Aikido against a boxer

[Gerry Seymour]

That clip is a perfect example that you should not play your opponent's game. Both resist and yield are not the solution. You will need to interrupt your opponent's game (break the harmony). How to interrupt your opponent's game is the key.

You didn't ask for my preferred solution. You asked how to use the principle of harmony with it. Me, I'd probably punch him, or push at a key moment to disrupt structure. But those aren't how I'd get in harmony with the movement, which is an option.

 

[now disabled]

Could you provide more detail Aikido solution here?

Ok again I'll try and use Kotegaeshi as an example as today (after many tribulations I did get on the mat,) I tried to perform Kotegaeshi but either through my mistake (which it was ) or it could have been the uke making sure he came around to far I changed tact and moved and took him down in simple ikkyo, no it was not what he was expecting nor what I had originally intended but instead of stopping I carried on.

the blending or harmonizing came in there (imo) as I basically cocked it up and had I not kept going and kept the connection and just let him come round I was going to get a nice whack on the face. Ok it was facilitated by my mistake but he knew that and had I not flowed and blended into that situation he was fully trying to disrupt my Flow and my tech.

I maybe have not explained it correctly or in enough detail but I think that is what you meant

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed but you'd also be amazed at how destroying a joint is, it works both ways

Getting to that joint is harder than getting a strike in, most of the time. I prefer grappling, but use striking at least as often when things go live.

 

[Ryback]

I don't. I also haven't met a boxer who says he's trained specifically to defeat those, without ever training with or against people who know those styles.

I never claimed that I'm specifically trained to beat anyone.... I'm studying a martial art that, practiced correctly, forges many combat skills and gives you a better chance of defending yourself than you had when you were untrained...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If someone asks me, "What will you do if I do ...?" If I have answer, I'll say, "I'll do ..."If I don't have answer, I will get my training partner, ask him to apply that strategy on me. I then can experience that myself and then find solution.

IMO, there is nothing in MA that can not be described by words. Of course the best solution is not to let that situation to happen. Just don't let your opponent to land his hand on you. The issue is if your opponent gets hold on you and start to run circle behind you, what should be your respond at that moment. He has a grip on you but you don't have any grip on him.

Describing something in words is not the same as communicating, in some cases. It's tough to explain blending entirely with words. I don't entirely understand some of how it's used in Aikido (we don't tend to get as deep into the nuances of aiki flow as Aikido does).

 

[Ryback]

As well as.

You would be amazed how versatile punching a guy in the face really is.

Of course it is... Also shooting him with a gun can also be... So what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Could you provide more detail Aikido solution here? Your opponent drags your leading arm and move to your blind side that your back hand can't reach him. What should you do at that moment by using Aikido principle?

This is a very interest scenario that I have discussed with many Judo guys before. But I have not had chance to discuss with Aikido guys yet.

From that vague description, my first thought is a step toward him might work. If I can make hip contact, I can disrupt structure. Of course, depending where he is and how early I can get that step in, that might also be the wrong move. But it is one option.

 

[Ryback]

If someone asks me, "What will you do if I do ...?" If I have answer, I'll say, "I'll do ..."If I don't have answer, I will get my training partner, ask him to apply that strategy on me. I then can experience that myself and then find solution.

IMO, there is nothing in MA that can not be described by words. Of course the best solution is not to let that situation to happen. Just don't let your opponent to land his hand on you. The issue is if your opponent gets hold on you and start to run circle behind you, what should be your respond at that moment. He has a grip on you but you don't have any grip on him.

The whole approach of" if he does this you do that" is a conversation about fighting between elementary school kids, not martial artists...

 

[now disabled]

The whole approach of" if he does this you do that" is a conversation about fighting between elementary school kids, not martial artists...

I think he is trying to get a "handle" on the blending side and the why and the mechanics of it, which is not easy to explain

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd probably punch him, or push at a key moment to disrupt structure.

When your opponent drags your leading arm and run behind you, your back hand can't punch him.

In order to disrupt his structure, you have to sense his balance point. When you do that, you may just fall into your opponent's trap - he want you to move with him.

Any respond that "you move with your opponent" (harmony?) is bad solution here.

 

[now disabled]

When your opponent drags your leading arm and run behind you, your back hand can't punch him.

In order to disrupt his structure, you have to sense his balance point. When you do that, you may just fall into your opponent's trap - he want you to move with him.

I'm not getting the dragging arm and running behind could you elaborate on that has he still got a hold or not ?

