Aikido against a boxer

[Martial D]

Well, that really depends on how much you've bought into the "lethal moves" myth and how much control you have.

Power is nothing without control, and if you can't control it then you have no business practicing it. You might as well just carry a hammer and be done.

I can kick through (at least) a 4" concrete block - I can kick a person with the same technique at the same speed but with control and while they know they've been tagged it probably won't leave a mark.

That's not because they've magically trained their bones or skull to not fracture...

That's why it's called sparring and not just fighting.

If you can't stop (or at least seriously reduce) a technique at any point during it's application you choose, then imo you don't fully know that technique.

This is also where partners that are too compliant (or only resist in the right way) lead to false confidence in the moves and perpetuate the myth.

If someone gets told "if you don't react in this certain way then this move will break your wrist" then they'll react in that way. They'll resist as they're instructed for fear of damage.

But what if someone knows how to resist differently and can shut down that move every single time? What if they actually analyse it and come up with a better working defence? They get told they're not doing it right...

So, the only danger involved is from someone being so used to a certain reaction from "someone who knows how to receive" getting frustrated at their move suddenly not working and losing control.

Let's say a wrist lock - if I'm in a wrist lock and don't comply, it has the potential to seriously damage my wrist.

And if I choose to not let it get applied?

Exactly this. Nobody is giving up their wrists like that. I've got thousands of hours of sparring against any style you can name, and it just doesn't happen, like ever.

 

[now disabled]

Well, that really depends on how much you've bought into the "lethal moves" myth and how much control you have.

Power is nothing without control, and if you can't control it then you have no business practicing it. You might as well just carry a hammer and be done.

I can kick through (at least) a 4" concrete block - I can kick a person with the same technique at the same speed but with control and while they know they've been tagged it probably won't leave a mark.

That's not because they've magically trained their bones or skull to not fracture...

That's why it's called sparring and not just fighting.

If you can't stop (or at least seriously reduce) a technique at any point during it's application you choose, then imo you don't fully know that technique.

This is also where partners that are too compliant (or only resist in the right way) lead to false confidence in the moves and perpetuate the myth.

If someone gets told "if you don't react in this certain way then this move will break your wrist" then they'll react in that way. They'll resist as they're instructed for fear of damage.

But what if someone knows how to resist differently and can shut down that move every single time? What if they actually analyse it and come up with a better working defence? They get told they're not doing it right...

So, the only danger involved is from someone being so used to a certain reaction from "someone who knows how to receive" getting frustrated at their move suddenly not working and losing control.

Let's say a wrist lock - if I'm in a wrist lock and don't comply, it has the potential to seriously damage my wrist.

And if I choose to not let it get applied?

I think I know what he was meaning he wasn't trying to say lethal moves etc all he was trying to say was that if a person des not know how to breakfall then the potential to get hurt is high.

Yes you can resist

It my ault fr keeping mentioning Kotegaeshi but that was to illustrate a point to another who understands the mechanics of that tech

Ok then you don't know how to take ukemi from elbow techs and you will get hurt and ukemi is not breakfalling ukemi is receiving a tech and it not just a case of him controlling as if you do attempt to resist and you can't take it then accidents can happen

I'm not having a go

Even the first tech ikkyo if you really resist it could cause you injury as that again is the elbow and a pin and if your in the pin and you try then your elbow is at risk

don't base all things on kotegaeshi it just one of many techs and by no means is it the most destructive it just one I used to try and illustrate a point

 

[now disabled]

Are there any Aikido clips that show

- A grabs on B's wrist.
- B tries to do something.
- A releases his wrist grab and does something else (such as a punch to B's face)?

Why don't we see any Aikido clip like this?

Most of the vids you see are demos or seminars if I come across any I will post them ...I doubt your gonna get any with the punch to the face tho. I can see where it could happen if the tech no applied properly but that just cause I got a rough idea of what they are doing and why they could get clocked

 

[now disabled]

So, you are going to ignore what I actually said and instead make some predictions as if you know the first thing about me? Righto then.

You are right about the cage fight thing though, even though everything in the aikido syllabus is legal in there. You won't see it because it doesn't work.

I am not making any accusations against you at all

I have read all your posts and no matter what is said it bam bam Aikido is crap and this is wrong that is wrong the next is wrong ...I agreed with you on some things but jeez unless it basically happens in a cage fight and you can then pick the Aikido guy as a loser you are not going to be happy

If your a total fighter then cool that is your business but jeex you pick holes in everything

Have you ever taken ukemi from a high rank Aikidoka? and I don't mean just a BB I mean godan and above ?

 

[now disabled]

Exactly this. Nobody is giving up their wrists like that. I've got thousands of hours of sparring against any style you can name, and it just doesn't happen, like ever.

