Affirmative action, yes or no?

[elder999]

So what you are saying is that it is not the fault of black culture that the black community on average is doing, shall we say less well than the white community, because of the effects of slavery.

No, what I'm saying is that there ingrained cultural patterns that are a direct result of generations of slavery-and a type of slavery that developed distinctly and separately in the U.S.

Isn't slavery traditionally African. I mean, hasn't slavery been entrenched in African culture since the beginnings of civilization. Isn't slavery STILL predominant in various African nations.

Again, the form of slavery as it developed in the U.S. was vastly different-as for what's predominant in various African nations, well, that's not really what we're talking about here, is it?

I mean, they're still killing people for witchcraft in Nigeria.

I believe you will find that most here, my family in particular were the product of slavery. Why else would my family have moved from the Spanish Mediteranean to Ireland.
Up until just a few generations ago, like I said before, my ancestors were working the lands for British nobility and were i all intents and purposes owned. In the nineteenth century the women were able to be 'taken' by these self same land owners. My birth father's brothers were interned by the British in the 70s for the simple reason of being Irish Catholics.

I too, am the descendant of slaves-shipped to this country as cargo, before it even was the United States. In my case, though, as in some others, there was a vehicle for them to buy their freedom, which they did-if not, perhaps my name would be Slocum, which was the name of the man who owned them, instead of "Cuffee," which was the first name of their father, my great-great-great-great-great grandfather. There was also a system in place that permitted slaves to own property, earn money, become educated, and keep their families intact. Slave life was vastly different in early colonial times. After the abolition of international slave trade in 1807 and 1808, and with the devlopment of large plantations in the south-where slavery remained legal and what industry and agriculture there were were largely dependent upon it-slavery became an institution where these things gradually disintigrated: slaves were treated as livestock, not permitted any education outside of trades, not permitted to own property, and families were kept intact-and, more often, broken up-at the whim of the slaves owners.

What I am saying is that every nation of people who came to America have at some time being persecuted. Look at all the Jewish holocaust survivors who came here just 6 decades ago.

Most of whom largely were not forcibly brought here as cargo, and forced to live under conditions that were not conducive to developing familial bonds or any sort of bonds with some sense of permanence.

You asking us to believe that black culture is stupid because they don't understand the difference between the times of slavery and the present day.

No. I don't think "black culture is stupid" at all-more often than not, I'll confine the criticism of stupidity to the acts and words of certain individuals.

I'm also not saying that "they don't understand the difference between the present and slavery. What I am saying is, just as you are Catholic because your father, grand father and great grandfather, and his father and grandfatther before him were Catholic, and just as I will go sailing, and whether I am on the sea in my real boat, or just putzing around on Abiquiu or Heron Lake on my Hobie cat, sing the songs and say the prayers that my father, grandfather, great grandfather and his father and grandfather before him sang and prayed when they sailed, many in "black culture" practice the type of "fatherhood" and lifestyle that has been part of their culture-such as was allowed-for just as long.

Those things, of course, have all evolved. The Catholic church no longer burns witches and heretics. I don't necessarily believe, any more than my father, grandfather and great-grandfather did, that I'm summoning the wind with my songs and prayers-well, maybe great grandfather Nathan did believe that. :lol: Blacks are no longer actual "slaves," but that slave mentality still persists-fathers feel no real bonds to their families, women-all too often, girls, actually-have no expectation that men will stay in their lives, and the pervasive attitude is one that says the system is out to diminish you, that the "meritocracy of America" is not yours, and that the only way to attain what you want is by operating in the margins. All too often, elements of this are just as true for your "hardworking black people."

I don't believe this. America is a meritocracy, we all know that. There are countless examples of decent, hardworking black people that should be an inspiration to the community and proof that with HARD WORK and TENACITY anything is possible.

