A kata/form tip for beginning students

[yak sao]

i try never to say that anyone else's training is wrong..though i do have opinions that i sometimes express based on goals and purposes.
when i started my training i learned Taikyoku Shodan kata. it was learned as a pattern. it had no depth beyond the sequence of step, block, punch. it was only an exercise in memory, something to be memorized. then the next form and the next and the next. at some point i remember thinking that these forms have to have more to it. there is something i am missing here. as time progressed i began to dig into kata like an archaeologist. i find great depth of meaning in forms now. it is something that keeps me interested in the art, always learning more, finding something new.

i am not saying my way is correct and others are wrong,, i am only sharing my view.

The kata are not the system...the system is in the kata.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The kata are not the system...the system is in the kata.

But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.

 

[yak sao]

But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.

My point exactly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But a good designed set of forms (Kata) should contain all the important principles in the system.

If that's the purpose of the kata.

 

[Bruce7]

This applies only if you are a student of a martial art form that practices kata, forms, or something resembling that.

The tip is, don't stop practicing an old kata just because you've moved on to learning a new one. In many schools, and definitely where I train, knowing all the katas that have been taught is required.

More than once, I've asked a student what kata they are working on, they tell me X and I tell them to do Y kata, one they had done one or two belt promotions previously. The dropped jaws and blank stares are priceless.

The kata are taught for a reason, and it's not like algebra which you will never use again in your life once you've passed the course (well, I didn't anyway). The kata contain within them techniques which are obvious and explained (usually) and many more which you will have to become much more proficient as a martial artist to understand or 'see', and eventually, techniques will appear which no one taught you, you simply began to see them as being there. The techniques were always there; you are what changed.

But you will miss all that if you learn kata A, then move on to kata B and never come back to practice A again.

Agree on the Kata, Forms.

Strongly Disagree on the Algebra.
As a Well Control Instructor for Wild Well the largest Oil Well Fighting Company in the world, I have been told by new students every week, "I wish I would have paid attention to my Algebra teacher." The students would tell me they were wrong when they told their math teacher, "I will never use math in real life."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agree on the Kata, Forms.

Strongly Disagree on the Algebra.
As a Well Control Instructor for Wild Well the largest Oil Well Fighting Company in the world, I have been told by new students every week, "I wish I would have paid attention to my Algebra teacher." The students would tell me they were wrong when they told their math teacher, "I will never use math in real life."

I use algebra, geometry, and trigonometry on a regular basis. If nowhere else, I use them on home repair and woodworking projects. The concepts (not the actual math) also help when thinking about approaches and openings in my MA musings.

 

[pdg]

I use algebra, geometry, and trigonometry on a regular basis. If nowhere else, I use them on home repair and woodworking projects. The concepts (not the actual math) also help when thinking about approaches and openings in my MA musings.

It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).

Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...

Home repair is something to get a man in for.

I used to work in IT in the financial sector - a good 90+% of the admin staff would be utterly stumped if the computer didn't provide the answer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).

Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...

Home repair is something to get a man in for.

I used to work in IT in the financial sector - a good 90+% of the admin staff would be utterly stumped if the computer didn't provide the answer.

Agreed, to some extent. I'll say this - the folks I know who never took math seriously can't do intermediate stuff now (Pythagorean theorem, basic angles, anything beyond area of a rectangle, etc.). Some of that is retention, some is proclivity. I think the latter is a lesser factor, as I know some folks who struggled more with math than me but can do more advanced stuff than me now, because they worked on it harder in school (I pretty much coasted on math). And I know tradesmen who couldn't graduate school who do intermediate geometry and basic trigonometry on a regular basis, and much better than I do - they just don't know that's what it is.

 

[Bruce7]

It does seem that "we" aren't really normal people though (normal being classified as the majority).

Most normal people go their entire lives without thinking about numbers - I've seen teenagers using the calculator on their phones to add up the price of 3 chocolate bars to discover whether they have enough money in their pocket...

Home repair is something to get a man in for.

I used to work in IT in the financial sector - a good 90+% of the admin staff would be utterly stumped if the computer didn't provide the answer.

Knowing Math is power.
Example: When I buy a new car and the salesman tries the math games, I can calculate in my head and turn the game on them.
Saving me thousands of dollars.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic. Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic. Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.

Algebra - Wikipedia

 

[pdg]

Knowing Math is power.
Example: When I buy a new car and the salesman tries the math games, I can calculate in my head and turn the game on them.
Saving me thousands of dollars.

