Understanding the ethics of ranking up

[geezer]

I guess I'm the only guy here to found his own style and promote himself, and give himself a prestigious title. And I ain't sorry!

My core art is Wing Chun and I received my rank in that the traditional way from my old Chinese sifu. In addition, I studied PMAS Combat Escrima under Rene Latosa in the 1980's, earned "Instructor" rank, and ran the local club here in Phoenix for a while. I think I still have the certificate in a drawer somewhere. Since then I have trained with some other people, especially the DTE (Direct Torres Eskrima) guys. The head of DTE suggested that I form my own group, "Heck just do your own thing and call it Steve's Escrima" he said. Eventually I actually did that. Except we called our group PCE (Practical Combat Escrima) keeping the "Combat Escrima" name to honor my first teacher, GM Latosa.

As head of this new organization, I selected a prestigious location for our school: Indian School Park (hey, it's free), got flashy uniforms: A club T-shirt that you can wear with your sweats or gym shorts, a curriculum (OK I did work really hard on that, expanding upon the old PMAS material I previously used) and, best of all an important title for me. After a little thought, I picked the title of some of the guys I've respected the most in my life, namely coach.

Oh, almost forgot, as we expanded and I became the head escrima dude for the NVTO (the Ving Tsun association I belong to) we printed up nice certificates for student grades. But I never got around to making up one for me. Why bother. Somewhere in a drawer I've still got that old one from Rene Latosa. Besides GM Rene always said "Certificates are just pieces of paper. And it's not who you trained with, or your title, it's what you can do that matters." Still, I really like the title of coach and I'm sticking with it!

BTW, when I can afford it, I still try to further my training with guys like GM Rene Latosa, Maestro Martin Torres, Jeff LaTorre... and some other great guys. And since in our FMA we don't use belts, if I ever get good enough to promote myself again to ...er, I dunno, something like super head-honcho coach, I don't have to buy some kind of expensive embroidered belt!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am glad I posted this question. It is great to see the diversity of opinions on the ethics of ranking up. From everything I am reading, there seems to be no easy solution. In the end someone will not be fan of whatever route you have taken. It's a shame , no matter what you do in that situation, you will be a villain, in someone's eyes.

I disagree. I may not want to follow the path of self-promotion or whatever, but I do not see anyone who does so as a villain; I thought I went out of my way to make that clear. My choices apply to me, no one else. People are free to do as they wish, and I'm not going to call them names or disrespect them for doing so. My tolerance for people who do not follow my path does not imply that I approve of theirs, nor does it imply that I do not approve. It merely means it is not my choice. I do not have to like something to accept it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

an important title for me. After a little thought, I picked the title of some of the guys I've respected the most in my life, namely coach.

Still, I really like the title of coach and I'm sticking with it!

At my gym we usually go by first names, but "coach" is the one title that I don't mind being addressed as. It doesn't carry any connotations that I'm the toughest or most knowledgeable - just that I can help other people on their personal path to becoming better martial artists.

Except we called our group PCE (Practical Combat Escrima) keeping the "Combat Escrima" name to honor my first teacher, GM Latosa.

Hmm ... I may need to do some branding if I ever open my own Jiu-Jitsu school. How about "ICC" - Impractical Combat Cuddling.

 

[Buka]

I've been called a lot of things over the years (whoa!) depending on where I was teaching and how whoever in charge wanted the students to address those teaching. But for the last twenty years I'm only addressed as coach. As one dojo owner friend of mine says, "Yeah, but it's with a capital C....because he's an old fart."

 

[Azulx]

I disagree. I may not want to follow the path of self-promotion or whatever, but I do not see anyone who does so as a villain; I thought I went out of my way to make that clear. My choices apply to me, no one else. People are free to do as they wish, and I'm not going to call them names or disrespect them for doing so. My tolerance for people who do not follow my path does not imply that I approve of theirs, nor does it imply that I do not approve. It merely means it is not my choice. I do not have to like something to accept it.

