Affirmative action, yes or no?

[yorkshirelad]

You're not responsible for the poor and uninsured who become sick either, but don't you want to live in a country that takes care of such people? Similarly, wouldn't you want to live in a country that attempts to address the woes of other groups?

No, I left the UK and the NHS to live here. The health care is alot better here believe me, my Mum has had colon cancer for over 20 years. They detected it early, but because she was in the NHS system she was put on a waiting list for her colostomy operation. Her cancer spread and she is in a bad way. Just last year she got a staff infection from the hospital. God bless American health care. If I ever think that I can't afford my health insurance, i'll just get rid of cable tv.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Indeed...she's underqualified in the technical arena. But it did make a big difference with the female students,.

If ever you need an operation, let's say a heart transplant. Make sure you ask for the surgeon who was hire through affirmative action. The guy might be underqualified in the technical arena, but it sure will be good for your moral. :rofl:

 

[Empty Hands]

If I ever think that I can't afford my health insurance, i'll just get rid of cable tv.

The average cost of a single person health plan is $4700 per year - and that's what they charge companies on group plans. Individual plans can be significantly higher, or even unobtainable with preexisting conditions.

Extended basic digital cable costs about $600 per year. So, good luck with that.

 

[elder999]

Him I would hire. Not you though. That facial hair makes you unqualified, irrespective of skin color. :lol:

Ahh, but the wife loves it, and I only get to wear it for a brief portion of the year (respirator fit requirements, and all that....)

Go on though, hire the little blue-eyed devil! :lfao:

Oh, and:

And I'll pose a question-or two-here, for anyone to answer: what do you suppose his (Bill Cosby's) views are on Affirmative Action? What do you suppose the views of Dr. Martin Luther King were?

 

[arnisador]

If ever you need an operation, let's say a heart transplant. Make sure you ask for the surgeon who was hire through affirmative action. The guy might be underqualified in the technical arena, but it sure will be good for your moral.

I didn't say I'd have made the same choice, or that it would be reasonable in every field. In this case I think she's insufficiently qualified, whereas AA is usually among the fully qualified. I am saying that the AA situation isn't nearly as one-sided as people think. There are benefits and costs.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The average cost of a single person health plan is $4700 per year - and that's what they charge companies on group plans. Individual plans can be significantly higher, or even unobtainable with preexisting conditions.

Extended basic digital cable costs about $600 per year. So, good luck with that.

it costs me $240 per month for health insurance. It cost me $155 per month for cable, including HBO and Showtime(I'm addicted to the Tudors and Big Love and can't wait for Dexter). My wife and I watch about 8 PPV movies per month, that's $30. Then there are PPV event UFC/Boxing about $60 per month. That adds up to abou $245 per month.

In England at school, in 10th grade (5th form for the Brits) we can do work experience. For 2 weeks we shadow a professional in a job of our choosing. I went to work with a social worker called Ann. I thought the job would be enlightening.
One day we went to a house in Gipton. The reason we went was because the school the kids of the house went to complained to social services that the children were turning up to school without a school uniform and looking unkempt.
Ann gave me an overcoat and told me never to take it off in the house.
The garden was a disgrace. A rusted Ford Escort filled the space, the car was on bricks and the thing was covered with grafitti. The whole place smelled like *****.
We went through the front door and the smell hit me. There were kids running naked, there was dog crap on the floor and I sat on the couch and noticed a dirty nappy (diaper) sticking out of the cushion. Ann asked if it was ok that I was there, the woman of the house just didn't care
I've forgotten what the woman of the house was called, but she told us that because they were on the dole they couldn't afford school uniforms. Ann was visibly peeved and told them that it was unacceptible, she pretty much barked at them to buy the kids uniforms. I felt bad and later asked why she behaved that way.
She told me that whenever she goes to a house such as this, she always looks for toys; tvs stereo equipment, video game consoles. She told me that anyone who has these has no excuse to not give their child the necessities that they need and I agree. I don't mind helping the helpless, but I hate helping the clueless.

If you can't get health insurance or don't have the means to get educated, then join the reserves. You'll get up to $20000 enlistment bonus, GI Montgonery Bill, a trade up to $20000 for school and you will qualify for Tricare. Why not earn it that way.

 

[Empty Hands]

it costs me $240 per month for health insurance.

That's what you pay (now) but that's not what it costs.

If you can't get health insurance or don't have the means to get educated, then join the reserves.

They won't take just anyone you know. Not even now.

 

[arnisador]

That's what you pay (now) but that's not what it costs.

