Aikido against a boxer

[Gerry Seymour]

Also Ueshiba did a far bit of that (randori) as did I think Kano (judo) @gpseymour may correct me on that as he has judo experience and if memory serves Kano did send students of his to Ueshiba to study their names I cannot remember and it was before the name Aikido was used I can't remember if it was when he was still with Takeda or just after (I don't mean in Hokkaido) so they cross trained ... they didn't give up there art just learned from another so cross training is no evil and it has gone on for years it just gets glossed over mostly

There are others here with far more Judo experience than I have, but randori is a common part of Judo training. We started doing it after our first technique or two. Randori (in Judo) is two players trying to throw each other, and it really sharpens the grappling game and makes obvious what doesn't work in that context.

 

[now disabled]

The way some (maybe most - I'm not sure) Aikido schools do randori, it's not sparring, because the "attackers" aren't allowed to use their Aikido. If it is randori like Judo does randori, then it's really free-sparring for grapplers. That's something Aikido students need. I can tell pretty quickly if an Aikido student (of any level) has done true free randori, because if they have, they won't be grabbing for wrists - they'll know that doesn't work when you go grabbing.

I get your point

and the bit about wrist grabs is true the minute anyone tries that then the door is open and well it open.

I have done randori and it was expected that i would use anything I wanted as uke be it Aikido or not

Yes a lot of schools it basically run at the nage and act like your a dumbass lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

act like your a dumbass

I do that, too, but usually not inside the dojo.

 

[now disabled]

I do that, too, but usually not inside the dojo.

Umm don't we all ....my excuse it comes with age and to many whacks on the head

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Agreed, assuming "full resisting" is something they don't know how to turn off.

The key word is "don't know how to turn off".

From a wrestler's point of view, I love to deal with "full resisting" opponent. I will know that my opponent will resist against everything that I try to do on him. When I pull, he will pull too. When I push, he will also push.

Comparing a "full resisting" opponent with a "full yielding" opponent, the "full yielding" opponent may give me more trouble. When I pull, he will push. When I push, he will pull.

I can take advantage on both "full resisting" and "full yielding' opponent.

The most difficult opponent to deal with is those who can "vibrate his body". No matter what you do on him, his body vibration can cancel out all your force.

 

[Ryback]

I think there's another bit you're not understanding here too.

Cross training, in this context.

The mention I've made could be interpreted in the same way as I've interpreted what @gpseymour has said.

I'm (we're?) not talking about cross training as in going and training another art in an attempt to augment or change your own art.

What I'm (we're?) on about is using your art against different techniques that you'll never see from your usual training partners.

You're not taking techniques from other arts, you're exploring how to apply your own techniques against someone who doesn't also know them.

You're also looking into what happens when the rules change - how does what you know hold up?

For me, can I take my TKD techniques and make them work under different restrictions? Sure, I can get a spinning heel against a boxer, but can I use the appropriate parts of my TKD under boxing rules?

Can I use the TKD techniques I know under judo rules? If I'm not allowed to kick, can I reapply a block or strike as a grab and takedown instead?

Also, can I look at, say, judo moves and identify things that I know from TKD and see "new" ways to use them?

Quite honestly, I think you're too programmed into the dogma of sparring being bad and cross training diluting your art to have an open enough mind to see the massive possibilities that could become available.

I see your point and it's interesting. But wouldn't it be dangerous to try to apply techniques to persons who don't know how to receive them?
I mean, one advantage of applying Aikido techniques to Aikido people is that they can use their ukemi skills in order to avoid injury.
Many people think that ukemi is like falling on your own but it's not. Ukemi waza is an escape technique, meaning that you fall (only after feeling the real effect of the technique)in order to avoid broken bones, joint dislocations and other injuries... So in that sense, I can apply full force Aikido techniques because I know that the Uke can take it.
Now, if I tried to do that to a Karate guy for instance, he could strike fast and strong but would he be able to take the effect of my technique without getting injured? That would make me hold back on my technique rendering the whole practice fake in my opinion...