I clicked agree to this, but I can only agree in theory...

I've never bought a new car, and I've only once bought a car from what could be described as a "salesman".

I used my version of car maths - for instance, my last car which I owned for 15 months.

Purchase price = £130
Total maintenance outlay = £150 (including a set of partworn tyres that I fitted myself)

Run it until something goes wrong (the gearbox started making a nasty noise, still worked, but couldn't be bothered to fix it).

Sell as spares for £100.

Total cost of ownership, excluding fuel = £12/month.


My current car was more to buy (£450) but I've had that for nearly 18 months and I see no reason it won't last a few years.

 

[pdg]

Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic. Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic. Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.

Algebra - Wikipedia

I'm considering algebra as a part of the wider world of mathematics - because it wasn't a separate subject at school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic. Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic. Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.

Algebra - Wikipedia

Agreed. I think I listed algebra, trigonometry, and geometry in one of my posts. I use algebra within the other two, so it's probably the more used set of principles in my case.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm considering algebra as a part of the wider world of mathematics - because it wasn't a separate subject at school.

We both did and did not separate it. Every year, we had a mathematics class. For 2-3 years, that math class was primarily algebra, and algebra showed up in all subsequent categories, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I clicked agree to this, but I can only agree in theory...

I've never bought a new car, and I've only once bought a car from what could be described as a "salesman".

I used my version of car maths - for instance, my last car which I owned for 15 months.

Purchase price = £130
Total maintenance outlay = £150 (including a set of partworn tyres that I fitted myself)

Run it until something goes wrong (the gearbox started making a nasty noise, still worked, but couldn't be bothered to fix it).

Sell as spares for £100.

Total cost of ownership, excluding fuel = £12/month.


My current car was more to buy (£450) but I've had that for nearly 18 months and I see no reason it won't last a few years.

In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.

 

[Bruce7]

Most of what all of you are describing is arithmetic. Don't conflate algebra with arithmetic. Algebra is a type of mathematics, it is not arithmetic.

Algebra - Wikipedia

It is true. if you think logically and are good at arithmetic you can figure things out,
But isn't that what Math is about using logic to figure things out?
Like gpseymour describing tradesman abilities to do Math (algebra, trigonometry, and geometry)
The tradesman may not have been taught in a class room setting, he learn by someone showing him and the practice on the job, sounds familiar.

It is just much easy to figure things out if you know Algebra, Trigonometry, Geometry,Calculus.
I can kick you, but it is a much better kick if I have been shown how and I practice.

 

[pdg]

In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.

Oh, they do exactly the same here. But I'd never buy a new car unless I was in a position to just open my wallet and pay cash - it just doesn't make any sort of sense to me.

I do like other people buying new cars though, don't get me wrong.

It means that in 5-10 years I can buy that exact car for 1/30 of the price (or less), do whatever I want to it without even considering stuff like resale or trade in penalties and if it comes to it, replace it every 6 weeks and still save money compared to finance payments.

The only possible advantage I can see to a new car is that less people will have farted in the seats...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the US, there's some funny math that happens, especially when you trade in a car. They'll balance discounts by giving less on trade-in, or by playing with the financing (if they are doing in-house financing), or by offering/not offering package deals on some options.

The car that I bought last time had 0% interest rate. The number that we played with was the monthly payment. In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".

 

[Bruce7]

Oh, they do exactly the same here. But I'd never buy a new car unless I was in a position to just open my wallet and pay cash - it just doesn't make any sort of sense to me.

I do like other people buying new cars though, don't get me wrong.

It means that in 5-10 years I can buy that exact car for 1/30 of the price (or less), do whatever I want to it without even considering stuff like resale or trade in penalties and if it comes to it, replace it every 6 weeks and still save money compared to finance payments.

The only possible advantage I can see to a new car is that less people will have farted in the seats...

You have a good point.
I buy new and drive it at less ten years. You get price breaks if you let them finance, because they get a kick back.
Then after a few payment you pay it off. In the U.S you do not pay penalties for paying off early. They get even by just dropping your credit score 10 or 20 points, but if your credit score is 850 it does not matter.

 

[Bruce7]

The car that I bought last time had 0% interest rate. The number that we played with was the monthly payment. In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".

'

"In stead of saying, "I think my trade in car worth ...", I said, "I like to keep my monthly payment under ...".
This makes you happy, that is a good thing.
I sold cars for a month when I went to College. It was not a good fit for me.
What you have described is a car salesman's dream.
So you are both happy.