care how effective Aikido is...I don't train to fight...I train for fitness and making human connections"...

So, I would say that the majority of Aikido practitioners haven't even probably considered the possibility of being attacked by an MMA-trained goon....it's not even on their radar...for right or for wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something I have been hammering in to my students in recent weeks is that just about all effective grappling, whether throws or submissions, is about primarily compromising your opponent's structure without compromising your own structure in the process. If you have a solid base, alignment, and structure then I am very unlikely to throw you without offsetting those first. (This process includes not just kuzushi in the typical sense of offsetting the opponent's balance, but also other aspects of their body alignment and structure.) If I do manage to disrupt your structure but compromise my own structure in the process, then there's a good chance that not only will the throw fail but I may get thrown myself. If I can take you out of structure and keep my own, then there is an excellent chance I will get some sort of takedown.

The difference between an expert takedown artist and myself is that a real expert only needs to disrupt your structure for a split second to finish the takedown. Being mediocre at takedowns, I usually have to maintain that positional advantage a little longer to complete my technique.

Submissions on the ground work the same way. The biggest difference is that once you've compromised your opponent's structure it's easier to gradually ratchet his structure into worse and worse shape until your positional advantage makes it easy to finish your technique.

Agreed. When I'm really "on", I drop people quickly. When I'm "off", I try to drop them too quickly, and end up tugging at them without doing enough to their structure for long enough. When I'm really "off", I upset me more than them. At those moments, I'm thankful if I can locate a good sacrifice technique to attempt a recovery.

The biggest problem I see with grappling novices is trying to force a "technique" before they have won that battle for superior structure.

This. I also see this among relatively experienced (let's say 5 years of experience) students who haven't had to deal with consequences of doing this. If someone trains with a non-compliant uke (meaning they don't just fall for no reason, and may resist the technique), but the uke doesn't retaliate for failed technique (by continuing to attack, countering with their own technique, etc.), then they tend to try to "fix" (force) a technique, rather than bailing to a technique or approach that better fits the situation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I can take you out of structure and keep my own, then there is an excellent chance I will get some sort of takedown.

I'll use a simple guideline. If I can "make my opponent's spine to bend side way, forward, or backward", I'll complete my throw. Otherwise, I will borrow his resistance, change my force vector, apply different throw, and try to throw him in the opposite direction.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, just wanted to make sure we didn't have a vocabulary difference to deal with. And I agree, entirely. Doing a lock from out front is normally a recipe for getting punched, which neatly reduces the chance of getting that lock on. He didn't seem to be doing anything to get offline, inside, or around. And he was also trying to activate a technique without breaking his opponent's structure. That's damnably hard to do unless the guy is very drunk or has been hit hard first (in which case, he has no stable structure to speak of).

See anybody who spars or competes does that with pressure. So you apply pressure and if they don't resist their structure breaks. If they do resist then they have provided that Aiki that you are looking for.

The more the subtle use of pressure the more Aiki will look like the Aiki you are looking for.

So some really light wrestling here. Which is forcing the guys to use technique.

 

[JP3]

Yeah but these committed strikes have their own issues. They come really fast and are really dangerous.

That nature tends to counter your ability to redirect them.

Man seriously. Get some big gloves, some headgear and throw bombs. I think you will be really surprised at what you cant counter.

I've done that.

If by "counter," you mean one of the fancy traps, which leads to a wrist, which flows quite nicely and neatly into some kata-perfect locked position with said bomb-thrower standing on tip-toe tapping frenziedly with his other hand... you got that right.

However, said bomb thrower, when evaded, nearly always has a hard time regaining his posture before I can be beside him doing things he doesn't want to his ability to stand up srtraight and throw more of them. It ain't perfect, and it's messy, and it looks grappl-y, but it does work.

 

[drop bear]

I've done that.

If by "counter," you mean one of the fancy traps, which leads to a wrist, which flows quite nicely and neatly into some kata-perfect locked position with said bomb-thrower standing on tip-toe tapping frenziedly with his other hand... you got that right.

However, said bomb thrower, when evaded, nearly always has a hard time regaining his posture before I can be beside him doing things he doesn't want to his ability to stand up srtraight and throw more of them. It ain't perfect, and it's messy, and it looks grappl-y, but it does work.

It is one punch you have picked out or set up. Not a whole system.

 

[JP3]

It is one punch you have picked out or set up. Not a whole system.

I think I agree with that. But, by one punch, what I mean is that I'm looking for that "one punch" where they guy comes out of his shell and is trying to deliver a bomb. It doesn't matter what type of punch it is, anything from haymaker, uppercut to straight lead jab can be overextended and compromise the other guy's balance/posture/structure. And, by overextended, I'm talking about him doing it, not my magically causing it to happen with clever footwork or whatever. ... hmm... though... it is interesting to watch what happens when a bomnb-thrower misses and he gets a finger poke in the shoulder which is at right angles to his line of attack.

When overextension happens is where I'd call it Aikido, and the close stuff I'd call judo or jujitsu since that's what I do. It probably looks a lot like other stuff I don't know the names of in other arts. Based on your tactical thoughts in other threads, I'd wager you do the exact same type of thing, i.e. slip, close, clinch, lock and control.