Aikido against a boxer

[Ryback]

I'm pretty sure I saw some video of Shioda using big entry movements in initiating action, again going back to his younger years.

Right... Gozo Shioda left o'sensei early on and he wasn't really effected by Ueshiba's later Omoto kyo inspiration...
So the Yoshinkan lineage is closer to early o'sensei...

 

[now disabled]

Agreed. I'm not trying to be rude to the guy but these are concepts that even people like us studying Aikido have spent some years to get used to and starting applying the techniques correctly...
Almost all of us, as beginners couldn't even get the whole movement right, and after we managed to do it we were doing the techniques using too much arm muscle strength...
Aikido has the concept of Aiki and the concept of randori, so it cannot be explained in a "he does this, you do that" kind of way...
Maybe I'm not good at explaining it, if you can do it better please try because it's a nice thing that someone is trying to understand the basic principles of a martial art he hasn't practiced, but I feel I can't help enough...

no I get you totally

It is all the vids that are out there showing folks being taught the basics that can give a wrong impression and also the demos as well most of them are set up and the seminars are really breaking down things to see why or where and what

just my opinion

 

[now disabled]

Here is the short clip. Your opponent still holds on your leading arm.

ok then one option would be as already said follow him use the momentum he has created to your advantage and when you "feel" you have that a simple tenkan movement (180) alows you to possibly then go for irimi nage omote or even just kokyu ho ... I can be more specific as it really all hypothetical and for everything I can say you as another martial artist can counter so it can go on and on lol

 

[now disabled]

Right... Gozo Shioda left o'sensei early on and he wasn't really effected by Ueshiba's later Omoto kyo inspiration...
So the Yoshinkan lineage is closer to early o'sensei...

He did as he joined the army and was sent to China he did return to Ueshiba briefly tho after the war and before he fully set up Yoshinkan and Ueshiba did award him his 10th dan although he was never affiliated to the Aikikai he never broke with Ueshiba and he always without fail gave Ueshiba his place as his teacher.

Yoshinkan has differences to Aikikai stances etc names is it closer to the pre war Ueshiba I'm not sure possibly but there again the Iwama style claims that and it is and isn't but that for another time lol

 

[drop bear]

Getting to that joint is harder than getting a strike in, most of the time. I prefer grappling, but use striking at least as often when things go live.

which I might add I have done live probably more than most people.

And there is kind of a trick to it.

 

[drop bear]

From that vague description, my first thought is a step toward him might work. If I can make hip contact, I can disrupt structure. Of course, depending where he is and how early I can get that step in, that might also be the wrong move. But it is one option.

It is an arm drag.

If you wanted to get really ninja on the guy you step behind and throw him. Which I bet Aikido has a version of.

The reality is you turn and face. And it becomes that Spinny fight.

But that throw would make you look fly as, if you could pull it off.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But strategy is high level MA.

Trying to move toward your opponent's blind side so his powerful back hand punch cannot reach you is a very important MA strategy.

Agreed. It's pretty common in most martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

When your opponent drags your leading arm and run behind you, your back hand can't punch him.

In order to disrupt his structure, you have to sense his balance point. When you do that, you may just fall into your opponent's trap - he want you to move with him.

Any respond that "you move with your opponent" (harmony?) is bad solution here.

No there are a couple of harmony options from there. And a really nice one if you are the one doing the drag.

Especially from there because you are both moving in the same direction. You are running to his back. He circles towards you
And it becomes a Spinny fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. I'm not trying to be rude to the guy but these are concepts that even people like us studying Aikido have spent some years to get used to and starting applying the techniques correctly...
Almost all of us, as beginners couldn't even get the whole movement right, and after we managed to do it we were doing the techniques using too much arm muscle strength...
Aikido has the concept of Aiki and the concept of randori, so it cannot be explained in a "he does this, you do that" kind of way...
Maybe I'm not good at explaining it, if you can do it better please try because it's a nice thing that someone is trying to understand the basic principles of a martial art he hasn't practiced, but I feel I can't help enough...

The issue is that John is asking for a specific answer, and we (I'm including myself in this, because I train an aiki art) don't think that way. I can give some possibilities, but I need a specific point in time to give anything specific. I need to know weight distribution, balance, structure, and some other stuff that we read in the moment either visually or by feel. So trying to pick a single answer is tough.

 

[drop bear]

Of course it is... Also shooting him with a gun can also be... So what?

Good analogy.

So do gun shooty people train specifically to defend against martial artists?

Of course they don't. They get the right distance. They get the gun pointed at you. And they can hit what they aim at. And it doesn't matter what martial arts someone does.

Those factors become interchangeable. It doesn't even matter if they are developed with street or sport in mind.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is an arm drag.

If you wanted to get really ninja on the guy you step behind and throw him. Which I bet Aikido has a version of.