Sadly, while a great deal-sometimes seemingly anything-is possible with hard work and tenacity, all too often it's not. More to the point, if you read about some criminals, you'll often find that hard work and tenacity are exactly what was applied to their field-a perverted application of America's so-called "meritocracy," but an application nonetheless. And, since there are only about 41 miillion people who identify as "black" in the U.S., and their demographics are the subject of much study and classification, one can hardly say that there are "countless" hardworking black people-they have, in fact, been counted.:lol:

It's just unfortunate that we have idiots like Sharpton and Jackson who think its correct to defend every gangbanger who shoots someone and claim racial prejudice.

Sharpton and Jackson are hardly idiots. They know their target demographic much better than you, and they tell them what they want to hear. As much as Jesse Jackson supported rather than condemn what Bill Cosby said, he also has a target audience whose support he needs, and he tells them what he believes they want to hear.

You and I, of course, view these things from outside of them, but there can't be any understanding at all without grasping just how deeply ingrained some of these things can be. When you criticize "gansgsta rap" you're just criticizing something that has always been here, and has changed only to the extent that the entire culture-all of America-has changed, and reflects that change: electronic technology and drugs, for example-the other things, the braggadocio, the criminal intent, even the violence towards women, things that you've called "stupid" , have been there for more than a century, for those who were willing to listen.

Stagger Lee Shelton:

'Could be on a rainy mornin'
could be on a rainy night
Stagger Lee and Billy de Lyon, had a great big fight
Talkin' bout de bad man-bad man-cruel ol' Stagger Lee.

 

[Sukerkin]

This is a real danger of inducting thread drift and it's not fair to expect Elder to speak for Black Culture (TM) as he's just one man but why is it that it is the black segment of American society that thinks (however subliminally) it merits special treatment rather than any other?

I know that's a hugely broad brush to use and that it may well be that the 'voice' that we hear prominently comes from those members of that group who may not believe what they say but reckon to turn an easy dollar (or an easy excuse) from it. I also know that I not only have not been in their shoes but have not even (other than briefly) been in their country, which probably makes my views a touch naive.

Taking the completeness of my understanding of the situation as partial (at best), is it just the closeness of the enslavement that causes it's persistent presence in the "We're owed" argument? Or is it that it is a learned response because that is what is fed by the media and well meaning spokespeople?

YL laid out quite well that many other races and classes suffered 'slavery' just as badly as the African's that were sold to the international slavers by their indiginous slavers. It has been quite a while since my own family was last in servitude but we were (ironically that is why I have a tinge of 'noble' blood in me; I'm sure you can imagine how that got there).

The point I'm flapping about and not making very well is that we don't feel a need to explain a lack of success because of our background, let alone our race. We accept that life isn't fair and try as best we can to work with the system to get somewhere. We have been just as oppressed by the Man and until just as recently too e.g. even in the early twentieth century, as a working class man, you had to be over thirty and own or rent a house to vote.

 

[elder999]

It's also important to point out that the "end of slavery" was not necessarily the end of slavery. In much of the country, the same sort of paradigms were perpetuated-right into my lifetime.

What were those court cases in the 50's and 60's, the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts. and all that marching about, after all?

 

[Sukerkin]

Oh aye, I recognise that ending slavery does not end the implicit social stratification that devolves from it :tup:.

What I was attempting to say in the horribly limiting format of the text only interface that the same unfair and in cases horrific oppressions have been visited on many (if not most) races and peoples over the course of history.

 

[Twin Fist]

I think those opinions are racist, because they are.

Tellner's right: at least you're consistent. Please, don't ever change....:lol:

think about what you just said.
You ought to feel dirty even saying it.

Look dude, I know how it sounds, and lord knows i wish it wasnt true,but it IS. Hell, i WISH i was racist, it is easier when you can just slap labels on people. Sadly, I cant let myself do that.

but facts, as they say, are facts.

