A kata/form tip for beginning students

[Bill Mattocks]

Osu, very interesting that both you and JR137 refer to ura as doing a '360 degree spin'. I know it looks like that but it is very difficult to actually spin (move in circular motion) repeatedly and maintain a good stance. We actually teach ura differently. We break it down into a transition stance so the movement is more linear. There are no longer centrifugal forces that pull your balance off and I think you can move more rapidly and consistently this way.

Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu. We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning. Just swap feet around a bit.

 

[_Simon_]

Osu, very interesting that both you and JR137 refer to ura as doing a '360 degree spin'. I know it looks like that but it is very difficult to actually spin (move in circular motion) repeatedly and maintain a good stance. We actually teach ura differently. We break it down into a transition stance so the movement is more linear. There are no longer centrifugal forces that pull your balance off and I think you can move more rapidly and consistently this way.

Ah yep we're taught it like that too. Less of a spin and more of a two straight lines focus.

Eg moving forward in zenkutsu dachi, the back foot comes forward in a straight line while your body rotates, then that foot simply comes forward in a straight line. And yeah I agree it's much easier to keep your balance this way! I just said spin just as a default I guess hehe

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's another tip, although not every dojo does it. Ours has one wall with a very large mirror. We typically face it when doing kata. Practice your kata/forms facing other directions. This is harder than you might think; we use internal reference points to be certain of our directions. I have been asked, at times, to do my kata facing another direction. I've been asked to do it with a blindfold on. Results were less than acceptable, but I learned to add that to the list of things I practice regularly.

If you really want to get crazy, practice doing the inverse of the kata - stepping and punching and blocking with the hand opposite the one you normally use for each movement. Practice reverse breathing - breathe out where you would normally breathe in, and vice-versa. Practice the kata backwards, from the bow out to the bow in. You might be overwhelmed so take your time, but even experienced students find it difficult - more importantly, they sometimes find applications that they didn't realize were there.

This is huge. It’s amazing how hard it is to do the kata reversed or starting facing a different direction in the normal space.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is huge. It’s amazing how hard it is to do the kata reversed or starting facing a different direction in the normal space.

Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you will screw up.

 

[JR 137]

@Yokazuna514 and @_Simon_

Ura kata is actually part of our formal curriculum. Brown belt is responsible for Taikyoku 1 & 2 ura, and dan ranks up to I believe sandan or possibly yondan have progressively more difficult ones. I’ve done Pinan 1-3 and Gekisai Dai, and I’ve seen Tsuki-No done. There’s probably a few more.

We’ve got two acceptable ways to do them:
1. You can keep the back leg out like it is normally and do a huge spin, like the 270 degree spin in Taikyoku katas, only you to the complete 360

2. You can bend the back leg like the front leg, and turn the 360 degrees. You’re supposed to keep your head at the same level instead of bobbing up and down by coming up straight and back down into your stance. That’s a shorter way to do it and it just feels right to me. Most of us do it that way.

Both ways are kind of hard to describe. I don’t know of any good videos to link to.

I’m really not a fan of the ura katas beyond doing them in the dojo every now and then as a way to change it up. I don’t like them being formally in the syllabus, but it is what it is. I don’t think they’re really emphasized in testing, but I haven’t been through dan testing so I can’t say for certain. I think they’re probably there to make sure people are doing them and know how to do them, but people probably aren’t expected to do them to a high technical level like any other kata.

 

[_Simon_]

Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you will screw up.

Ah yep we've done this, a great exercise!

 

[_Simon_]

@Yokazuna514 and @_Simon_

Ura kata is actually part of our formal curriculum. Brown belt is responsible for Taikyoku 1 & 2 ura, and dan ranks up to I believe sandan or possibly yondan have progressively more difficult ones. I’ve done Pinan 1-3 and Gekisai Dai, and I’ve seen Tsuki-No done. There’s probably a few more.

We’ve got two acceptable ways to do them:
1. You can keep the back leg out like it is normally and do a huge spin, like the 270 degree spin in Taikyoku katas, only you to the complete 360

2. You can bend the back leg like the front leg, and turn the 360 degrees. You’re supposed to keep your head at the same level instead of bobbing up and down by coming up straight and back down into your stance. That’s a shorter way to do it and it just feels right to me. Most of us do it that way.