Look you are just not getting Aikido at all you basically are trashing every tech saying no that doesn't work and this don't work but you know all the answers

Your going on as if MMA is the ultimate art that cannot be defeated as it used in a cage. So what if every Aikido tech is legal (I dunno as I never really paid that much attention to cage fights or competition (at least not for 25 years) )

All I know is the techs do work yes there is flaws and it by no means the complete system but I am sure you will manage to find more fault

 

[pdg]

I think I know what he was meaning he wasn't trying to say lethal moves etc all he was trying to say was that if a person des not know how to breakfall then the potential to get hurt is high

Do it on pads then.

All the regular training I do is on solid floors - lino over concrete, wood over concrete, that sort of thing. I fall over pretty regularly because I'm willing to push the envelope a bit and do things I'm not capable of until I'm capable of them.

First maybe 5 times I tried a jumping reverse turning kick (spinning heel?) I fell on my **** (well, my arm too). Nothing broke and I'm still breathing.

If I couldn't fall I wouldn't ask someone to try putting me on the floor. Maybe it's not something I'm saying everyone should do, but I'm not everyone.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it by no means the complete system ...

If you ask someone how he will use his MA style to deal with punch, kick, single leg, ..., he may tell you exactly what those strategies/counters are.

What are the Aikido strategies/counters to punch, kick, single leg, and ...?

 

[Ryback]

Well, that really depends on how much you've bought into the "lethal moves" myth and how much control you have.

Power is nothing without control, and if you can't control it then you have no business practicing it. You might as well just carry a hammer and be done.

I can kick through (at least) a 4" concrete block - I can kick a person with the same technique at the same speed but with control and while they know they've been tagged it probably won't leave a mark.

That's not because they've magically trained their bones or skull to not fracture...

That's why it's called sparring and not just fighting.

If you can't stop (or at least seriously reduce) a technique at any point during it's application you choose, then imo you don't fully know that technique.

This is also where partners that are too compliant (or only resist in the right way) lead to false confidence in the moves and perpetuate the myth.

If someone gets told "if you don't react in this certain way then this move will break your wrist" then they'll react in that way. They'll resist as they're instructed for fear of damage.

But what if someone knows how to resist differently and can shut down that move every single time? What if they actually analyse it and come up with a better working defence? They get told they're not doing it right...

So, the only danger involved is from someone being so used to a certain reaction from "someone who knows how to receive" getting frustrated at their move suddenly not working and losing control.

Let's say a wrist lock - if I'm in a wrist lock and don't comply, it has the potential to seriously damage my wrist.

And if I choose to not let it get applied?

It's not a myth, it's true. Aikido techniques can be lethal and dangerous for the person at the receiving end. And sure, the Uke will get hurt if he doesn't know how to receive it, that's not an excuse for him to be compliant, the techniques are designed in order to hurt people, so we must know how to react in order to avoid injury while the technique is being applied full force.
If someone decides to stop a technique from being applied, he can either try to counter it using another technique or try to tense up physically and try to outmuscle the technique.
The first scenario is good because it gives both practitioners a ground of working and refining their skills. The second, I wouldn't recommend for anyone, it can result in major injury, Aikido techniques work and if they are done correctly can be destructive. I have seen my fair share of people getting injured because of ego, and because they thought they can resist an Aikido technique and it's not nice...
Aikido's harmony is a technical skill, not a brainwashing philosophy. It means that we are relaxed, we blend with the attacker instead of colliding with him, for the simple reason that the way Aikido works, if done right, it's a more effective strategy than facing the opponent's power head on.
We are relaxed but not dead. We are soft but not weak. We are not brutal but we can have pretty brutal result for the attacker. And if one practices Aikido having practical application in mind, after spending some serious time studying the art he may unlock the truth behind Steven Seagal Sensei's words "the soft is the most severe".

 

[now disabled]

A vid from Tenshin Style

 

[drop bear]

I see your point and it's interesting. But wouldn't it be dangerous to try to apply techniques to persons who don't know how to receive them?
I mean, one advantage of applying Aikido techniques to Aikido people is that they can use their ukemi skills in order to avoid injury.
Many people think that ukemi is like falling on your own but it's not. Ukemi waza is an escape technique, meaning that you fall (only after feeling the real effect of the technique)in order to avoid broken bones, joint dislocations and other injuries... So in that sense, I can apply full force Aikido techniques because I know that the Uke can take it.
Now, if I tried to do that to a Karate guy for instance, he could strike fast and strong but would he be able to take the effect of my technique without getting injured? That would make me hold back on my technique rendering the whole practice fake in my opinion...

You don't grind the technique on like a spaz.