Lakisha and jamal suffer from too many of their cousins trying to "keep it real" and "standing up to the man" and all that other ********. Taxi drivers dont WANT to pass up fairs, but they do want to pass on getting robbed, and they all know who is more lilely to rob them

so they are racist?

when iwas running that dairy queen, i went out of my way to hire black kids, cuz i know this town, not many people WOULD hire them. In every case, I got nothing for it. No work, bad attitudes, late all the time, and when i would try to talk to them, and tell them why this was wrong, I got threatened. I got ignored. I would overhear them talking about how they had no interest in anything a white man had to say.

same thing with cops. They KNOW who is doing crimes. no police officer WANTS to out of his way to set himself up for a profiling charge.

pffft

and I know what I am. and racist isnt it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Looping us back around, it sounds to me that such experiences or perceptions are why the overwhelming majority in the poll stand against AA.

We can all accept, I think, that our 'contact' with the notion of Affirmative Action or voluntary employment of 'minorities' (I keep putting that in single quotes 'cos I really don't like the word) is limited. But if we add our experiences together we must get something close to a realistic picture, surely?

I would hope so anyhow because "collective experience" is what is otherwise termed "History".

One additional thing to note, as I've mentioned in passing in other threads, is that the attitudes prevelent in the media about the coloured population of America have crossed via that media to Britain such that we now have a generation of young black men, a significant (or at least highly visible portion) of which act for all the world as if their father worked with a lash on his back in cotton fields and whose response is to be gun-toting drug dealers and pimps.

Appealing to collective guilt of ancestors of one race to forgive the transgressions or failings of those of another who live in the present is not acceptable. Which is why, in the end, for all that I can have sympathy with the rationale's given both in this thread and in the articles I have read, I shall not be changing my 'vote'.

Sadly, of course, all our hot emotions and empassioned discourse won't change a whit .

 

[yorkshirelad]

I'm also not saying that "they don't understand the difference between the present and slavery. What I am saying is, just as you are Catholic because your father, grand father and great grandfather, and his father and grandfatther before him were Catholic, and just as I will go sailing, and whether I am on the sea in my real boat, or just putzing around on Abiquiu or Heron Lake on my Hobie cat, sing the songs and say the prayers that my father, grandfather, great grandfather and his father and grandfather before him sang and prayed when they sailed, many in "black culture" practice the type of "fatherhood" and lifestyle that has been part of their culture-such as was allowed-for just as long.

I suppose I should start being an ignorant drunkard and wife beater because that fits the stereotype of the Irish Catholic navi, and because that was the behaviour of my father, grandfather ect. Noone can blame me, it's the fault of my ancestry and 'the Man' for keeping my people down. My wife will be none too pleased.

 

[elder999]

One additional thing to note, as I've mentioned in passing in other threads, is that the attitudes prevelent in the media about the coloured population of America have crossed via that media to Britain such that we now have a generation of young black men, a significant (or at least highly visible portion) of which act for all the world as if their father worked with a lash on his back in cotton fields and whose response is to be gun-toting drug dealers and pimps..

In the first place, we have a significant portion of young black men over here, who basically have had no father at all, and act like it.That was part of my point.

On the other hand, if we look at the demographics-outstanding successes like Oprah Winfrey, black astronauts and a black president aside, the median income for blacks in the U.S. is roughly $33k/yr-not bad, but the median income for whites is about $54k/yr in comparison. Nearly 25% of blacks live below the poverty level. I point these things out not to "*****," but actually to show what a great deal of progress has been made in some quarters-a large portion of the black community is comfortably middle class today.

Or, at least they were until the economy tanked.

In any case, such things have existed to a degree all along. There have almost always been black communities-in some cases entire towns-and black people built their own churches and schools where they had to-in many cases in the south, and in some cases in the not so south. And, the fact is that ever since 1865, freed slaves and their descendents have managed to rise past some of the ingrained cultural patterns of slavery..

Of course, in some cases, those "black towns" were burned to the ground, as in the Rosewood massacre of 1923.

But hey, America's a meritocracy right? Life is soooo unfair.

On the other hand:

think about what you just said.
You ought to feel dirty even saying it.