Both ways are kind of hard to describe. I don’t know of any good videos to link to.

I’m really not a fan of the ura katas beyond doing them in the dojo every now and then as a way to change it up. I don’t like them being formally in the syllabus, but it is what it is. I don’t think they’re really emphasized in testing, but I haven’t been through dan testing so I can’t say for certain. I think they’re probably there to make sure people are doing them and know how to do them, but people probably aren’t expected to do them to a high technical level like any other kata.

Ah yep, they were a part of our syllabus too. The Pinans in ura were.... uuuuugh haha. Some moves it was just hard to know when to do the spin.. and in Pinan 3, even the very last move (that jump to the right) had an air spin too! Even the mae geris were changed to be ushiro mawashi geri instead of the 3x mae geris, just to suit the ura.

And yeah agreed, doesn't make sense to be a part of the syllabus, especially cos there are so many. We also had tate (straight-line version) versions that were in the syllabus too (these were a piece of cake compared to ura...)

 

[JR 137]

Ah yep, they were a part of our syllabus too. The Pinans in ura were.... uuuuugh haha. Some moves it was just hard to know when to do the spin.. and in Pinan 3, even the very last move (that jump to the right) had an air spin too! Even the mae geris were changed to be ushiro mawashi geri instead of the 3x mae geris, just to suit the ura.

And yeah agreed, doesn't make sense to be a part of the syllabus, especially cos there are so many. We also had tate (straight-line version) versions that were in the syllabus too (these were a piece of cake compared to ura...)

We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.

So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.

Pinan 2 is actually harder to figure out - is the slide into kiba dachi a forward step or not? We don’t spin. Burg then there’s the 45 degree steps at the top and bottom of the embussen. They’re not straight forward steps, but they’re not turns either. We spin on those. When going up the embussen, where you come up in musubi dachi, side kick to the back, then step forward and do shuto mawashi stow uke, when do you spin? We kick, spin, block. When coming back down the center there are counts where you do hand techniques before you step, and counts where you step after the hands. When the step is first, you spin first; when the hands are first, you do the hands, then spin.

All that messes with your head. Add all the spinning and dizziness, and the first several times you do it, it messes with your head. Pinan 2 is way harder to do in ura than 3 IMO. The part in 3 that confuses people in 3 is when you’d normally spin after the nukite and into kiba dachi with tetsui. People sometimes spin twice. I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.

They can be fun to do, but I just don’t see the point in them formally being in the syllabus. But I’m not the boss, so I don’t make the rules.

 

[_Simon_]

We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.

So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.

Pinan 2 is actually harder to figure out - is the slide into kiba dachi a forward step or not? We don’t spin. Burg then there’s the 45 degree steps at the top and bottom of the embussen. They’re not straight forward steps, but they’re not turns either. We spin on those. When going up the embussen, where you come up in musubi dachi, side kick to the back, then step forward and do shuto mawashi stow uke, when do you spin? We kick, spin, block. When coming back down the center there are counts where you do hand techniques before you step, and counts where you step after the hands. When the step is first, you spin first; when the hands are first, you do the hands, then spin.

All that messes with your head. Add all the spinning and dizziness, and the first several times you do it, it messes with your head. Pinan 2 is way harder to do in ura than 3 IMO. The part in 3 that confuses people in 3 is when you’d normally spin after the nukite and into kiba dachi with tetsui. People sometimes spin twice. I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.

They can be fun to do, but I just don’t see the point in them formally being in the syllabus. But I’m not the boss, so I don’t make the rules.

That's fascinating, yeah you guys do it a little differently, and it makes sense why. It is hard to know when a spin is, as sometimes even if it's a 45° angle, there's still a step forwards in a sense... *brain meltdown*.

[QUOTE/]I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.[/QUOTE]

HAHAHAHA that so deserves a round of applause, I love that so much, that got a good laugh XD

 

[Yokozuna514]

We don’t do it that way. We just do a 360 spin on forward steps. No back spin kick/ushiro mawashi geri, and no jumping spin.

So for that kata, we don’t spin on the opening turn to the left as it’s not a forward step; it’s a turn. We don’t spin on the 180 turn either. Pinan 3 is pretty easy to do in ura for us.