 

[Ryback]

Actually @Ryback does probably spar only he may call it and look on it in a different light

I assume he does Randori although not technically sparring as you might call it but it is there or should be

You are correct, I practice in a randori mode but I don't call it sparring because to me sparring is like kumite... So it's just a different term. But I am practicing with free attacks with strikes, kicks and knife and on a previous post I already mentioned how I had my nose injured badly, since the Uke is always sincere and true while attacking.
The way we practice in our dojo the Uke is really trying to get you, if you deflect he can keep coming at you,if your technique is not effective or fast enough you get hit and even if you apply technique he will counter it if he can find a gap in it.
Of course, this is not our only practice, we practice basics anyway and you can't start a beginner with randori anyway...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Aikido may pay too much emphasize on the wrist lock. You can counter a wrist lock by

- raising your elbow, or
- turning your body.

The head lock, shoulder lock, elbow lock are much more difficult to counter.

There are

- wrist gate,
- elbow gate,
- shoulder gate.

Since the wrist gate is so far away from your body. When you apply the wrist gate lock/throw, you may give your opponent too much free space to counter.

As far as the efficiency,

shoulder lock > elbow lock > wrist lock

 

[now disabled]

Aikido may pay too much emphasize on the wrist lock. You can counter a wrist lock by

- raising your elbow, or
- turning your body.

The head lock, shoulder lock, elbow lock are much more difficult to counter.

There are

- wrist gate,
- elbow gate,
- shoulder gate.

Since the wrist gate is so far away from your body. When you apply the wrist gate lock/throw, you may give your opponent too much free space to counter.

As far as the efficiency,

shoulder lock > elbow lock > wrist lock

That may be my fault giving that impression keeping mentioning Kotegaeshi

 

[Martial D]

I don't agree with the last statement, unless you're talking about having a false perception of ability.

I'm saying you are more likely to beat a man with haymakers than to beat him if you think a real life opponent will behave anything like this:

Again, I don't think aikido is useless as a whole(for fighting), just as commonly trained. Real people don't run at you chin first with their arms permanently outstretched. If that's how you train, thats what your mind and body are conditioned to.My money would be on the haymaker guy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That may be my fault giving that impression keeping mentioning Kotegaeshi

In the following clip, one wrong assumption has been made. When A grabs on B's wrist, A should have a plan. The moment that B tries to deal with A's wrist grab, A should move to his next step. In other words, when A grabs on B, A is 1 step ahead of B. To assume that B can counter A before A can execute his plan can be unrealistic.

 

[Martial D]

Someone recently posted a video (Drop Bear, I think) that showed a kotegaeshi done in a fight by an Aikidoka. They do work, though they aren't as prone to breaking things as they feel like in practice. Some joint throws have a pretty high potential for destruction, though, if the person being thrown doesn't give in to them. We have one that's taught as a throw, but really isn't - the breakfall is actually an escape from the lock, so it would be unlikely to end as a throw "on the street".

That's just it, I've seen what can happen when you give a guy that knows/understands timing and distance some aikido. It's a very rare bird(at least evidence wise) just as it is with Wing Chun.

It just doesn't matter what you train. If you don't do it realistically, the end result will reflect that.

 

[now disabled]

I'm saying you are more likely to beat a man with haymakers than to beat him if you think a real life opponent will behave anything like this:

Again, I don't think aikido is useless as a whole(for fighting), just as commonly trained. Real people don't run at you chin first with their arms permanently outstretched. If that's how you train, thats what your mind and body are conditioned to.My money would be on the haymaker guy.

if your meaning that wasn't a street fight then yup

that was a demo

I really don't know what is gonna satisfy you lol you want a mass brawl or to see a cage fight with an Aikidoka (that I doubt will ever happen).

I think no matter what is shown your still gonna shoot holes and say your way best

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It just doesn't matter what you train. If you don't do it realistically, the end result will reflect that.

Agree! To assume that A grabs on B's wrist without a "plan" is unrealistic.

Here is an example. When A grabs on B's wrist, A's "plan" is to

- guide B's arm away from A's entering path,
- so A can reach to B's head.

There will be no time for B to react. No matter what B may try to counter, A already release that wrist grab and moves to the head.

 

[now disabled]

That's just it, I've seen what can happen when you give a guy that knows/understands timing and distance some aikido. It's a very rare bird(at least evidence wise) just as it is with Wing Chun.

It just doesn't matter what you train. If you don't do it realistically, the end result will reflect that.