Look dude, I know how it sounds<snip!>

and I know what I am..

Well, I'll commend your deleted efforts at outreach-really.

You ever wonder why they didn't succeed, though? What was behind that attitude?

On the other hand, I don't feel dirty, and the majority of what you say, denials notwithstanding, is racist. Whites commit a great deal of crime as well, and you don't hear a thing about white people being pulled over just because they're driving a Mercedes-which isn't to say that it doesn't happen, just that the justification for it in one case is, no matter how you color it, racist.....and I meant what I said, please, don't ever change.

And, I'm sorry, names like "Jamal" are a sorry attempt at recovering the culture that was stolen from them. Is it really fair, though, to judge a person simply by the name that their mother gave them? Of course, it's no different than not hiring a person because of their hair, or body odor, or obesity, or obnoxious laugh, or simply becuse they're a jerk: completely discriminatory and subjective, and independent of "qualifications." Life is sooo unfair.

I suppose I should start being an ignorant drunkard and wife beater because that fits the stereotype of the Irish Catholic navi, and because that was the behaviour of my father, grandfather ect. Noone can blame me, it's the fault of my ancestry and 'the Man' for keeping my people down. My wife will be none too pleased.

You know, I talk about people who weren't "kept down" in spite of the best efforts of some, and I say (in keeping with the original topic) that the problems that you mentioned can't be addressed by "Affirmative Action."

Then, in an attempt at reasoned discourse, I offer reasons for those cultural patterns, and some of the history behind them. I don't offer "excuses"-very often, as
in TF's story, such behavior is inexcusable- but, rather, possible root causes-ones that are, btw, supported by history, sociological and anthropological studies.

In any case, you demonstrate quite well that attempts at reasoned discourse are a complete waste of time with some people.

Once again, from the Merriam Webster's Online English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary" ):

1stu·pid Pronunciation: \&#712;stü-p&#601;d, &#712;styü-\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus, from stup&#275;re to be numb, be astonished &#8212; more at type Date: 1541 1 a: slow of mind : obtuse b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c: lacking intelligence or reason : brutish2: dulled in feeling or sensation : torpid <still stupid from the sedative>3: marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : senseless <a stupid decision>4 a: lacking interest or point <a stupid event> b: vexatious, exasperating <the stupid car won't start>
&#8212; stu·pid·ly adverb
&#8212; stu·pid·ness noun

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"

 

[Twin Fist]

Whatever jeff. You want to say it isnt fair that you get looked at twice by cops? dont blame the cops, blame the 100's of THOUSANDS of your bretheren that steadfastly REFUSE to operate within the system.

trust me, i KNOW life isnt fair, but I am trying to BETTER my life, instead of just bitching about how bad I got it, like most of the people i grew up around do.

I know why those kids refused to listen to me. "you need to work harder" isnt as easy to tell themselves as "whitey is holding me down"

too many of them think of micheal vinck as a hero and none of them consider clarence thomas or bill cosby one....or even someone like you

and I dont need to change. White folks HAVE changed, we elected that idiot Obama BECAUSE he was black.

we are not the problem

 

[elder999]

Whatever jeff. You want to say it isnt fair that you get looked at twice by cops? dont blame the cops, blame the 100's of THOUSANDS of your bretheren that steadfastly REFUSE to operate within the system.

I don't blame anyone. I just equipped all my vehicles with digital recorders, and, in the cars, digital pencil cams. They're on every time I get pulled over-have been since....well, for a long time-at least the last seven years, because that's how long we've been married, and Rita (that's the wife) thought I was paranoid, until we got pulled over. I've been in this skin, well, all my life, and I'm used to it-used to being looked at by lots of people for lots of reasons.

And, while I know enough of the smartest people in the world to know I'm not one of them, I also know (or, at least, think) that I'm generally smarter than just about everyone else. What you hear from me isn't that "life is soooo unfair, what I'm generally saying is "I have got the edge."