Pinan 2 is actually harder to figure out - is the slide into kiba dachi a forward step or not? We don’t spin. Burg then there’s the 45 degree steps at the top and bottom of the embussen. They’re not straight forward steps, but they’re not turns either. We spin on those. When going up the embussen, where you come up in musubi dachi, side kick to the back, then step forward and do shuto mawashi stow uke, when do you spin? We kick, spin, block. When coming back down the center there are counts where you do hand techniques before you step, and counts where you step after the hands. When the step is first, you spin first; when the hands are first, you do the hands, then spin.

All that messes with your head. Add all the spinning and dizziness, and the first several times you do it, it messes with your head. Pinan 2 is way harder to do in ura than 3 IMO. The part in 3 that confuses people in 3 is when you’d normally spin after the nukite and into kiba dachi with tetsui. People sometimes spin twice. I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.

They can be fun to do, but I just don’t see the point in them formally being in the syllabus. But I’m not the boss, so I don’t make the rules.

That's fascinating, yeah you guys do it a little differently, and it makes sense why. It is hard to know when a spin is, as sometimes even if it's a 45° angle, there's still a step forwards in a sense... *brain meltdown*.

[QUOTE/]I jokingly didn’t spin at all one time. My instructor asked why I didn’t spin - I told him the ura cancels out the actual spin that’s supposed to be there.

HAHAHAHA that so deserves a round of applause, I love that so much, that got a good laugh XD[/QUOTE]
All the Pinan katas done in ura except for Pinan Ichi begin with a 'spin'. You prepare the block, 'spin', then finish the block in the correct stance. Pinan Ichi begins with mae gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi so the ura comes into the second movement. There are also peculiar differences in some of the Pinan katas when you do them in ura, that don't strictly follow the regular convention of the kata. The ushiro mawashi in Pinan San ura is a perfect example but there are a few others as well.

Ura, tate and ura/tate are not part of our formal syllabus but that doesn't mean we don't do them anyway . I had to do them all for my Shodan grading. It took a good 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours to get through all the katas and their variations. We also had to do Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke which I kind of like but it is not a kata that is widely done. Same with Juji kata and the Kihon katas. Let us also not forget the Sukogi katas. Fortunately we didn't have to do those in ura or tate.

Do you guys do Enshin Tensho ?

 

[Yokozuna514]

Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu. We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning. Just swap feet around a bit.

I would be interested in seeing this kata and the move you described. It sounds so familiar but it would be nice to be sure.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Very true. One of the other things we routinely do is turn the class 90 or 180 degrees and then do forms. Sometimes, we'll get 4 people of the same rank, stand them back to back, and have them all do the form at once, in a different direction. The lesson being: mind your own business. If you look at any of the others, you will screw up.

We do this as well. It is a clear indication if a student really 'knows' the movements or is just following others. Then again, it is pretty easy to see who is following others but it let's the student know without you having to say so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would be interested in seeing this kata and the move you described. It sounds so familiar but it would be nice to be sure.

Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu. Look at 29 to 35 seconds in. He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him. He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu. Look at 29 to 35 seconds in. He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him. He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.

Osu, thank you for sharing the video. I have never seen that kata before. I appreciate your comments about the turning 180 degrees but it is not exactly what 'ura' is in the sense of our discussion.

Sounds like you are describing one of the stance transitions in our Wansu. We turn 180 degrees to the rear to address an incoming attack, but 'in place' so we don't move off the fight line, and without any spinning. Just swap feet around a bit.

This is a video of Pinan Ichi in ura:

Ura's main function, as I understand it, is to not only reinforce the movements of the standard kata but to add a different aspect of balance and control when moving. Weight distribution on the foot is also important as the ability to move in ura is highly dependent on the weight being placed on chosoku instead of on the entire foot surface. This emphasis on weight distribution assists in understanding how to turn properly when doing circular movements such as spinning back kicks.

 

[_Simon_]

All the Pinan katas done in ura except for Pinan Ichi begin with a 'spin'. You prepare the block, 'spin', then finish the block in the correct stance. Pinan Ichi begins with mae gedan barai in zenkutsu dachi so the ura comes into the second movement. There are also peculiar differences in some of the Pinan katas when you do them in ura, that don't strictly follow the regular convention of the kata. The ushiro mawashi in Pinan San ura is a perfect example but there are a few others as well.