My post was not directed at anyone specifically it was a general statement. You made it clear that you did not see someone who takes the path self-promotion, as a villain. That being said, that logic does not apply to everyone who has read this post or will read the post.

 

[lklawson]

At my gym we usually go by first names, but "coach" is the one title that I don't mind being addressed as. It doesn't carry any connotations that I'm the toughest or most knowledgeable - just that I can help other people on their personal path to becoming better martial artists.

I hate being called Sensei at Judo. Too much baggage. I tried to get people to call me "coach" until someone up the food chain (whom I respect) reminded me that "Coach" is an official USJA Designation. <sigh>

Now I just make sure that everyone coming in knows "Sensei" only means "teacher" or "instructor" and, in Japan, the First Grade Teacher who looks like she should be getting ready for Prom instead of teaching, is still called "Sensei" by her students. That usually manages to communicate the concept.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I hate being called Sensei at Judo. Too much baggage. I tried to get people to call me "coach" until someone up the food chain (whom I respect) reminded me that "Coach" is an official USJA Designation. <sigh>

Now I just make sure that everyone coming in knows "Sensei" only means "teacher" or "instructor" and, in Japan, the First Grade Teacher who looks like she should be getting ready for Prom instead of teaching, is still called "Sensei" by her students. That usually manages to communicate the concept.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

There is also 'senpai' if you don't care for 'sensei'.

 

[lklawson]

There is also 'senpai' if you don't care for 'sensei'.

But then I'd have to explain the whole Senpai/Kohai relationship. I really wish I could get "Mr. Lawson" to stick. Sometimes I can get them to stick with "Sir," which works just fine for me.

Several years back now, I stopped in at a TSD school, just so see what's what. I hadn't practiced TSD in decades and I guess I was wanting to take a trip down memory lane. The dojang was empty when I went in so I spent time looking at the photos on the wall. I recognized a few of the folks, including Stephen Wall, who I trained under back when I was living in Flint. I didn't expect that. Anyway, eventually some dude came out wearing a black belt and a dobok. I stuck my hand out, smiled, and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk." He too my hand, and with a very serious look, replied, "I'm Sabum." Feh. He ain't my Sabum. His "rank" was too danged important to him to give me his name. Not even a Rank+Name. Just rank. pft. He asked me what I was looking for and I told him I was just looking and walked out.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But then I'd have to explain the whole Senpai/Kohai relationship. I really wish I could get "Mr. Lawson" to stick. Sometimes I can get them to stick with "Sir," which works just fine for me.

Several years back now, I stopped in at a TSD school, just so see what's what. I hadn't practiced TSD in decades and I guess I was wanting to take a trip down memory lane. The dojang was empty when I went in so I spent time looking at the photos on the wall. I recognized a few of the folks, including Stephen Wall, who I trained under back when I was living in Flint. I didn't expect that. Anyway, eventually some dude came out wearing a black belt and a dobok. I stuck my hand out, smiled, and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk." He too my hand, and with a very serious look, replied, "I'm Sabum." Feh. He ain't my Sabum. His "rank" was too danged important to him to give me his name. Not even a Rank+Name. Just rank. pft. He asked me what I was looking for and I told him I was just looking and walked out.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Honcho, El Jefe, Bossman, The Big Cheese, Dear Leader, I'm sure you can find something.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Several years back now, I stopped in at a TSD school, just so see what's what. I hadn't practiced TSD in decades and I guess I was wanting to take a trip down memory lane. The dojang was empty when I went in so I spent time looking at the photos on the wall. I recognized a few of the folks, including Stephen Wall, who I trained under back when I was living in Flint. I didn't expect that. Anyway, eventually some dude came out wearing a black belt and a dobok. I stuck my hand out, smiled, and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk." He too my hand, and with a very serious look, replied, "I'm Sabum." Feh. He ain't my Sabum. His "rank" was too danged important to him to give me his name. Not even a Rank+Name. Just rank. pft. He asked me what I was looking for and I told him I was just looking and walked out.