I'm more than content with my lot-been pulled over for speeds at over 90 or 100 mph, and gotten out of those tickets-or had them reduced, because my family has a long, long history ofknowing how to work the system the way that it's supposed to be worked , and I've got time, practice and technology on my side.

Plus, speeding is about the worst thing I do, criminally speaking.

trust me, i KNOW life isnt fair, but I am trying to BETTER my life, instead of just bitching about how bad I got it, like most of the people i grew up around do.

I know that-it's one of the things I like about you-I meant it:don't ever change.

Just because I disagree with you about your viewpoint, and think it's racist, doesn't mean for a minute that I think you're a bad person. Like I said, I commend your efforts at outreach in hiring those kids-I know what it took for you to do that-hell, I wouldn't have done it: I grew up in an all-white neighborhood in Westchester County, for chrissakes,IBM country, and my dad grew up in Fairfield, Conn. in a house that sold for a little less than $3 mill last time it was on the market, and we both went to pretty exclusive schools, where there were just not a lot of people like us-my Dad was the first and only "person of color" to go to Fairfield Prep for a long, long time. Heck, I went to school with Kuwaiti princes (and others), who looked down on me not because of the color of my skin, or because I wasn't a Muslim, but because I was "merely upper-upper middle class." With a background like that, it should be no surprise that in a lot of ways, a lot of black people scare the crap out of me-I'm not angry about anything, and my life hasn't been anything I'd call "hard," except for some health issues when I was a kid, and the fact that I can't play basketball worth a damn, in spite of my height and my race. Life is soooo unfair! :lol:

In any case, if I'm ever in your part of Texas, I'll probably be driving the pickup truck, and I hope we can have a beer and some real Texas barbecue-brisket!
(Though I don't have much hope of it being a "real" beer. What is with Texas and the Budweiser, anyway???!!! :lol

If you're ever in New Mexico, I'll take you for a ride in the Porsche-or one of the oldies-there's a few stretches here where we can get pretty well past 150 mph, and I don't ask just anyone to go on the "death ride." It's not like I want to make everybody scream, just a select few now and againAfter, we'll have some real "Cuffee" barbecue: bison brisket!

And homemade ale, or one (or more!) of my wines.......

(Hell, I break bread with my first wife's family all the time-and I don't think they come much more racist than New York Italians, anywhere...:lol

I know why those kids refused to listen to me. "you need to work harder" isnt as easy to tell themselves as "whitey is holding me down"

They didn't know any better. They didn't have the tools to listen, or even hear you-never mind the desire. No one had told them. I'd never have hired them (and I've had lots, and lots, and lots of jobs where I might have had to) and wouldn't have hesitated to fire them on the spot-then again, as a boss, I'm an excellent dictator. I really do commend you for trying, though....

too many of them think of micheal vinck as a hero and none of them consider clarence thomas or bill cosby one....or even someone like you

Odds are good that they didn't know who Thomas or Bill were-never mind me-I'm almost completely atypical, and something of a secret, in a lot of ways..there really just aren't too many "like me", white, black, red, yellow, or any colors in between.....as for Michael Vick, I'll point out again that admiration for that sort of behavior-downright thuggery- is an ingrained part of aspects of "black culture" that aren't new, but have existed for literally more than a hundred years, and are renewed and reglorified by many in sports and entertainment, sadly.

and I dont need to change. White folks HAVE changed, we elected that idiot Obama BECAUSE he was black.

we are not the problem

No, you're not "the problem," and I'm not asking you-individually or collectively-to change.But you (collectively and historically) had a hand in creating the problem. I don't think for a minute that you can or should have to solve it-I think that's largely done on an individual basis, not a widespread one-every time a basically fatherless child decides that he will be there for his child, a little bit of the problem is resolved. You usually don't get a Bill Cosby (friend of my dad's,BTW) without a William Henry Cosby, Sr. You don't get a Clarence Thomas-who grew up impoverished (unlike Bill, who was merely lower-middle class) and without a father, who left when he was 2-without his grandfather Myers Anderson. You don't even get Tiger Woods without Earl Woods. Sure, many people manage quite well without fathers, but I'm talking about something basic and endemic to black culture-something that Bill Cosby was really, really trying to address with the speeches that so many people commended without listening to the words:

Ladies and gentlemen, these people set, they opened the doors, they gave us the right, and today, ladies and gentlemen, in our cities and public schools we have fifty percent drop out. In our own neighborhood, we have men in prison. No longer is a person embarrassed because they&#8217;re pregnant without a husband. (clapping) No longer is a boy considered an embarrassment if he tries to run away from being the father of the unmarried child (clapping)​

Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic and lower middle economic people are [not*] holding their end in this deal. In the neighborhood that most of us grew up in, parenting is not going on. (clapping)​

I&#8217;m talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was two? (clapping) Where were you when he was twelve? (clapping) Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don&#8217;t know he had a pistol? (clapping) And where is his father, and why don&#8217;t you know where he is? And why doesn&#8217;t the father show up to talk to this boy? -Bill Cosby, at the 50th anniversary commemoration of Brown v. Board of Education (the SCOTUS decision that said "separate is not equal.")​

I think this thread demonstrates an almost universal lack of understanding of those problems, though-and a complete refusal on the part of some to even try.

Life is sooo unfair.

And we didn't elect Obama because he was black-we elected Obama because 8 years of Bush really, really, really sucked. :lol:

 

[Twin Fist]

naw, for BBQ, i would only give you a Shiner Bock.

It's real beer, and made in texas too. yummy stuff.

 

[elder999]

naw, for BBQ, i would only give you a Shiner Bock.

It's real beer, and made in texas too. yummy stuff.

Shiner Bock is....okay,, but only okay. Come out this way, and we'll have some microbrew that'll turn you into a liberal.:lol:

The brisket, though, is not nearly as good as in Texas. Even mine, sad to say.....we just cut down a cherry tree, though, so we'll have some extra special beef and bison smoking for a year or two.....

 

[mook jong man]

Elder this is off topic , but when I saw your picture with your boy.
I thought you reminded me of some actor or musician but I can't quite think who it is.
Has anyone told you that before?

 

[yorkshirelad]

I think this thread demonstrates an almost universal lack of understanding of those problems, though-and a complete refusal on the part of some to even try.
Life is sooo unfair.

Everybody understands that black people have been enslaved, it is drumed into us at every turn. What you fail to even consider is that EVERY culture has been oppressed at some time or other. The Irish came to America and were treated like ****. They fought and created their own opportunities. Everything you have said about people needing fathers is correct. The only way we can solve this imbalance is for young black men to take responsibility for their actions. AA just gives minorities the impression that there is something to get pissed about.
When Obama was running for the office of President, he gave a speech in which he told young black men to take responsibility for their children. Jesse Jackson, who was about to be interview and didn't realize his mike was on, told the guy next to him that when he hears Obama speak like that he wants to "cut his nuts off". It's a shame that leaders like Sharpton and Jackson profit from the victimhood of blacks and continue preaching the meme. Maybe , now we have Obama things will change and young black people will see what is truly possible for any race, with a good work ethic.

 

[Big Don]

I don't blame anyone.

No, you may not, but affirmative action isn't about blaming anyone, it is about penalizing people based on their race. That is racism, and it is wrong.

And we didn't elect Obama because he was black

That's a shame, because that is all he ran on...

 

[Bruno@MT]

That's a shame, because that is all he ran on...

No it's not. He ran primarily on dissatisfaction with the republicans.
Bush's approval ratings were in the toilet, and McCain-Palin would have been more of the same.

Palin was a media disaster, and McCain's age gave her an actual shot at the presidency. President Palin scared a lot of people because of her extremism on most issues and her failure to answer even basic questions on global politics.

Then the economy went 'BOOM' right after MCCain said that the economy was strong and fine.