 

[Ryback]

What you're seeing is them teaching to perform a given technique. Aikido techniques are normally taught only as responses, rather than initiations. But yes, I have seen some taught as initiations, too. I'm not aware of any clips that show this - it's my impression that it's rare in Aikido training, and maybe normally worked late in the curriculum, if at all.

You are correct on that, there is initiative of attacking in Aikido, either by using a technique as an attack or by using attemi in order to cause some reaction from which you could benefit to apply a technique...
It is true that it's rare and mostly got lost into some new age nonsense that o'sensei said or were attributed to him, nut it's clear that there are photos of him doing that.
Anyway, in our dojo we learn how to attack with a technique (but we don't do it every day) and also how to set a static attacker (or wanna be attacker) in motion when it's strategically more convenient for us by using attemi as an attack...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When your opponent drags your leading arm and run behind you, your back hand can't punch him.

In order to disrupt his structure, you have to sense his balance point. When you do that, you may just fall into your opponent's trap - he want you to move with him.

Yes, and any move could be falling into a trap, John. That's a specious argument, at best.

I missed the point about him being behind the shoulder earlier. Disrupting balance and/or structure would be my primary goal. His movement provides whatever openings there are, and that's what I'm looking for. How I break that depends what he's giving me. It might be stepping into his movement to take center. It might be stepping across his movement to change center. It might be extending to change the direction of his push/pull. those are all within aiki flow. For me, it might also be timing an interrupting pull (force just ahead of his force), a weight drop just before a push, or just extending my step (if he's moving me) in a direction that's not moving quite where he's trying to pull me. I think that last one would fit Aikido's principles, but I"m not sure about the two middle ones.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are correct on that, there is initiative of attacking in Aikido, either by using a technique as an attack or by using attemi in order to cause some reaction from which you could benefit to apply a technique...
It is true that it's rare and mostly got lost into some new age nonsense that o'sensei said or were attributed to him, nut it's clear that there are photos of him doing that.
Anyway, in our dojo we learn how to attack with a technique (but we don't do it every day) and also how to set a static attacker (or wanna be attacker) in motion when it's strategically more convenient for us by using attemi as an attack...

I'm pretty sure I saw some video of Shioda using big entry movements in initiating action, again going back to his younger years.

 

[now disabled]

Yes, and any move could be falling into a trap, John. That's a specious argument, at best.

I missed the point about him being behind the shoulder earlier. Disrupting balance and/or structure would be my primary goal. His movement provides whatever openings there are, and that's what I'm looking for. How I break that depends what he's giving me. It might be stepping into his movement to take center. It might be stepping across his movement to change center. It might be extending to change the direction of his push/pull. those are all within aiki flow. For me, it might also be timing an interrupting pull (force just ahead of his force), a weight drop just before a push, or just extending my step (if he's moving me) in a direction that's not moving quite where he's trying to pull me. I think that last one would fit Aikido's principles, but I"m not sure about the two middle ones.

One and three are

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The whole approach of" if he does this you do that" is a conversation about fighting between elementary school kids, not martial artists...

But strategy is high level MA.

Trying to move toward your opponent's blind side so his powerful back hand punch cannot reach you is a very important MA strategy.

 

[Ryback]

I think he is trying to get a "handle" on the blending side and the why and the mechanics of it, which is not easy to explain

Agreed. I'm not trying to be rude to the guy but these are concepts that even people like us studying Aikido have spent some years to get used to and starting applying the techniques correctly...
Almost all of us, as beginners couldn't even get the whole movement right, and after we managed to do it we were doing the techniques using too much arm muscle strength...
Aikido has the concept of Aiki and the concept of randori, so it cannot be explained in a "he does this, you do that" kind of way...
Maybe I'm not good at explaining it, if you can do it better please try because it's a nice thing that someone is trying to understand the basic principles of a martial art he hasn't practiced, but I feel I can't help enough...

 

[now disabled]

I'm pretty sure I saw some video of Shioda using big entry movements in initiating action, again going back to his younger years.

Yes he did but as he grew older he refined that as he could no longer do that he had more flow earlier imo opinion but again that through watching vids but he could and was very direct to

again as you said rightly before Shioda was inclined at any demo to be a showman it was just his character but it was no joke that he could actually do it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not getting the dragging arm and running behind could you elaborate on that has he still got a hold or not ?

Here is the short clip. Your opponent still holds on your leading arm.

 

[now disabled]

But strategy is high level MA.

Trying to move toward your opponent's blind side so his powerful back hand punch cannot reach you is a very important MA strategy.

Yup and that is where and how you blend and disrupt your opponent in what ever way that is possible by what he is trying to do

Yes you could I guess call blending strategy in a way but it only part of it