The reality is you turn and face. And it becomes that Spinny fight.

But that throw would make you look fly as, if you could pull it off.

Yep, if there's a chance to get that turn in (I think Ryback mentioned tenkan), then Aikido certainly has some techniques from that turn. NGA shares similar varieties of those techniques. As you imply, it might not be possible to get to that set of techniques. I'd be more likely to cut the angle inward if that's available. If that sets his balance backward, I'll then have a shot at the ninja techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sorry that this thread suppose to be "Aikido against boxer" thread. I should not turn it into "Aikido against wrestling arm drag" thread.

We train MA to solve problems. Most of the time those problems come from other MA systems.

 

[drop bear]

Yep, if there's a chance to get that turn in (I think Ryback mentioned tenkan), then Aikido certainly has some techniques from that turn. NGA shares similar varieties of those techniques. As you imply, it might not be possible to get to that set of techniques. I'd be more likely to cut the angle inward if that's available. If that sets his balance backward, I'll then have a shot at the ninja techniques.

The thing is blending in real time isn't blending like a lot of people think. it is basically scrambe. And it is agressive.

Now I don't scramble so much because i am getting older. And while I can still grind and maintain pressure. I just can't hit those timing points with the speed needed to do them.

 

[drop bear]

Yep, if there's a chance to get that turn in (I think Ryback mentioned tenkan), then Aikido certainly has some techniques from that turn. NGA shares similar varieties of those techniques. As you imply, it might not be possible to get to that set of techniques. I'd be more likely to cut the angle inward if that's available. If that sets his balance backward, I'll then have a shot at the ninja techniques.

Sexy foot sweeps and stuff. Showing that step behind concept. But you need to be seriously slick.

 

[pdg]

Here is the short clip. Your opponent still holds on your leading arm.

So it's a diversion, but an interesting one.

How is the person doing the holding?

It looks to me as if the hold entirely relies on the holdee keeping his arm bent - simply straightening the arm would surely see the holder just walking away behind you?

I really can't see a need to blend or flow with that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is blending in real time isn't blending like a lot of people think. it is basically scrambe. And it is agressive.

Now I don't scramble so much because i am getting older. And while I can still grind and maintain pressure. I just can't hit those timing points with the speed needed to do them.

I agree it is a more aggressive activity real time. The slow, smooth flow is dojo movement. I still hit the timing points as often as ever, but more now because of skill than speed, and maybe more because I'm less focused on them - more willing to use strikes to change the timing. As my legs get worse, I take smaller steps with less bend in my knee. That's starting to limit my access to some approaches when things speed up, more than my speed of movement is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sexy foot sweeps and stuff. Showing that step behind concept. But you need to be seriously slick.

Oh, but I'm always seriously slick, DB.

Seriously, that's probably part of why there's more Judo in my movement now than there used to be.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How is the person doing the holding?

With the Judo jacket on, the hold can be as simple as a "cross lapel hold" that your right hand grab on your opponent right lapel.

In this clip, the Judo guy uses the "shaking" principle and moves in circle which is similar to the arm drag that I'm talking about. In other words, this situation can happen between a Aikido guy and a Judo guy.

I find this Aikido vs. Judo clip. I don't care who win. I just want to see the difference principles used between Aikido and Judo on the mat. So far, I don't see much difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With the Judo jacket on, the hold can be as simple as a "cross lapel hold" that your right hand grab on your opponent right lapel.

In this clip, the Judo guy uses the "shaking" principle and moves in circle which is similar to the arm drag that I'm talking about. In other words, this situation can happen between a Aikido guy and a Judo guy.

I find this Aikido vs. Judo clip. I don't care who win. I just want to see the difference principles used between Aikido and Judo on the mat. So far, I don't see much difference.

It's loading too slow for me to watch the whole thing, but I agree I didn't see a lot of difference. I've long said that if you put an Aikidoka against someone who won't commit weight, they'll end up looking more like Judo if they're going to be effective. The "ju" in Judo is a similar concept to the "ai" in Aikido.

 

[Ryback]

He did as he joined the army and was sent to China he did return to Ueshiba briefly tho after the war and before he fully set up Yoshinkan and Ueshiba did award him his 10th dan although he was never affiliated to the Aikikai he never broke with Ueshiba and he always without fail gave Ueshiba his place as his teacher.

Yoshinkan has differences to Aikikai stances etc names is it closer to the pre war Ueshiba I'm not sure possibly but there again the Iwama style claims that and it is and isn't but that for another time lol

Of course, Shioda never stopped respecting Ueshiba....
The names of the techniques in Yoshinkan (Ikkajo, Nikkajo etc instead of Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc) show that he was closer to the Daito Ryu era of o'sensei...
Regardless of what he was doing in demos where everything must look impressive, one thing told about Shioda was "you wouldn't mess with the guy"!