And throughout the campaign, it was primarily the republican team that fought dirty in the media, which backfired with a lot of people when it became obvious that that was all they had.

Then there was the fact that Obama is an intelligent man and gifted speaker.

I understand that you will never ever approve of anything any democrat will do, but to say that Obama's campaign ran solely on blackness is to deny reality. At least give credit where it is due. The republicans f-ed up big time, which is why it was a landslide for Obama.


EDIT: Btw, on topic: affirmative action sucks.

 

[elder999]

Elder this is off topic , but when I saw your picture with your boy.
I thought you reminded me of some actor or musician but I can't quite think who it is.
Has anyone told you that before?

I get that all the time-at dinner just this past Thursday night, even, with the table across from me insisting that I was "that guy." I'm not about to go there, though-maybe you'll figure it out.

No, you may not, but affirmative action isn't about blaming anyone, it is about penalizing people based on their race. That is racism, and it is wrong.

By your account then, it's also about "penalizing" people based on their gender, and their ability to see and walk, and their not having served their country in the armed services-all of these people, and more, receive preferential treament-literally called "preference points"-due to "Affirmative Action."

More to the point, though, if the handicapped,vets, women and underrepresented minorities receive preference points in hiring, how is it that anyone is "penalized?" I still don't get that-I get that preferences are discriminatory, and, in the case of racial ones, might even be considered "racist." There are, in many situations, as has been pointed out, other considerations in hiring besides "qualifications," like body odor, obesity, hairstyle, speech patterns, general grooming, interpersonal relations-I once had a job interview that consisted of several parts, one of which was having lunch with the team-who basically just spent lunch trying to rattle me to see how I'd "fit in." I had another interview where the interviewer asked me a technical question that I practically invented, and knew I answered correctly then tell me that no, I was wrong-and proceed to explain the correct answer I'd just given, a real "that's what I said" moment, when I knew I wasn't getting the job-(Terry, the worm, had already made his selection, and was just going through the motions-but I got a decent lunch out of it...)
Life is soooo unfair!

Anyway, how is anyone "penalized?"

That's a shame, because that is all he ran on...

Actually, Don, Obama's a lot like you: you both run on hot air. :lol:

 

[JDenver]

Folks can do as they please, but I thought I'd point out that this is starting to really talk in circles.

I do see how some say AA is unfair, but I find that I have to dig deep inside myself and suspend my understanding of the still prevalent racism, sexism, and subjectivity in hiring practice which always tilts everything towards heterosexual white men. I also have to forget that AA doesn't mean hiring unqualified people.

When I do these things I see the counter arguments against AA, but it's a bit of work.

 

[Twin Fist]

this is off topic, but everything I quoted is exactly WRONG, in fact, it is 100% wrong. And not just factually wrong, but so wrong it sounds deluded.

No it's not. He ran primarily on dissatisfaction with the republicans.
Bush's approval ratings were in the toilet, and McCain-Palin would have been more of the same.

Palin was a media disaster, and McCain's age gave her an actual shot at the presidency. President Palin scared a lot of people because of her extremism on most issues and her failure to answer even basic questions on global politics.

Then the economy went 'BOOM' right after MCCain said that the economy was strong and fine.

And throughout the campaign, it was primarily the republican team that fought dirty in the media, which backfired with a lot of people when it became obvious that that was all they had.

Then there was the fact that Obama is an intelligent man and gifted speaker.

I understand that you will never ever approve of anything any democrat will do, but to say that Obama's campaign ran solely on blackness is to deny reality. At least give credit where it is due. The republicans f-ed up big time, which is why it was a landslide for Obama.

 

[JDenver]

this is off topic, but everything I quoted is exactly WRONG, in fact, it is 100% wrong. And not just factually wrong, but so wrong it sounds deluded.

There's a slightly off-putting attack in here -

BUT I also gotta say that the wording of this really made me laugh TF! It's true too you know, we figure there's no room for grey areas, it's THIS or it's THAT.