You use some finesse.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly this. Nobody is giving up their wrists like that. I've got thousands of hours of sparring against any style you can name, and it just doesn't happen, like ever.

It is low percentage.

 

[Martial D]

It is low percentage.

Like getting hit by lightning while golfing low.

 

[now disabled]

you asked for Kaeshi waza again they demos

 

[Martial D]

I am not making any accusations against you at all

I have read all your posts and no matter what is said it bam bam Aikido is crap and this is wrong that is wrong the next is wrong ...I agreed with you on some things but jeez unless it basically happens in a cage fight and you can then pick the Aikido guy as a loser you are not going to be happy

If your a total fighter then cool that is your business but jeex you pick holes in everything

Have you ever taken ukemi from a high rank Aikidoka? and I don't mean just a BB I mean godan and above ?

Yes we have had several aikido BB of various ranks over the years, in fact there is one that comes by every tuesday. He would be the first to tell you you need a very special setup to get a wrist lock, much less a wristlock throw. They are super easy to defend.

And ya, ive let him throw me around, emphasis on let.

 

[now disabled]

Yes we have had several aikido BB of various ranks over the years, in fact there is one that comes by every tuesday. He would be the first to tell you you need a very special setup to get a wrist lock, much less a wristlock throw. They are super easy to defend.

And ya, ive let him throw me around, emphasis on let.

you are fixated on wrist locks lol

good you let him fair enough you win ok your the complete warrior I bow to your superior skills and your knowledge

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Aikido's harmony is a technical skill ...the soft is the most severe".

Can you still be soft if your opponent shakes you? Your softness just make your opponent's shaking works better for him.

Does Aikido use any "vibration force" that can be used to interrupt opponent's force?

The concept of "harmony" bother me. Why do you want your opponent to be harmony with you? The more that you can make your opponent feel uncomfortable (enharmonic), the better will be for yourself.

 

[Martial D]

you are fixated on wrist locks lol

good you let him fair enough you win ok your the complete warrior I bow to your superior skills and your knowledge

I will conclude this discussion by referring you to the words of Mr Musashi in my sig. Believe as you will.

 

[now disabled]

I will conclude this discussion by referring you to the words of Mr Musashi in my sig. Believe as you will.

Don't you dare quote that at me are you now claiming your a sword saint too ???????????????? and going to shoot holes there

 

[now disabled]

Can you still be soft if your opponent shakes you? Your softness just make your opponent's shaking works better for him.

Does Aikido use any "vibration force" that can be used to interrupt opponent's force?

Not that I know of

 

[pdg]

It's not a myth, it's true. Aikido techniques can be lethal and dangerous for the person at the receiving end. And sure, the Uke will get hurt if he doesn't know how to receive it, that's not an excuse for him to be compliant, the techniques are designed in order to hurt people, so we must know how to react in order to avoid injury while the technique is being applied full force.
If someone decides to stop a technique from being applied, he can either try to counter it using another technique or try to tense up physically and try to outmuscle the technique.
The first scenario is good because it gives both practitioners a ground of working and refining their skills. The second, I wouldn't recommend for anyone, it can result in major injury, Aikido techniques work and if they are done correctly can be destructive. I have seen my fair share of people getting injured because of ego, and because they thought they can resist an Aikido technique and it's not nice...
Aikido's harmony is a technical skill, not a brainwashing philosophy. It means that we are relaxed, we blend with the attacker instead of colliding with him, for the simple reason that the way Aikido works, if done right, it's a more effective strategy than facing the opponent's power head on.
We are relaxed but not dead. We are soft but not weak. We are not brutal but we can have pretty brutal result for the attacker. And if one practices Aikido having practical application in mind, after spending some serious time studying the art he may unlock the truth behind Steven Seagal Sensei's words "the soft is the most severe".

See the way I read that is you saying that only aikido can work against aikido, anything else is ego and attempt at muscle.

Can you, in any way, accept that other techniques and skill sets can work against aikido and that I'm not coming from an ego perspective?

If you can't, then I'm afraid I have no choice but to label you as one of the brainwashed...

Say I punch and you flow with that, but then I'm able to redirect your energy, which was already added to my initial energy in a direction you're not expecting.

That is of course assuming you're able to flow with my style of punching in the first place, which neither of us actually know.

You won't be able to use my over commitment for a start, because that doesn't happen.

Maybe you can work with me retracting my hand, but that could bring you straight into my elbow.

And if that misses, I bet you didn't even notice my knee looking sternly at your solar plexus...

Thing is, I don't know if that would work against you, and you sure as shinola don't know if you can work against me.

But, judging your previous comments about working with other arts, I bet you can confidently state that you could, because you've had someone pretend to do something similar (even though they don't actually know what they're doing).