Aikido against a boxer

[Dirty Dog]

I'm curious DD, do you use wristlock throws, too?

Sure. You don't really see the feet-over-head demo stuff, but the guy tonight landed on a bed about 3 feet from where he started.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok, so first off I feel I have to explain the concept of sparring...

It's not about win or lose, it's not about which art is better - it's about working together to find your own way.

My last sparring night, probably 10 partners - did I win? Did I lose? Nobody kept score... Because it's not about winning or losing.

Now to the 'no need to train with a boxer' - ok, if you say so.

I do TKD and I do kickboxing. In the kickboxing group there are a few that came from a pure boxing background.

I can go up against a taekwondoin "doing boxing moves" and not feel challenged at all. What they're doing looks like boxing moves and I can say my defences work against boxing.

Now I do the same against one of the boxing guys and what happens? I get hit much more. It's totally different.

Now get a kickboxer to "do TKD moves". Another kickboxer defends and says what they do works against TKD. Then they use those defences against me and get kicked in the head. It's totally different.

So, I can sharpen my TKD against other taekwondoin as much as I like, but until I go against someone with actual skill in another art there's really no way I can say if it will work.

I can say that it should work in theory, because the shape looks similar.

In this, I'm not 'blaming' the art, but my interpretation of it. And that I can't develop my interpretation without live testing.


And I haven't studied aikido, I have very little exposure to it. But there are parts of it that look superficially very similar to certain applications of some TKD techniques - I'd like to work with someone who has actually studied these things so that I can develop my own interpretation.

Excellent post. Working against taekwondoin (wow, that's hard to type) acting like boxers is good for practicing stuff you've found worked against actual boxers - because those taekwondoin are handy to train with. Still gotta get back and test from time to time against the boxers to find out if the training results are what you wanted. Now, once you work that out, you can teach those boxer-decapitating moves to other taekwondoin in TKD classes, using just taekwondoin, and probably get some reasonable results, because you know what you're doing. The next generation probably can't, though - they'll need to go back and work with boxers so they truly understand the whats and whys of your approach.

Unfortunately, in many cases that either skips the whole idea of working with actual proponents of the system in question, or it goes several generations without visiting back to that concept. Then we get a bunch of taekwondoin (or NGAikidoka) who have learned very well something that's not quite what it used to be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure. You don't really see the feet-over-head demo stuff, but the guy tonight landed on a bed about 3 feet from where he started.

Nice. I asked because when I talk to folks, I find use of locks and shoulder takedowns a lot, but less use of wristy throws. I suspect that's because they've missed the control necessary to get to those.

 

[now disabled]

The challenge isn't putting full force into the application, but having a partner who tries to stop you from applying. There's no technique I know of that cannot be countered if you see it coming. A good Aikidoka should be as effective at stopping Aikido techniques from being performed on them as they are at doing Aikido technqiues. Actually, they should be better at counters, because they're easier to do.

Oh I agree with you if you know what is coming then countering isn't necessarily problematic

I meant by going at full force leaving out the big circle and going for the smaller circle and the speed at which it done. No Aikido tech should really involve putting force into it using speed tech and the ukes force if that makes sense as if the nage tries to use force he will tighten up force the tech not reallt be using the uke and ultimately fail

just my opinion tho

 

[now disabled]

It's the only way imo.

Let's say I take a few TKD moves and do them by the book - hooking block, low hook kick, elbow, low block. Against one person I'd be relying on them being at the right range, at the right time or nothing works.

Now let's ignore the book application (blocks might not be blocks, strikes might not be strikes) and dig a bit, do them quickly enough so it's pretty much one fluid movement.

Another person could look at that and give it a name...

Say, hip throw.

But wait, a hip throw "isn't TKD"...

I get your thinking possibly are you saying that by working with say Aikido guys you could tweak moves you already know and expand them further for example using your ability to strike effectively and follow it up with a throw and possible pin ? or again use your strikes and follow up with say a choke ? then yes if that is your thinking it would work ... personally if you want to do that tho I'd look for guys that are from Daito ryu they may be more ummm likely to accommodate as many Aikidoka can be somewhat well I shall not say but you get the drift lol

 

[now disabled]

I've just noticed I've blended some threads

I'd like to do more reinterpretation of application in class.

Rigidly sticking to the dogma of "move A is for situation Y" is an issue in a lot of TMA training.

Style (aikido) against style (boxing) is worthwhile.


Oh, and there's no such thing as MMA - it's all just TKD/WC/karate/judo/aikido done a bit differently

lol

ummm but don't class Aikido as TMA as it isn't ...it may have grown from that but it itself is not .....Boxing well I dunno as different periods and timescales are used there to classify lol

sorry just winding ya up lol

 

[now disabled]

Someone recently posted a video (Drop Bear, I think) that showed a kotegaeshi done in a fight by an Aikidoka. They do work, though they aren't as prone to breaking things as they feel like in practice. Some joint throws have a pretty high potential for destruction, though, if the person being thrown doesn't give in to them. We have one that's taught as a throw, but really isn't - the breakfall is actually an escape from the lock, so it would be unlikely to end as a throw "on the street".