Yeah, the employer and employee combined pay in the ballpark of $6-8K per person or $10-14K per family (very round numbers, varying from employer to employer, health care company to health care company, and state to state).

 

[yorkshirelad]

They won't take just anyone you know. Not even now.

I did say, "I don't mind helping the helpless". My thought is if your in good health, and you can't afford healthcare, join the reserves. Even if you don't have a high school diploma, they will take you as long as you stayed in school through the 9th Grade. Then they enroll you in GED+ and give you another grand EVEN NOW. Just make sure you're not a criminal, then you're screwed. I don't want my taxes paying for the healthcare of stupid people. The helpless, disabled and children, yes, but not everyone.

Back to the thread, when it comes to AA, to discriminate in order to stop discrimination is kinda stupid, don't you think?

 

[Big Don]

It really is this simple:
It is impossible to tell a good person from a bad one by looking at them.
Attempting to is foolish.
Claiming one is better than the other on looks alone: STUPID.

 

[Sukerkin]

I can't rep you for your excellent post #118 above, Arni, so please accept this embarassingly public commendation instead .

Given your working environment, I can well understand why you hold the position you do on this issue. We will never agree on the matter but I respect that your view is founded on well considered and practical ground :tup:.

 

[Sukerkin]

It really is this simple:
It is impossible to tell a good person from a bad one by looking at them.
Attempting to is foolish.
Claiming one is better than the other on looks alone: STUPID.

I think this is part of the problem that AA is attempting to address in that those who conduct job interviews make their mind up whether to hire or not within seconds of laying eyes on someone. All the shillyshallying about with questions and tests is window dressing.

I can see the sense in trying to ameliorate that effect, because even non-knowingly-racist people will tend to want to hire people similar to themselves. But I dispute it's effectiveness (in a non-academic context) and object to the explicit inherent mechanism that for one to 'rise' then another must 'fall'.

 

[Sukerkin]

In respone to Elder's invitation to investigate what Martin Luther King would think of Affirmative Action, I did a little digging in that vast information pot that is the Web.

The answer I have found so far was a surprise to me, I confess, as I thought that the point Elder was making was that Dr. King would not be in favour of AA:

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/mlk3.html

http://academic.udayton.edu/Race/04needs/affirm25.htm

http://www.opposingviews.com/arguments/dr-martin-luther-king-would-have-supported-affirmative-action

Now I haven't finished looking yet but, unless there is a huge conspiracy to hide it from me, every link I've tracked to date suggests that the inspiring doctor would have supported AA - whether he would support it in it's current form we can't say but the concept certainly.

 

[elder999]

I can see the sense in trying to ameliorate that effect, because even non-knowingly-racist people will tend to want to hire people similar to themselves. But I dispute it's effectiveness (in a non-academic context) and object to the explicit inherent mechanism that for one to 'rise' then another must 'fall'.

See, I just don't know that it actually ever "hurts" anyone. I also don't know that it helps,but in the absence of anything else, I don't know that it's actually a problem. On the other hand, I do know that there are people out there who would not hire the "most qualified person" because of the color of their skin. Just as Empty Hands wouldn't hire me because of my moustache, and just as I once removed someone from consideration for their body odor. All those things are discriminatory, just as "qualifications" are. There are objective points to the hiring process, just as there are completely subjective ones-I tend to think that some forms of AA minimize the likelihood of race, gender or handicap being a subjective basis. I think other forms are to address past inequities. How much they actually do so is questionable-how much harm they actually do is also questionable.

 

[elder999]

, every link I've tracked to date suggests that the inspiring doctor would have supported AA - whether he would support it in it's current form we can't say but the concept certainly.

Dr. King definitely supported AA. THere's a tendency among certain conservatives to trot out his "judged by the content of his character" quote, but the fact is that Dr. King was progressive to the point of embracing socialism, if not an outright communist. The other fact is that, in terms of addressing 400 years of oppression of the "Negro," as he'd have put it, he was in favor of all manner of redress,espcially including what would come to be called "Affirmative Action,"and well beyond it up to reparations for slavery in the form of land-grants and cash payments.

Bill Cosby hasn't said anything publicly against AA either-there is a tendency in conservative circles to embrace his "don't be a victim" philosophy, and make a leap in logic to that being anti-AA, when, in fact, his only public statements on that particular subject were to criticize Clarence Thomas's point of view. In an interview with Larry King shortly after one of those well-publicized speeches (that I almost fully agree with) he repeatedly pointed out that Clarence Thomas "got help", and "now he doesn't want to help anybody."