Ura, tate and ura/tate are not part of our formal syllabus but that doesn't mean we don't do them anyway . I had to do them all for my Shodan grading. It took a good 1 hour to 1-1/2 hours to get through all the katas and their variations. We also had to do Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke which I kind of like but it is not a kata that is widely done. Same with Juji kata and the Kihon katas. Let us also not forget the Sukogi katas. Fortunately we didn't have to do those in ura or tate.

Do you guys do Enshin Tensho ?

Very interesting... yeah I guess a few aspects of the kata have to change in order incorporate ura more efficiently.

Wow, your Shodan grading sounded fun . Havent heard of Kyokushin no kata Tsuki Uke, is it similar to Tsuki no kata? And yeah ours involved all Sokugu kata in ura and tate, didn't have the pleasure of experiencing them haha.

I've never heard of Enshin Tensho! Am curious, looked it up but couldn't find it anywhere at all.. just looked in my old syllabus and we have something called 'Enkei Tensho' at Sandan, but I have no idea what that is... multidirectional Tensho...?

 

[_Simon_]

Not my dojo but similar in how he is doing Wansu. Look at 29 to 35 seconds in. He does the famous 'dump' in Wansu, then sees an attacker coming from behind him. He does not 'wheel' to face him, but instead turns 180 degrees in place to stay on the fight line, and attacks the incoming punch with a chop to the arm.

Really cool kata, loved it. Have always heard of Wansu but never seen it. The fellow's kiai sounds similar to mine haha :S

 

[JR 137]

Osu, thank you for sharing the video. I have never seen that kata before. I appreciate your comments about the turning 180 degrees but it is not exactly what 'ura' is in the sense of our discussion.


This is a video of Pinan Ichi in ura:

Ura's main function, as I understand it, is to not only reinforce the movements of the standard kata but to add a different aspect of balance and control when moving. Weight distribution on the foot is also important as the ability to move in ura is highly dependent on the weight being placed on chosoku instead of on the entire foot surface. This emphasis on weight distribution assists in understanding how to turn properly when doing circular movements such as spinning back kicks.

The Pinan 1 Ura is exactly how we do ura kata. All spins were on steps forward, notably not on the first count where he stepped to his left and counts like that. And his spin is how I was describing mine - his feet come in closer rather than the back leg staying straight through the turn.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why he spun on the opening move of Pinan 3, but not in Pinan 1.

 

[hoshin1600]

I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible. Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point. Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" . I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
Kata is the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't want to offend or "trigger" anyone, so my apologies for the analogy but studying kata is like studying the Bible. Many students do kata like reading a newspaper or magazine. You don't read the Bible like you read a newspaper. Both the Bible and kata are there to draw deep meaning from them. It shouldn't be something you do lightly or superficially. I mean you can, but it misses the point. Someone in an earlier post called forms a " pattern" . I am sure that is the way they were taught but to me that is all wrong. It is so much more. The value of the Bible is not found in its binding or how many pages or the quality of the paper. The pages are necessary to draw out the meaning just as linked motion is necessary to draw meaning from the form. To not understand that is "not seeing the forest from the trees"
I was told once "the Bible doesn't mean, what it says.....it means MORE than it says."
Kata is the same.

This, as an absolute statement, presupposed that as the intent and purpose of forms. I have no doubt some forms were created with that approach in mind. I know with certainty that some were created for a more superficial purpose.

Here’s the rub (to me): my original intent in creating a form only matters somewhat. If someone uses them for purposes I didn’t intend, that’s fine...so long as they don’t try to get from them something that’s not in there. If they cross that line, they are likely to get wonky results. Trying to understand hip throw via kata would be a big mistake, for instance; it’s not in there, nor are the set-up mechanics.

 

[dvcochran]

The Pinan 1 Ura is exactly how we do ura kata. All spins were on steps forward, notably not on the first count where he stepped to his left and counts like that. And his spin is how I was describing mine - his feet come in closer rather than the back leg staying straight through the turn.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why he spun on the opening move of Pinan 3, but not in Pinan 1.

Does he do the spins on the heel of the foot? Is that how you teach them? That would be different to our teaching. We also turn forward instead of to the back. Sonal blocks are done slightly different also. Good form.