Kotegaeshi isn't necessarily a throw it can be made to look like one and it often is when big flowing circles are used but it don't need to be.

I watched the vid and the guy took him down thankfully he didn't follow up with the full pin

yeah I know what you mean the wrist can take more than you think it can but one thing is sure it does hurt like hell if it done properly.

The elbow techs in my opinion are the ones in training you have to be careful with as they can be badly damaged

 

[pdg]

I get your thinking possibly are you saying that by working with say Aikido guys you could tweak moves you already know and expand them further for example using your ability to strike effectively and follow it up with a throw and possible pin ? or again use your strikes and follow up with say a choke ? then yes if that is your thinking it would work ... personally if you want to do that tho I'd look for guys that are from Daito ryu they may be more ummm likely to accommodate as many Aikidoka can be somewhat well I shall not say but you get the drift lol

Yes, kind of like that.

But, I don't view TKD as a purely striking art in the first place - everything is in there if you care to dig deep enough and think outside the dogmatic box...

The problem is, I can't really work on much of this with my fellow students "because it's not TKD", and I imagine that as soon as I mention it to most practitioners of other arts it's instantly taken as an art vs art challenge and that I'm trying to prove something.

 

[now disabled]

Counters are resistance. Resistance does not mean the same thing as tension. Resistance is the thing you need in your training, and relaxation and counters are part of how we resist aiki techniques. As is controlling our weight transfers and keeping center and structure. Have your partner do those things and find out what causes problems. That's training with resistance.

well pointed out

resistance does not necessarily mean force (strength etc) and a smart uke can if the nage not totally on the ball return the tech and that is how it should be (well not at complete beginner but def by the time they reach 3rd/4th kyu ) as it provides a wake up call not to be sloppy and or your not doing it properly. My fav for that is actually kotegaeshi (yes that one again ) as if they get the tech wrong it easy to return it or if they pull you to far around ya land one square on their chin ...that usually gets the message thru

 

[now disabled]

Yes, kind of like that.

But, I don't view TKD as a purely striking art in the first place - everything is in there if you care to dig deep enough and think outside the dogmatic box...

The problem is, I can't really work on much of this with my fellow students "because it's not TKD", and I imagine that as soon as I mention it to most practitioners of other arts it's instantly taken as an art vs art challenge and that I'm trying to prove something.

I get that totally.

Really there should be no challenge as arts can learn from the other and in a way it can be looked upon as you improving yourself on your path in the search for more (part of the DO concept ?)

 

[now disabled]

Yes, kind of like that.

But, I don't view TKD as a purely striking art in the first place - everything is in there if you care to dig deep enough and think outside the dogmatic box...

The problem is, I can't really work on much of this with my fellow students "because it's not TKD", and I imagine that as soon as I mention it to most practitioners of other arts it's instantly taken as an art vs art challenge and that I'm trying to prove something.

The biggest thing I would say (just my opinion) is to get the TKD guys to relax and flow if that makes sense and to try and use the opponents power or dynamics against them (dunno if that makes sense)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh I agree with you if you know what is coming then countering isn't necessarily problematic

I meant by going at full force leaving out the big circle and going for the smaller circle and the speed at which it done. No Aikido tech should really involve putting force into it using speed tech and the ukes force if that makes sense as if the nage tries to use force he will tighten up force the tech not reallt be using the uke and ultimately fail

just my opinion tho

Something I've learned about aiki techniques is that you can, in fact, add strength and force to them. If you add it wrong, they fail. If you add it right, they work some places where they won't work without it - on those edges where pure flow doesn't make the technique quite available. Watch some videos of Shioda's technique in his younger days (I'm guessing early 30's), and you'll see him dropping full bodyweight into some technqiues with great effect. Anyplace bodyweight works, the right direction of strength can also work, but takes more effort.

 

[now disabled]

An easy solution is a bit of cross-training with friends from other arts. If 5% of Aikidoka did this, and sparred while doing so, then brought the information they gained back to their personal Aikido training, that would reverse the trend. It might take only the same 2 generations.

The real problem faced there is actually convincing people to do that and in effect almost pointing out to them that it is and always was part of Aikido I wouldn't say it was lost it just rarely taught and some will start yelling that it is not part of the training and not taught as they have this ingrained thing that Aikido is all peace and love

 

[Gerry Seymour]

lol

ummm but don't class Aikido as TMA as it isn't ...it may have grown from that but it itself is not .....Boxing well I dunno as different periods and timescales are used there to classify lol

sorry just winding ya up lol

That gets back to the whole question of what's "traditional". Aikido definitely fits my usage of that term. Basically, to me, any art that has "the X way" of doing things (that excludes stuff because it's just not correct to the art) is "traditional". I teach a specific round kick. If a student joins with a different round kick at a functional level, I don't teach them mine unless they want it. All I need is them to have a functional round kick. If they become instructors and want to teach the TKD or Muay Thai kick they brought in, that's fine. But most NGA instructors would disagree - they'd say "That's not the NGA round kick, and they need to learn the right one for testing." So, I'd classify NGA as "traditional", though it's arguably newer than Ueshiba's Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kotegaeshi isn't necessarily a throw it can be made to look like one and it often is when big flowing circles are used but it don't need to be.

