Aikido against a boxer

[drop bear]

No matter who it is or what style or art everyone who attacks is vulnerable to some extent. It maybe more or less depending on skill and other factors so you are right he is vulnerable to what extent is open to argument point of view and other factors

Given you pretty much wont see a honest interaction between boxing and Aikido.

Here is BJJ vs boxing to give you an idea of how this plays out.

 

[now disabled]

But like a tank a boxer does not have to concern himself as much with Aikido. Because can attack without making himself vulnerable.

Sorry but I don't agree he may be less vulnerable but no more all attacks leave openings they may not be taken but they are there

 

[now disabled]

Given you pretty much wont see a honest interaction between boxing and Aikido.

Here is BJJ vs boxing to give you an idea of how this plays out.

I cannot fully agree with you at all, no matter what is said you have a view on Aikido and it set in stone lol, we will have to agree to disagree

 

[drop bear]

Sorry but I don't agree he may be less vulnerable but no more all attacks leave openings they may not be taken but they are there

Ok. What openings do you think are left open for Aikido?

 

[drop bear]

I cannot fully agree with you at all, no matter what is said you have a view on Aikido and it set in stone lol, we will have to agree to disagree

My view is you have trained every striking defence at half pace or with prearranged attacks that are not thrown in cobination. From what I have seen normally that is the way it is done.

This unsurprisingly leaves the striker sinificantly open to counter attacks.

Trained like that the feedback you get is incorrect and you have trained a lot of moves that appear to be high percentage. But become low percentage when the dynamics change.

In other words two stage attacks on a punch unless you are lomenchenko and know what you are doing don't work.

They just don't. You dont have the ability to see a punch. Redirect it, then attack that arm before another punch is on its way.

If you see a punch coming at speed I will be impressed.

You just don't get two moves for every one of his moves. That is not reasonable.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is BJJ vs boxing to give you an idea of how this plays out.

This clip remind me the "rhino guard". By using the "rhino guard", at least you can run your big fist at your opponent's face, neck, chest. In this clip, the BBJ guys arms have no threaten to the boxer at all.

The big difference is when your opponent punches,

- without "rhino guard", you may have to move back.
- with "rhino guard", you can still move in without fear. This will give you better change to obtain your clinch.

 

[pdg]

The original "circular dragging" principle was used on the wrestling jacket. To drag a sweated arm can be more difficulty.

Yes, grabbing a handful of sleeve changes the dynamic certainly.

It also presents a different set of challenges and some different possible counters.

But let's say you get some sort of hold on my elbow with your hand - that puts my hand around your elbow, if I can shift to return the grab I can also go for your leg if I want.

 

[pdg]

If you see a punch coming at speed I will be impressed.

I see just about every punch coming. If it's coming from roughly in front of me...

Seeing it coming is not the challenging part though.

Seeing it coming early enough to have sufficient time and speed to react to it, that's the kicker.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, grabbing a handful of sleeve changes the dynamic certainly.

It also presents a different set of challenges and some different possible counters.

But let's say you get some sort of hold on my elbow with your hand - that puts my hand around your elbow, if I can shift to return the grab I can also go for your leg if I want.

When the Chinese wrestling art evolved from jacket to no-jacket, to be able to grab and pull on a sweated arm became difficult. Old saying said, "If your opponent has clothes, grab on his clothes. Otherwise, grab on his skin". It takes monster grip to be able to grab on skin.

 

[now disabled]

My view is you have trained every striking defence at half pace or with prearranged attacks that are not thrown in cobination. From what I have seen normally that is the way it is done.

This unsurprisingly leaves the striker sinificantly open to counter attacks.

Trained like that the feedback you get is incorrect and you have trained a lot of moves that appear to be high percentage. But become low percentage when the dynamics change.

In other words two stage attacks on a punch unless you are lomenchenko and know what you are doing don't work.

They just don't. You dont have the ability to see a punch. Redirect it, then attack that arm before another punch is on its way.

If you see a punch coming at speed I will be impressed.

You just don't get two moves for every one of his moves. That is not reasonable.

I am not going to argue.

I have only respect for boxers and there art and the training they put in and any person that puts in that amount of training and devotion has my respect.

I just cannot as I said fully agree with you on all you say and I am not skilled enough in words to describe things.

You have your views and I have no issue with that but I am not going to agree when I don't and saying I will not see a punch coming at speed. How do you know? it is your opinion on what you have seen of Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are right! To blend or flow with your opponent in that situation is a bad idea. If you let your opponent to get behind you, he can get your leg.

You said he's already behind. Flow wasn't what put him there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why it's important to compare 2 different MA systems such as Aikido and Judo. To compare Aikido with boxing may be too far. But to compare Aikido with Judo should be much similar.

It's hard for me to believe that in Japan, there were not Aikido guys who tried to test their skill against Judo guys (or the other way around).