 

[Sukerkin]

I found the links I followed very interesting reading, I must say and it refreshed in my mind how little was done by the state to help the freed slaves make their way in the world.

It does make you wonder how different the USA would be now if, say, each freed slave had been given enough land to have a viable farm of their own. Of course, that ignores all the already 'free' blacks that were in the North, so maybe, as well as being a pipe-dream, that is wishful thinking .

As to AA, have there been any 'proper' studies done on it's actual effectiveness? Or what those who have 'benefitted' from it feel about it?

EDIT: at the bottom of the page on this link that I already posted:

http://academic.udayton.edu/Race/04needs/affirm25.htm

there are a great number of links to related articles that make for thought inducing reading.

 

[elder999]

As to AA, have there been any 'proper' studies done on it's actual effectiveness? Or what those who have 'benefitted' from it feel about it?

I don't know that there have been any proper studies, though I imagine there are probably some out there. I do know that Clarence Thomas acknowledges that he "benefitted" from it-and very publicly resents it.

I know that I've more than once considered starting yet another business to benefit from federal efforts to contract with minority and woman owned businesses, but just don't really have the time, or the need to simply get more money because I'd be "first in line," so to speak.

I'd guess that some programs are effective, and others just waste money. "Affirmative Action" covers a great deal of territory beyond race and jobs, and some of them needed and continue to need the attention that it brings, like handicap accessibilty in the work place. Others, effective or not, cause resentment in some people-whether they benefit from it or, for some reason, feel slighted by it.

And now, on to other business:

that study?
you want the cold hard truth about that study?
the cold, hard truth is that when employers see Lakisa or Jamal, they KNOW, from past experience that there is a HIGH chance they are getting someone with a lousy work ethic, that will get confrontational and get in your face. Someone who will do a lousy job then threaten to sue if you get on thier ***.
thats the bed the modern "angry black" mentality has created that the good ones get to lie in
it isnt my fault, it isnt the employers fault.
the CULTURE is creating the problems.
there is a reason cops stop blacks, because blacks commit more crimes. There is a reason taxi's wont stop for blacks in NYC, cuz the drivers have been robbed BY BLACKS too many times.
you may think these opinions are racist, but they are also true, from the viewpoint of the employer, the cop, or the taxi driver. I know this because 5 years ago, i was the manager of a Dairy Queen here in town.

I think those opinions are racist, because they are.

Tellner's right: at least you're consistent. Please, don't ever change....:lol:

That may be so, but black society's worries are largely self created. If you are refering to the "whole" of black society, then you have to concede that Black society as a whole has been infiltrated with the meme of victimhood. When you have leaders like Sharpton and Jackson screaming entitlements and Blacks marching to protest the killing of a rapist and cop killer in Oakland there is something wrong. When you have a hip hop/rap culture that is violent and demeaning to women and the faces of these 'artistes' by and large are black, there is something wrong. the change has to come from within the community.

I found the links I followed very interesting reading, I must say and it refreshed in my mind how little was done by the state to help the freed slaves make their way in the world.

These posts bring up several interesting points. I don't know that anyone could address them all, but I'll try.

First off, one has to recognize that almost all of what is called "black culture" is a creation of or response to "mainstream culture" in America-I won't call it "white culture," but I probably could. All of those "largely self-created worries" that Yorkshirelad speaks of are simply not largely self-created; they are largely the product of generations of slavery.

When international slave trade was shut down, it engendered in the south of the country several changes in the attitude towards slaves, and the way they were treated. Over just a few short generations, the idea of family and fatherhood were completely wiped out-why form such attachments at all, if they were merely the product of forced breeding? Why form such attachments at all, if your family could be parted by sale at a moments notice? Why form such attachments at all, if your mate could be carrying your owner's child, and subject to his rape at a whim? Why form such attachments at all, if your mate's child might not be your own? When the slaves were "set free," they were set free with a culture that had a deep disrespect and mistrust of authority, a widespread lack of of fatherhood or family values, and an sustained ethic of having to hustle-to conceal and sometimes steal to simply get by. There were, of course, other values, but these are the negative traits that we see and criticize even today: a romanticization of crime. A tendency to not father children-but to sire many, perhaps. Fact is, if you aren't parented-you won't know how. If you didn't have a father, you won't know how to be one yourself.If you look to the black people that are held up as successes-what Twin Fist might call "the good ones," you'll almost invariably see that they indeed did have both parents in the house-not always, but very often: Bill Cosby and Dr. King both immediately come to mind. And individuals do overcome these cultural patterns: the unfathered do become good fathers, very often by force of will, and for the fact of not wanting someone else to miss what they had.