I watched the vid and the guy took him down thankfully he didn't follow up with the full pin

yeah I know what you mean the wrist can take more than you think it can but one thing is sure it does hurt like hell if it done properly.

The elbow techs in my opinion are the ones in training you have to be careful with as they can be badly damaged

Agreed. Any full lock has potential for destruction. Those that use a rotational lock (as elbow locks will) are the worst. If I overextend a kotegaeshi (as we do it, a bit less "outside" than is typical in Aikido), there's little real risk, because we're really talking about "pulls" or small tears, not destruction. If we turn it out (where it gets crossed up with our "Peel Off"), the elbow and even the shoulder can be exposed, and it's more likely to cause damage.

 

[now disabled]

Something I've learned about aiki techniques is that you can, in fact, add strength and force to them. If you add it wrong, they fail. If you add it right, they work some places where they won't work without it - on those edges where pure flow doesn't make the technique quite available. Watch some videos of Shioda's technique in his younger days (I'm guessing early 30's), and you'll see him dropping full bodyweight into some technqiues with great effect. Anyplace bodyweight works, the right direction of strength can also work, but takes more effort.

Oh sir you have just revealed yourself lol you can see the nuances and the where to and that takes years of training and you are right

Yes Shioda was one of the best the interesting thing is that although he set up his own style he never really broke from Ueshiba as his 10th dan was awarded to him by Ueshiba and that was after the Yoshinkan was well set up ... That should say something unfortunately it normally glossed over

 

[now disabled]

That gets back to the whole question of what's "traditional". Aikido definitely fits my usage of that term. Basically, to me, any art that has "the X way" of doing things (that excludes stuff because it's just not correct to the art) is "traditional". I teach a specific round kick. If a student joins with a different round kick at a functional level, I don't teach them mine unless they want it. All I need is them to have a functional round kick. If they become instructors and want to teach the TKD or Muay Thai kick they brought in, that's fine. But most NGA instructors would disagree - they'd say "That's not the NGA round kick, and they need to learn the right one for testing." So, I'd classify NGA as "traditional", though it's arguably newer than Ueshiba's Aikido.

A but I would add that you are being adaptable in that if they have a thing why dismantle it if it works that t me is counter productive

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well pointed out

resistance does not necessarily mean force (strength etc) and a smart uke can if the nage not totally on the ball return the tech and that is how it should be (well not at complete beginner but def by the time they reach 3rd/4th kyu ) as it provides a wake up call not to be sloppy and or your not doing it properly. My fav for that is actually kotegaeshi (yes that one again ) as if they get the tech wrong it easy to return it or if they pull you to far around ya land one square on their chin ...that usually gets the message thru

I like that. I'll add that it doesn't require nage to do anything wrong. I'm pretty good at recognizing/feeling what is exposed, and taking it away (in the realm of the techniques I know). I actually teach this to students - they are tested on it every next test (so kotegaeshi is tested at yellow belt, and the counter is tested at blue). I think it's that important. I only require they demonstrate one effective counter, and it's to the technique's form (think of how Daito-ryu teaches techniques) rather than the application, but it builds a base for recognizing and thwarting techniques. Real skill comes in recognizing what's available, and that includes recognizing when someone counters a technique so you can move to whatever they've just made available.

 

[now disabled]

Agreed. Any full lock has potential for destruction. Those that use a rotational lock (as elbow locks will) are the worst. If I overextend a kotegaeshi (as we do it, a bit less "outside" than is typical in Aikido), there's little real risk, because we're really talking about "pulls" or small tears, not destruction. If we turn it out (where it gets crossed up with our "Peel Off"), the elbow and even the shoulder can be exposed, and it's more likely to cause damage.

I follow you

I'd explain it my way as diff between big and small circles and the diff between making it look good and being effective in real time

 

[pdg]

lol

ummm but don't class Aikido as TMA as it isn't ...it may have grown from that but it itself is not .....Boxing well I dunno as different periods and timescales are used there to classify lol

sorry just winding ya up lol

The definition of the word can only ever be that view of the definer...

An analogy, I'll use houses...

Around here, some of the oldest houses are wood framed with knapped flint and chalk infils and thatched roofs.

Newer ones dispense with the wooden frame.

Yet newer get slate roofs.

From say the early to mid 1900s brick and engineered blockwork took over, as you get more recent you find more and more that it's a blockwork shell with stud walls (plasterboard (sheetrock?) over a wooden or metal).

Go ask a mortgage company for a loan, one of the questions is "is it traditional construction?" - and this is where you discover that lime render and thatch aren't traditional...