Many of the early Aikido students were experienced Judoka, so I expect a lot of that went on inside the dojo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It depends on how you interpret 'blend'.

In the specific case of the singular type of arm hold shown in that video, it looks very much to me as though resisting by keeping the arm bent is what enables the hold and turn.

Straighten the arm, step forward out of the hold, find yourself in kicking range.

Is that blending? Because in that specific scenario that would be my most likely response.

There are many things that I could describe as blending with TKD, but whether you'd look at them and see blending or not is an entirely different matter.

And that's the sort of thing I'd like to explore with like minded partners if I get the chance.

In the simplest expression, blending either moves with the direction of the attack (you pull, I step in faster than you can move back) or crosses a straight line at an angle to turn it into a circle (you step in to punch with a right hook, I enter off-line to your left, taking your arm with me). That's sort of the starting point for blending, and you can see there's two different versions even at the start. The easiest description - never meet force with force, but find a way to work with the movement they give, rather than against it - matches your ideas.

Mind you, my "blending" is probably not 100% the "blending" in Aikido, but it's a very close concept.

 

[now disabled]

Many of the early Aikido students were experienced Judoka, so I expect a lot of that went on inside the dojo.

Most if not all of the original deshi and students were skilled in other Arts before they went to Aikido even a current 9th Dan studied his families own style of Archery and Karate and Kendo to before he joined Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't think they commit weight?

That doesn't seem to follow from the post you quoted. Did you mean to reply to my post, where I commented about committing weight?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are circumstances in martial arts where what you train works an overwhelming fundamental basic.

So you can't wrist lock a tank driver because there is a tank in the way. But a tank is not vulnerable when it attacks an Aikidoka. Because it is a tank.

You can't attack a boxer without making yourself vulnerable.

But like a tank a boxer does not have to concern himself as much with Aikido. Because can attack without making himself vulnerable.

You have to move through the boxers specialized range. A boxer just has to keep that range.

True of all grappling arts. That's why strikes are needed. If you have a low entry (single/double-leg), you might be able to slip in below the big guns, but you're still working to penetrate his specialized range.

 

[now disabled]

In the simplest expression, blending either moves with the direction of the attack (you pull, I step in faster than you can move back) or crosses a straight line at an angle to turn it into a circle (you step in to punch with a right hook, I enter off-line to your left, taking your arm with me). That's sort of the starting point for blending, and you can see there's two different versions even at the start. The easiest description - never meet force with force, but find a way to work with the movement they give, rather than against it - matches your ideas.

Mind you, my "blending" is probably not 100% the "blending" in Aikido, but it's a very close concept.

From what you have said and the very limited amount I have seen of NGA you guys do blend and I would say use smaller circles as opposed to alot of Aikido which uses large circle

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A boxer doesn't have to concern himself with Aikido because he can attack without being vulnerable??????
He is vulnerable the moment he attacks an Aikidoka...

The balance a boxer uses when jabbing is not very vulnerable to the kinds of manipulation used in aiki arts. it can be done (that earlier video showed how for an entry to kote gaeshi), but there aren't nearly as many opportunities. And a boxer is used to missing by a little bit (other boxers' head movement teaches them that) so are unlikely to overpursue. That makes them problematic for an Aikidoka who doesn't have strikes. If you can use and defend strikes, you have new entry options, and the good use of kicks can make him want to reach with his longer punches, which open more opportunities. Using boxing entries, footwork, and head movement dramatically improves the Aikidoka's chances.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I cannot fully agree with you at all, no matter what is said you have a view on Aikido and it set in stone lol, we will have to agree to disagree

DB does have an opinion on Aikido (and all aiki, in fact) that's not open to change, but he makes a valid point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My view is you have trained every striking defence at half pace or with prearranged attacks that are not thrown in cobination. From what I have seen normally that is the way it is done.

This unsurprisingly leaves the striker sinificantly open to counter attacks.

Trained like that the feedback you get is incorrect and you have trained a lot of moves that appear to be high percentage. But become low percentage when the dynamics change.

In other words two stage attacks on a punch unless you are lomenchenko and know what you are doing don't work.

They just don't. You dont have the ability to see a punch. Redirect it, then attack that arm before another punch is on its way.

If you see a punch coming at speed I will be impressed.

You just don't get two moves for every one of his moves. That is not reasonable.

It's the grappler's paradox. If he gets the arm, he probably wins with a high percentage. If he doesn't, he has to face another punch. If he tries for the arm, he's more exposed to the next punch, but if he doesn't he's no closer to stopping the punches. The key is controlling the situation until an arm is handy, rather than trying to grab an arm out of the air. Getting to an arm isn't that tough - it happens all the time in boxing. Getting to it with the right timing is the tough part. Of course, the better the boxer, the harder it is to get to, as you'd expect. I'm never getting ahold of Mayweather's arm...well, maybe if he doesn't hit me too hard, he'll let me have his arm to help me up off the floor.