When one listens to the braggadoccio, swagger and glorification of crime in "rap music," they're not hearing anything new. This is important, inasmuch as the history of ALL "American" music is, in fact, the history of "black music." In fact, with a few notable exceptions like Aaron Copeland, American music is black music. In any case, if we look to the past, blues songs and even older slave songs have always glorified stealing and hustling, and putting one over on the "massa," and songs like "Stag 'O Lee," which was based on actual events that took place near the end of the 19th century, have always glorified men of violence.Rap music, with its sexual braggadocio and glorification of crime, is just a continuation of expressions of aspects of a culture that have always been there.These aspects, of course, run contrary to any "meme of victimhood," though I'll concede that such a meme might exist. They are, rather, the products of an ingrained mistrust of authority, and the notion that unless one does for oneself: rights wrongs by whatever means available, even violent ones, or steals, or sells drugs-no other means are available to attain anything. Generations of injustice-of simply knowing that if one approached the authorities to redress grievances, those grievances would not be heard-often led to men who have no respect for law, and take the law into their own hands, or completely disregard it.

These things cannot be addressed by "Affirmative Action." Nor are they "largely self created." And, while they can, on occasion, be addressed by an act of individual will, you're right that they have to be addressed from within the community, but they truly cannot be solved by a community that largely lacks the means to address them, and has since its inception, hundreds of years ago.

 

[arnisador]

As to the point about effectiveness...I don't know. I wish there was a definite study about its impact. It's a lot of effort, and causes (disproportionate) resentment, and it'd be nice to know how much good it's doing. I've seen clear benefits of it and also costs. In my niche--education--I'm confident it has net value. Overall...I wish I could be more sure it was being beneficial. I do believe it helps more than it hurts, but quantification would be great.

 

[yorkshirelad]

When international slave trade was shut down, it engendered in the south of the country several changes in the attitude towards slaves, and the way they were treated. Over just a few short generations, the idea of family and fatherhood were completely wiped out-why form such attachments at all, if they were merely the product of forced breeding? Why form such attachments at all, if your family could be parted by sale at a moments notice? Why form such attachments at all, if your mate could be carrying your owner's child, and subject to his rape at a whim? Why form such attachments at all, if your mate's child might not be your own? When the slaves were "set free," they were set free with a culture that had a deep disrespect and mistrust of authority, a widespread lack of of fatherhood or family values, and an sustained ethic of having to hustle-to conceal and sometimes steal to simply get by. There were, of course, other values, but these are the negative traits that we see and criticize even today: a romanticization of crime. A tendency to not father children-but to sire many, perhaps. Fact is, if you aren't parented-you won't know how. If you didn't have a father, you won't know how to be one yourself.If you look to the black people that are held up as successes-what Twin Fist might call "the good ones," you'll almost invariably see that they indeed did have both parents in the house-not always, but very often: Bill Cosby and Dr. King both immediately come to mind. And individuals do overcome these cultural patterns: the unfathered do become good fathers, very often by force of will, and for the fact of not wanting someone else to miss what they had.

So what you are saying is that it is not the fault of black culture that the black community on average is doing, shall we say less well than the white community, because of the effects of slavery. Isn't slavery traditionally African. I mean, hasn't slavery been entrenched in African culture since the beginnings of civilization. Isn't slavery STILL predominant in various African nations.
I believe you will find that most here, my family in particular were the product of slavery. Why else would my family have moved from the Spanish Mediteranean to Ireland.
Up until just a few generations ago, like I said before, my ancestors were working the lands for British nobility and were i all intents and purposes owned. In the nineteenth century the women were able to be 'taken' by these self same land owners. My birth father's brothers were interned by the British in the 70s for the simple reason of being Irish Catholics.
What I am saying is that every nation of people who came to America have at some time being persecuted. Look at all the Jewish holocaust survivors who came here just 6 decades ago.
You asking us to believe that black culture is stupid because they don't understand the difference between the times of slavery and the present day. I don't believe this. America is a meritocracy, we all know that. There are countless examples of decent, hardworking black people that should be an inspiration to the community and proof that with HARD WORK and TENACITY anything is possible. It's just unfortunate that we have idiots like Sharpton and Jackson who think its correct to defend every gangbanger who shoots someone and claim racial prejudice.

 

[Sukerkin]

Aye, a pertinent point.