Umm he did put the guy down it wasn't classic but the wrist tech worked

 

[now disabled]

In the following clip, one wrong assumption has been made. When A grabs on B's wrist, A should have a plan. The moment that B tries to deal with A's wrist grab, A should move to his next step. In other words, when A grabs on B, A is 1 step ahead of B. To assume that B can counter A before A can execute his plan can be unrealistic.

That is a demo lol and purely that

 

[pdg]

I see your point and it's interesting. But wouldn't it be dangerous to try to apply techniques to persons who don't know how to receive them?
I mean, one advantage of applying Aikido techniques to Aikido people is that they can use their ukemi skills in order to avoid injury.
Many people think that ukemi is like falling on your own but it's not. Ukemi waza is an escape technique, meaning that you fall (only after feeling the real effect of the technique)in order to avoid broken bones, joint dislocations and other injuries... So in that sense, I can apply full force Aikido techniques because I know that the Uke can take it.
Now, if I tried to do that to a Karate guy for instance, he could strike fast and strong but would he be able to take the effect of my technique without getting injured? That would make me hold back on my technique rendering the whole practice fake in my opinion...

Well, that really depends on how much you've bought into the "lethal moves" myth and how much control you have.

Power is nothing without control, and if you can't control it then you have no business practicing it. You might as well just carry a hammer and be done.

I can kick through (at least) a 4" concrete block - I can kick a person with the same technique at the same speed but with control and while they know they've been tagged it probably won't leave a mark.

That's not because they've magically trained their bones or skull to not fracture...

That's why it's called sparring and not just fighting.

If you can't stop (or at least seriously reduce) a technique at any point during it's application you choose, then imo you don't fully know that technique.

This is also where partners that are too compliant (or only resist in the right way) lead to false confidence in the moves and perpetuate the myth.

If someone gets told "if you don't react in this certain way then this move will break your wrist" then they'll react in that way. They'll resist as they're instructed for fear of damage.

But what if someone knows how to resist differently and can shut down that move every single time? What if they actually analyse it and come up with a better working defence? They get told they're not doing it right...

So, the only danger involved is from someone being so used to a certain reaction from "someone who knows how to receive" getting frustrated at their move suddenly not working and losing control.

Let's say a wrist lock - if I'm in a wrist lock and don't comply, it has the potential to seriously damage my wrist.

And if I choose to not let it get applied?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is a demo lol and purely that

Are there any Aikido clips that show

- A grabs on B's wrist.
- B tries to do something.
- A releases his wrist grab and does something else (such as a punch to B's face)?

Why don't we see any Aikido clip like this?

 

[Martial D]

if your meaning that wasn't a street fight then yup

that was a demo

I really don't know what is gonna satisfy you lol you want a mass brawl or to see a cage fight with an Aikidoka (that I doubt will ever happen).

I think no matter what is shown your still gonna shoot holes and say your way best

So, you are going to ignore what I actually said and instead make some predictions as if you know the first thing about me? Righto then.

You are right about the cage fight thing though, even though everything in the aikido syllabus is legal in there. You won't see it because it doesn't work.

 

[pdg]

Well, that really depends on how much you've bought into the "lethal moves" myth and how much control you have.

Power is nothing without control, and if you can't control it then you have no business practicing it. You might as well just carry a hammer and be done.

I can kick through (at least) a 4" concrete block - I can kick a person with the same technique at the same speed but with control and while they know they've been tagged it probably won't leave a mark.

That's not because they've magically trained their bones or skull to not fracture...

That's why it's called sparring and not just fighting.

If you can't stop (or at least seriously reduce) a technique at any point during it's application you choose, then imo you don't fully know that technique.

This is also where partners that are too compliant (or only resist in the right way) lead to false confidence in the moves and perpetuate the myth.

If someone gets told "if you don't react in this certain way then this move will break your wrist" then they'll react in that way. They'll resist as they're instructed for fear of damage.

But what if someone knows how to resist differently and can shut down that move every single time? What if they actually analyse it and come up with a better working defence? They get told they're not doing it right...

So, the only danger involved is from someone being so used to a certain reaction from "someone who knows how to receive" getting frustrated at their move suddenly not working and losing control.

Let's say a wrist lock - if I'm in a wrist lock and don't comply, it has the potential to seriously damage my wrist.

And if I choose to not let it get applied?

By the way, I'm not singling out any specific art in this - I've personally had someone tell me that I wasn't doing it right because the punch I used 'live' was different to how it was drilled so they couldn't defend against it...