Nice of him to give early warning that his school isn't anywhere you would want to train.

I've run into a number of egotists in the martial arts over the years. Probably a few who would introduce themselves as "Sifu So-and-so" or the like. I don't think I've ever met someone who only introduced himself by title and didn't even include a name.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Nice of him to give early warning that his school isn't anywhere you would want to train.

I've run into a number of egotists in the martial arts over the years. Probably a few who would introduce themselves as "Sifu So-and-so" or the like. I don't think I've ever met someone who only introduced himself by title and didn't even include a name.

Maybe that was his name? OK, probably not.

 

[pgsmith]

I have the folks in the dojo call me Paul. Saves me a lot of headache as well as creating a less formal atmosphere.
I remember meeting a guy in the bar at a sword event a number of years back that introduced himself to me as "master (name here)". Of course I had to make a Dr. Who joke about it, but he obviously wasn't a fan since he didn't get it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Several years back now, I stopped in at a TSD school, just so see what's what. I hadn't practiced TSD in decades and I guess I was wanting to take a trip down memory lane. The dojang was empty when I went in so I spent time looking at the photos on the wall. I recognized a few of the folks, including Stephen Wall, who I trained under back when I was living in Flint. I didn't expect that. Anyway, eventually some dude came out wearing a black belt and a dobok. I stuck my hand out, smiled, and said, "Hi, I'm Kirk." He too my hand, and with a very serious look, replied, "I'm Sabum." Feh. He ain't my Sabum. His "rank" was too danged important to him to give me his name. Not even a Rank+Name. Just rank. pft. He asked me what I was looking for and I told him I was just looking and walked out.

At least he used the title right. I've seen a few people add the honorific -nim when speaking of themselves. That's a huge nono.

 

[lklawson]

I have the folks in the dojo call me Paul. Saves me a lot of headache as well as creating a less formal atmosphere.

Well, that guy up the food chain from me was insistent that I should allow and encourage the use of Sensei because, in his words, "it just means 'teacher' and you've earned it by teaching." OK. I still have to remind the adults after class that, now class is over, I'm just "Kirk." I've given up with the kids. I guess it makes it easier for them. But sometimes I'll see one of the kids out in public and they'll yell, "Hey Sensei!!!" and I won't even hear it. I'm not Sensei, I'm Kirk. She Who Must Be Obeyed will nudge me and say, "they're yelling at you." hahahahaha

I remember meeting a guy in the bar at a sword event a number of years back that introduced himself to me as "master (name here)". Of course I had to make a Dr. Who joke about it, but he obviously wasn't a fan since he didn't get it.

hahaha Funny. A JSA specific event or something more broad?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How about Maestro? That has a nice ring to it.

 

[lklawson]

At least he used the title right. I've seen a few people add the honorific -nim when speaking of themselves. That's a huge nono.

Feh. He might as well have called himself "Grand Poo-Bah."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

How about Maestro? That has a nice ring to it.

It does. But I also run in the Western Martial Arts circles and that rank has a very specific meaning and some very talented swordsmen tend to take exception to someone using it without having earned it.

In the old days, I could have called myself "Professor," particularly due to the the pugilism which I sometimes teach. But some FMA's are now using "Professor" and my friends in academia also get persnickity.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just call me Bill...the Magnificent.

 

[pgsmith]

Well, that guy up the food chain from me was insistent that I should allow and encourage the use of Sensei because, in his words, "it just means 'teacher' and you've earned it by teaching." OK.

I understand that. I used to be in the same boat until I changed arts. Now I can get away with it since I don't have an official teaching license in Mugai ryu, so we're just a study group.

hahaha Funny. A JSA specific event or something more broad?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

JSA specific. It was at one of Bob Elder's East Coast Tai Kai in Orlando.

 

[Azulx]

At least he used the title right. I've seen a few people add the honorific -nim when speaking of themselves. That's a huge nono.

What is the difference between Sabum and Sabumnim?